TM-87 rejected at Jomtien today

[OZinPattaya]

All my docs were in order for a tourist stamp to non-O based on retirement today. The problem was with the copy of my condo lease. IO tells me that because the owner of my condo is not Thai (he’s from Hong Kong) I need a copy of his work permit, or he has do something, I hardly know what, to go through a Thai person, in which case I would then need a copy of the housebook. This is nuts. I can pretty much guarantee he has no work permit—why the heck should he? Any suggestions other than me moving to Vietnam and saying goodbye to Thailand?

[HampiK]

Try to figure out what else they accept others than a work permit. If they really requested only work permit from the foreigner, then I guess your second choice is to do a short rental (1 Month) for only the Non-O stamp ????.

 

Maybe some other users here have a better option for you. Often the Immigration persons make up some own rules...

[OZinPattaya]

6 minutes ago, HampiK said:

Try to figure out what else they accept others than a work permit. If they really requested only work permit from the foreigner, then I guess your second choice is to do a short rental (1 Month) for only the Non-O stamp ????.

 

Maybe some other users here have a better option for you. Often the Immigration persons make up some own rules...

 

Rules state that lease must be 3 months or longer. “At least 3 months”

[ubonjoe]

Not the first time I have read that Jomtien was saying the owner needed a work permit. Utter nonsense or an attempt to push you to use an agent.

One way to get around the problem is for the owner to contact an agent to handle the leasing of the property.

[OZinPattaya]

A woman in the condo juristic office handled the lease on behalf of the foreign Owner (which my feeling is she’s not supposed to do in her juristic capacity). I pay rent and utilities through her. But I’m sure she wouldn’t have a housebook for this property under her name. Have no idea how long it might take for owner to go through agent to make this happen, whether I could even make them understand the dilemma, or if they’d have any interest doing this. Might be easier for me to abandon current year lease and find new Thai-owned condo to rent. Not sure what consequences could be for me to abandon lease other than forfeiture of security deposit. 
 

It’s pretty obvious that Jomtien IO’s invent reasons to reject non-o conversions. This has got to be one of the silliest reasons to date I’ve ever heard of.

[OZinPattaya]

Thinking of going to TikToc agency today in Jomtien. I’m just worried that even an agency might fail here and I don’t want to risk 15-20k baht if I don’t know if it will work

[ubonjoe]

42 minutes ago, OZinPattaya said:

A woman in the condo juristic office handled the lease on behalf of the foreign Owner (which my feeling is she’s not supposed to do in her juristic capacity). I pay rent and utilities through her.

Perhaps have her and the owner create a simple contract for her to handle the lease and attach a copy of it to the  lease agreement and etc. That would eliminate the work permit being needed.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, OZinPattaya said:

I can pretty much guarantee he has no work permit—why the heck should he?

Because unless he’s using a third party to manage the letting he’s working and needs a work permit.

 

That said it’s wrong that immigration punish you.

 

If he appointed a letting agent that should get around the problem.

Edited January 15, 2020 by elviajero

[ubonjoe]

6 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Because unless he’s using a third party to manage the letting he’s working and needs a work permit.

 

How would a person living outside the country get a work permit?

He is not breaking the latest definition of work. It is shown here. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZYhf0Xt6ktzXVILU1G7Kxuo3RKop00k8/view

Jomtien is the only immigration office that has come up with that nonsense requirement.

[elviajero]

6 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

How would a person living outside the country get a work permit?

He is not breaking the latest definition of work. It is shown here. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZYhf0Xt6ktzXVILU1G7Kxuo3RKop00k8/view

Jomtien is the only immigration office that has come up with that nonsense requirement.

I agree it's nonsense. But where in the new rules does it exempt landlords (managing a property) from requiring a work permit?

[BritTim]

18 minutes ago, elviajero said:

33 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

How would a person living outside the country get a work permit?

He is not breaking the latest definition of work. It is shown here. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZYhf0Xt6ktzXVILU1G7Kxuo3RKop00k8/view

Jomtien is the only immigration office that has come up with that nonsense requirement.

I agree it's nonsense. But where in the new rules does it exempt landlords (managing a property) from requiring a work permit?

If you are not allowed to sell goods or services from outside Thailand to people or organisations inside Thailand (does this also work in the opposite direction?) I wonder how many companies and individuals are in breech of Thai labour laws.

[bkk6060]

I believe a work permit should be required.

After all, rental property is in fact a business that is generating income.

Many foreigners renting out property long and short term. some with numerous properties ( a Chinese woman has 20 properties at The Base) making a bundle.

Mostly if not all paying no income tax, rents being directly deposited into their bank accounts.  Seems criminal truly.

Hope they crack down on this more especially with the ST rentals.

Edited January 15, 2020 by bkk6060

[Don Mega]

Can you use immigration at Sriracha ?

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

I believe a work permit should be required.

After all, rental property is in fact a business that is generating income.

Many foreigners renting out property long and short term. some with numerous properties ( a Chinese woman has 20 properties at The Base) making a bundle.

Not the same in the case mentioned in this topic. Apparently the owner is jus renting out his condo that is certainly not the same a owning several properties as a business.

[Kenny Boy]

I had exactly the same problem there a couple of years back.

The female immigration officer offered to do it for a 20k 'fee'

Ended up going through an agent and paying even more !!

[steve187]

as i see it the answer is to get the non 'O' from outside the country and then do the yearly extension in the last 30 days of that entry, but the problem of the work permit may come up at yearly extension time.

or get someone Thai to give you a contract either a fresh contract and move or a 'fake' contract and stay were you are,

[BritTim]

36 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

I believe a work permit should be required.

After all, rental property is in fact a business that is generating income.

Many foreigners renting out property long and short term. some with numerous properties ( a Chinese woman has 20 properties at The Base) making a bundle.

Mostly if not all paying no income tax, rents being directly deposited into their bank accounts.  Seems criminal truly.

Hope they crack down on this more especially with the ST rentals.

If you are, say, in Malaysia, and want to sell something on Craigslist, in your opinion, would you be able to accept a buyer in Thailand? Surely, according to your logic, you would be earning income from someone resident in Thailand, and this would be illegal without a work permit. I think this is just stupid. You should be able to hold Thai investments without being considered in breech of Thai labour laws.

[elviajero]

32 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Not the same in the case mentioned in this topic. Apparently the owner is jus renting out his condo that is certainly not the same a owning several properties as a business.

It's a business whether you are letting 1 or 100 properties. The issue is in the management of the letting. If you use a third party to manage the property there is no issue. If you manage it yourself, as a foreigner, it's work.

[jackdd]

7 minutes ago, BritTim said:

If you are, say, in Malaysia, and want to sell something on Craigslist, in your opinion, would you be able to accept a buyer in Thailand? Surely, according to your logic, you would be earning income from someone resident in Thailand, and this would be illegal without a work permit. I think this is just stupid. You should be able to hold Thai investments without being considered in breech of Thai labour laws.

To make the example right you would have to compare it to this:

You have products in stock in Thailand. You live in Malaysia from where you advertise these products to people in Thailand.

In case somebody buys one of the products you would either have to travel to Thailand and take the product to the post office (which would be considered work and require a work permit), or you would need to pay somebody in Thailand who does this job for you.

Immigration now wants to either see a work permit, so that they know the owner is allowed to do this job, or they want to see some kind of proof (like a contract), that the owner pays somebody in Thailand who is allowed to do this job (a property management agency in case of the condo)

 

Edited January 15, 2020 by jackdd

[john terry1001]

1 hour ago, Don Mega said:

Can you use immigration at Sriracha ?

Jomtien and Si Racha are both part of Chonburi Immigration.

[Mattd]

13 minutes ago, john terry1001 said:

Jomtien and Si Racha are both part of Chonburi Immigration.

Sriracha will only accept if you are living in their jurisdiction, they will not process if living in Banglamung district.

[peterbkk2]

3 hours ago, OZinPattaya said:

Thinking of going to TikToc agency today in Jomtien. I’m just worried that even an agency might fail here and I don’t want to risk 15-20k baht if I don’t know if it will work

There are other agents that will charge less and are not worried about circumstances surrounding the lease.

[OZinPattaya]

So I visited an agent today in Jomtien (Tiktok) and the fee would be 20k (3-month non-o plus 1-year extension for 15-month stamp). They "guarantee" a successful outcome--never have had a rejected application, they say--and no possibility of overstay. My visa exempt extension expires on Feb. 9th. Agent told me I would probably not get my passport with stamp back till Feb 11th-14th (I thought it took approx. 15 days from start to finish, no?). This seems strange to me. She seemed to imply that I would be in the "system" with new non-o long before Feb. 9th. It just worries me that I would not get my passport back with new non-o stamp (and therefore be able to know for sure application was successful) till AFTER my current visa exempt expires. Any advice welcome here. I do not want to risk an overstay. If I go through this agent, is a successful outcome pretty much guaranteed? Tiktok seems to have good reviews. 

 

Agent wasn't surprised by the Jomtien requirement of the work permit/Tabien bahn. She has even heard of cases, if I heard her right, where they required a copy of the chanote in addition. Not even sure what that is. "They are trying to push foreigners out," she said. You think? And obviously not just the poor ones, as others on TVF have implied. I got the 800k right there. I got health insurance. 

 

So I need to make a decision here before 11AM tomorrow, our appointment to go to Jomtien immigration for apparently a photograph. How much do I really want to retire in Thailand? I have to ask myself. Should I instead stay in Thailand till Feb. 9th researching retirement in Vietnam (Nha Trang, Ho Anh, Da Nang). Let's face it. This is basically a 20k kickback I'd be paying to a country that has nothing but official contempt for western long-stayers. I've got a very nasty taste in my mouth about this country right now. 

 

Thanks to all for the quick posts. 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2020 by OZinPattaya

[jackdd]

26 minutes ago, OZinPattaya said:

"They are trying to push foreigners out," she said. You think? And obviously not just the poor ones, as others on TVF have implied. I got the 800k right there. I got health insurance. 

They aren't trying to push foreigners out, they are just trying to push you to use an agent, so they get a kickback.

By giving in to such an illegal extortion you would of course also support them in further tightening the rules in the future.

Edited January 15, 2020 by jackdd

[Don Mega]

1 hour ago, Mattd said:

Sriracha will only accept if you are living in their jurisdiction, they will not process if living in Banglamung district.

Interesting I live in Banglamung and they have no problem giving me a residency certificate and my employer does my 90 day reporting there too, compared to a visa though it is fairly minor so maybe that why they allow them.

[Gweiloman]

29 minutes ago, OZinPattaya said:

 

So I need to make a decision here before 11AM tomorrow, our appointment to go to Jomtien immigration for apparently a photograph. How much do I really want to retire in Thailand? I have to ask myself. Should I instead stay in Thailand till Feb. 9th researching retirement in Vietnam (Nha Trang, Ho Anh, Da Nang). Let's face it. This is basically a 20k kickback I'd be paying to a country that has nothing but official contempt for western long-stayers. I've got a very nasty taste in my mouth about this country right now. 

 

Thanks to all for the quick posts. 

 

 

You have to ask yourself, what is your reason for wanting to retire in Thailand and specifically Pattaya. For sex? Booze? Food?

Now is the time to think long and hard, before you become too heavily invested, like many here. 

[OZinPattaya]

2 hours ago, Kenny Boy said:

I had exactly the same problem there a couple of years back.

The female immigration officer offered to do it for a 20k 'fee'

Ended up going through an agent and paying even more !!

Yes, why is it every time I have a problem with an IO it is always some 30-50 year old, unattractive, sourpuss of a harpy? Where do they find these women? There must be a repository somewhere for aging Thai women who have been cheated on by western men, and immigration draws from this dubious pool almost exclusively for its officers. I thought I got luck today as a young affable looking male was working the visa conversion desk. Then my number was drawn and this young man escorted me straight into a back room where the scariest female Thai I've ever seen awaited me. 

[kingofthemountain]

Reading this i am more than happy my condo owner is Thai.

I feel very sorry for the OP, he has a deposit for his condo

and now a Thai health insurance, all of this is lose if he decides to

ride out of Thailand now,

On the other hand 20 000 bahts is not a little amount, and it's encouraging the 

already rampant corruption here.

In his position i should probably try to get an O visa out of Thailand, in a neighbour country

but first get out of my actual rent (Try to put the pressure on the owner, after all he should

be the one worried about the authorities knowing now he runs a bisness here on an illegal form)

and try to have anew one with a Thai owner.

Good luck anyway to the OP

[OZinPattaya]

12 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

You have to ask yourself, what is your reason for wanting to retire in Thailand and specifically Pattaya. For sex? Booze? Food?

Now is the time to think long and hard, before you become too heavily invested, like many here. 

I never really intended to retire permanently in Pattaya, which I like mainly  for the convenience: Good hospitals, dentists, baht bus system, every convenience at your fingertips and still a small city. I've been avoiding the bar scene. 

[OZinPattaya]

1 minute ago, kingofthemountain said:

Reading this i am more than happy my condo owner is Thai.

I feel very sorry for the OP, he has a deposit for his condo

and now a Thai health insurance, all of this is lose if he decides to

ride out of Thailand now,

On the other hand 20 000 bahts is not a little amount, and it's encouraging the 

already rampant corruption here.

In his position i should probably try to get an O visa out of Thailand, in a neighbour country

but first get out of my actual rent (Try to put the pressure on the owner, after all he should

be the one worried about the authorities knowing now he runs a bisness here on an illegal form)

and try to have anew one with a Thai owner.

Good luck anyway to the OP

Fortunately I have an international Healthcare provider, not a Thai one. I never considered getting a non-O outside of Thailand. You can get this from any consulate, like HCMC? Any special pitfalls or difficulties here? I already have one SETV plus extension, a visa stamp and extension. If I got a non-o from outside Thailand i'd be worried about being turned away at the port of entry. Three back to backs.