"Complaining" about Thai immigration issues while still loving Thailand

[natway09]

In so many ways I agree with this post,,,,,but not all.

Having lived in 5 foreign countries have had my fair share of Immigration challenges.

Many of the posts complaining about Immigration service & requirements come from

a reason called money.

To those who have to "borrow" 800,00 Bht need to ask the question "should I be here ? " 

I believe the answer is NO.

To those who have it but complain about it all the time  I say that you need to do some soul searching

as to if you really belong.

You cannot expect the Thai people to "look after you" (& cannot afford to) in case of sickness, accident or mishap so I think (apart from visa exempt real tourists)

the Swedish model is a good idea of HAVING to have full insurance to stay long term.

We have no rights to expect their overstretched social security system to cover us foreigners who choose to live here.

To those with "preexisting conditions" maybe a rethink is in order.

In closing there are many retired expats here "that really should GO HOME

[sucit]

The problem with most (almost all really) complaints is foreigners do not fess up and admit it was their own abuses that caused the problems. How many people out of 100 who have been in Thailand a long time have never used an improper method of staying here? I would say that is less than 5%.

 

We have caused our own problems. 

 

As to the original point, sure it is ok to complain, but if you are not pointing the finger at yourself, that is when you are way off base. And simply, nobody likes to point the finger at themselves, the truth just is not as much fun as baseless whining and complaining. 

Edited January 19, 2020 by sucit

[villagefarang]

On 1/18/2020 at 12:50 PM, kenk24 said:

On 1/18/2020 at 9:22 AM, MadMuhammad said:

I have a differing opinion so I’m an apologist. Ok....

Sorry. I guess I am an apologist too... Sorry sorry sorry... 

Me too...................................????

[Isaan Alan]

Yes you nailed it. There are some very nasty trolls and smug serial repliers on this forum. "Why don't you go back to where you came from?" blah blah blah. "If you can't afford the 800k then you shouldn't be here" blah blah blah

In this thread it's "how dare you complain". Nobody likes a whiny Eeyore but my experience with years in China is that ex-pats need to vent sometimes and to release real or self-inflicted pressure

But there some really helpful, knowledgeable, sympathetic people here too. My experience is that you will get several helpful answers.

Sad that you have to wade thru the spew of a few shrivelled souls to get to the good stuff.

That's just life it seems.

[bwpage3]

On 1/18/2020 at 8:25 AM, Isaanbiker said:

Op, if you don't like it here, please hopp on the next plane!

 

    I really appreciate that you've pointed that out. It's my 18th year here and I could hardly go back to a country in Europe I'm not familiar with anymore. 

 

   Here I've got my pick up, my bigger bike, my little bike and we live in  a great house that's not overpriced. Perfect. 

 

   It's never cold and the few weeks rain isn't that bad after all. 

 

  Would I now have to leave immediately, I'd come to a country where I'm totally out. I do not exist there anymore. My address is here.

 

 It takes a while to get back into the system and they'll of course try to make it difficult for you.

 

Starting without a vehicle, apartment, (flat), house, but hopefully not at a house for homeless. 

 

And getting used to this life again is almost impossible. 

 

  Not too many great chances ahead. "No country for old men..."

 

    Enjoy life to the fullest!

 

            

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's monsoon season from June through the end of October.

 

How is that a few weeks of rain?

[AlanSheyla]

Very well said, I have this argument with my Thai wife when I get upset at something / someone for being completely void of logic e.g riders on the wrong side of the road......  It pisses me off no end. But they dont voice their opinions, its against the culture to cause conflict where i come from the complete opposite. I say to her think about the mother that lost her child to one of the estimated 22,000 fatal accidents last year. If you speak up that figure would halve. I really do love this country, I love the freedom I feel in comparison to an Incorporated western slave house. But <deleted> 22,000 people should not die and people should be angry.

 

Thanks for the post 

[AlanSheyla]

On 1/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, natway09 said:

In so many ways I agree with this post,,,,,but not all.

Having lived in 5 foreign countries have had my fair share of Immigration challenges.

Many of the posts complaining about Immigration service & requirements come from

a reason called money.

To those who have to "borrow" 800,00 Bht need to ask the question "should I be here ? " 

I believe the answer is NO.

To those who have it but complain about it all the time  I say that you need to do some soul searching

as to if you really belong.

You cannot expect the Thai people to "look after you" (& cannot afford to) in case of sickness, accident or mishap so I think (apart from visa exempt real tourists)

the Swedish model is a good idea of HAVING to have full insurance to stay long term.

We have no rights to expect their overstretched social security system to cover us foreigners who choose to live here.

To those with "preexisting conditions" maybe a rethink is in order.

In closing there are many retired expats here "that really should GO HOME

= Economy bright lol (NOT) you dont know the circumstances of each person, maybe they invested all their cash in a hotel or restaurant and live off the cashflow, you have a job not a business i can tell by your post. (or retired off having a job all your life) Any business owner understands that its not easy to produce that all the time if they havea  small business. Farang are not all rich lol 
 

Edited January 21, 2020 by AlanSheyla

[tom in bangkok]

People are at different stages of moving/living here -- not everyone has been here for 10+ years and already adjusted to life in another country / Thailand.

 

"Go home" replies to someone complaining or scrutinising something about the processes for Thai immigration or day-to-day life in Thailand are unhelpful. Why should someone apologise for not having the experience of living here for 15 years?

[scottiddled]

@BigStar

You make some excellent points, and I suspect if we discussed specific elements of Thai bureaucracy or even actual cases of farang-on-bureaucracy "action," we'd probably agree 95+% of the time. I also think your "trichotomy" of those who face bureaucratic obstacles is a fair way of framing things, and may copy your use of "rubbish sweepers." That said, of your dissection of my position reads too much into what is not there, or falls victim to the same critique you're launching, but that's really just meta-level stuff, honestly.

 

A line-by-line of your line-by-line would be too unwieldy, and I'm too busy to undertake it right now. Your words certainly deserve a fuller reply, but I'll focus on just one thing for today.

 

On 1/18/2020 at 7:50 PM, BigStar said:

We're talking effective remedy. The remedy of changing Thailand isn’t a remedy but a fantasy. No, Thai authorities pay no attention whatsoever to complaints and brilliant solutions given on the forum no matter how many there are. Never have. Ain’t gon’ be no free beer & pussy, no waivers of passport checks, no permanent visa on arrival, no price ceiling of 100 baht on everything. Change will always be a constant. 

Hence to try to justify a whinge by pretending it may make some difference to anything is self-serving nonsense.

You premise this by breaking complaints down into three intuitive categories, essentially whining (I despise the term whinging), venting, and complaining with a purpose. Setting aside the fact that the lines between these categories can be blurry, and that a particular person can find themselves bouncing between them from day to day, I have two more serious objections. 

 

First, you're engaging in some question begging (and arguably a bizarre form of post hoc fallacy) when you cut off the possibility of complaining with a purpose by declaring that change is impossible. Based on the distinctions you draw between complaining and whining, the impact of the complaint is irrelevant. What matters? According to the source you invoked, the "motivation" for expression. Complaining entails "voicing fair and legitimate dissatisfactions with the goal" of improving the status quo. The likelihood of success matters not. And even though it doesn't matter, you haven't convinced me that change is impossible. Therefore, someone can certainly put forth reasonable critiques of Thai bureaucracy with the [tiniest bit of] hope that things may improve. 

 

Second, you slide very casually from dismissing the potential of complaining to labelling unsuccessful complaints whining. Your own source sees things differently: "When we voice legitimate dissatisfactions but do so without the goal" of changing Thailand, "we are merely venting." It is only when "the dissatisfactions...are trivial or inconsequential" that we enter the realm of whining.

 

Of course, this is all subjective. One person's "unnecessarilly wasted 2.5 hours" at Chaengwattana is another's "just go with it." It's all fluid, too. I've read about people's stories of BIG PROBLEMS with life-changing consequences, expressed franctically and without a path forward. I've read about. On the other hand, I've seen relatively minor inconveniences rationally explained down to the specific form or step that ought to be eliminated. As someone once said, it's a rich tapestry, brother. Accordingly, I see [varying] value in all sorts of complaining and venting. 

 

And sure, I've read a few stories that approach the trivial, with little value. It's fair to call them whining. I won't go so far as to say publicly deploying the "if you don't like it, get out" trope is warranted, for reasons I think I've made clear. So we'll disagree on that. But privately invoking it to a friend or colleague can justified, if that person truly would benefit from being elsewhere--or from the wake-up call of having to think about their happiness in such stark terms. 

[BigStar]

6 minutes ago, scottiddled said:

First, you're engaging in some question begging (and arguably a bizarre form of post hoc fallacy) when you cut off the possibility of complaining with a purpose by declaring that change is impossible. Based on the distinctions you draw between complaining and whining, the impact of the complaint is irrelevant. What matters? According to the source you invoked, the "motivation" for expression. Complaining entails "voicing fair and legitimate dissatisfactions with the goal" of improving the status quo.

No, you've merely made the wrong assumptions about what "goal of improving" means for a true complaint, again conveniently trying to turn "whinging" into "complaining." "Improving" means improving  the status quo of how you yourself interact with Immigration. They are not going to change for you based on anything you do or say--except perhaps to make it more difficult for you if you confront them in person. To make that the "goal" is not legitimate because it's merely a fantasy and so all you have is a whinge, not a complaint.

 

Then it really comes down to improving your own understanding of the immigration procedures applicable to yourself and improving your methods of meeting them, if you can, most efficiently with the least amount of stress to yourself. I gave a list of general principles in my post.

 

So part of a complaint is seeking information in a rational manner. Fortunately we have knowledgeable members here who are willing and able to provide that information, though they have to waste time filtering through countless whinges and entirely useless brilliant solutions for changing the procedures for more convenience.

 

On occasion the IO has made some mistake or misinterpreted the law. Getting correct information here then going for redress armed with evidence can then change the situation wrongly encountered. That would be resolution or sincere attempt at resolution of a complaint.

 

The other part of changing the status quo is changing your attitude so that you don't much mind Immigration procedures. That's easier after you've got all the (relatively) efficient methods down. It sometimes then comes down to the waiting time, which you hate. You decide it can be made interesting and not wasted. Read a book, surf around, catch up on emails, watch a movie, drink beer, have a quickie, whatever. You think, "It's only once a year, could be much worse," "think what the IOs are going thru, looking out a sea of cargo shorts manspread on the seats, checked shirts from the East End Thrift Store hanging over beer bellies, senile idiots who can't fill out a form, don't understand, want to argue . . . . day after day after day" etc. etc. Anybody can find something to do during that waiting time, unless it's so brief you can just enjoy observing and maybe listening to music on your player.

 

So a complaint can address the mental attitude as well. Together, these end the complaint, since that was the legitimate goal. If not, then the complaint can be resolved by leaving Thailand. Yes, that can be inconvenient. But where's the signed contract you got when you entered Thailand that it was always going to be easy for you to stay here forever, that requirements would never change? If a contract isn't honored, then you definitely have a legit complaint.

 

 

1 hour ago, scottiddled said:

 

Second, you slide very casually from dismissing the potential of complaining to labelling unsuccessful complaints whining. Your own source sees things differently: "When we voice legitimate dissatisfactions but do so without the goal" of changing Thailand, "we are merely venting." It is only when "the dissatisfactions...are trivial or inconsequential" that we enter the realm of whining.

Venting is the grey area between but rarely happens here because the vent is usually accompanied by a general bash of Thailand and "Thainess" with no responsibility acknowledged for oneself. In many cases the ventee made a conscious decision assuming the everlasting permanency of something or didn't perform due diligence, perhaps because just too ignorant, e. g. hedge currency if you're going to reside for long periods of time in a country using a different currency. Now you can argue that a "vent" about being cut off in a roundabout is a legitimate vent except that it's trivial and to be expected. Hence it's a whinge like all the others. If you're cut off, hit, and hospitalized at your expense, you do have cause for a vent, unless it's accompanied by the usual bashing. However, many a poster here will wish examine the appropriateness of your driving skills for Thailand. 

 

So we may have a vent or two here once in a blue moon, but mostly just whinges.

 

1 hour ago, scottiddled said:

And even though it doesn't matter, you haven't convinced me that change is impossible. Therefore, someone can certainly put forth reasonable critiques of Thai bureaucracy with the [tiniest bit of] hope that things may improve. 

Well, without that "hope" then we'd have no excuse for our useless whinging--our "critiques" we love so much--and that would be just awfully inconvenient, exposing us as, well, maybe just childish. Flat Earthers, BTW, aren't convinced the world is round.

 

If you had any reason for hope then you could point to an example of whinging here, or--before the forum existed--in letters to editors of the newspapers, that has had any positive, measurable result whatsoever. But you have no example. In fact we've already been through a similar great whinging fest in 2003 with the INSANE rise of visa fees that were OMG going to drive all the Golden Egg Layers out of Thailand, the only source of income, and force all the Thais to go back to their rice fields! How'd that work out for us?????