TM-87 rejected at Jomtien today

[kingofthemountain]

17 minutes ago, OZinPattaya said:

Fortunately I have an international Healthcare provider, not a Thai one. I never considered getting a non-O outside of Thailand. You can get this from any consulate, like HCMC? Any special pitfalls or difficulties here? I already have one SETV plus extension, a visa stamp and extension. If I got a non-o from outside Thailand i'd be worried about being turned away at the port of entry. Three back to backs. 

 

 

There are a lot of discussions on the forum about the O visa 

and how to get it in the neighbouring countries, I recomand you to read some of thems

I am not at all the specialist on the visa questions, UbonJoe or PeterDenis would be able to

give you better and reliable answers to you than me on this points

Edited January 15, 2020 by kingofthemountain

[elviajero]

34 minutes ago, OZinPattaya said:

Fortunately I have an international Healthcare provider, not a Thai one. I never considered getting a non-O outside of Thailand. You can get this from any consulate, like HCMC?

You should be able to get a Single Entry Non O from most embassies/consulates. HCMC is one.

 

34 minutes ago, OZinPattaya said:

Any special pitfalls or difficulties here? I already have one SETV plus extension, a visa stamp and extension. If I got a non-o from outside Thailand i'd be worried about being turned away at the port of entry. Three back to backs. 

There is almost zero chance of you being turned away with a Non Immigrant visa. There is, however, a possibility (unlikely) of being turned away with a Tourist visa.

[Lovethailandelite]

3 hours ago, steve187 said:

 

or get someone Thai to give you a contract either a fresh contract and move or a 'fake' contract and stay were you are,

Probably not the best idea considering Jomtien over the last few months, have started to single out a few new applications for a home visit.Blame those people that were staying in hotels and got caught out. Jomtien don't all allow hotel addresses to be used for extensions

[Lovethailandelite]

1 hour ago, OZinPattaya said:

So I visited an agent today in Jomtien (Tiktok) and the fee would be 20k (3-month non-o plus 1-year extension for 15-month stamp). They "guarantee" a successful outcome--never have had a rejected application, they say--and no possibility of overstay. My visa exempt extension expires on Feb. 9th. Agent told me I would probably not get my passport with stamp back till Feb 11th-14th (I thought it took approx. 15 days from start to finish, no?). This seems strange to me. She seemed to imply that I would be in the "system" with new non-o long before Feb. 9th. It just worries me that I would not get my passport back with new non-o stamp (and therefore be able to know for sure application was successful) till AFTER my current visa exempt expires. Any advice welcome here. I do not want to risk an overstay. If I go through this agent, is a successful outcome pretty much guaranteed? Tiktok seems to have good reviews. 

 

Agent wasn't surprised by the Jomtien requirement of the work permit/Tabien bahn. She has even heard of cases, if I heard her right, where they required a copy of the chanote in addition. Not even sure what that is. "They are trying to push foreigners out," she said. You think? And obviously not just the poor ones, as others on TVF have implied. I got the 800k right there. I got health insurance. 

 

So I need to make a decision here before 11AM tomorrow, our appointment to go to Jomtien immigration for apparently a photograph. How much do I really want to retire in Thailand? I have to ask myself. Should I instead stay in Thailand till Feb. 9th researching retirement in Vietnam (Nha Trang, Ho Anh, Da Nang). Let's face it. This is basically a 20k kickback I'd be paying to a country that has nothing but official contempt for western long-stayers. I've got a very nasty taste in my mouth about this country right now. 

 

Thanks to all for the quick posts. 

 

 

You may want to reflect on the fact, that once you use an agent in Pattaya to get an extension, you will find it very difficult to break away. Particularly using an agent to get the O visa to start the extension. You will find that out should you ever decide to move province and attempt to use another immigration office to renew the extension at the end of the year

[BritTim]

6 hours ago, jackdd said:

To make the example right you would have to compare it to this:

You have products in stock in Thailand. You live in Malaysia from where you advertise these products to people in Thailand.

In case somebody buys one of the products you would either have to travel to Thailand and take the product to the post office (which would be considered work and require a work permit), or you would need to pay somebody in Thailand who does this job for you.

Immigration now wants to either see a work permit, so that they know the owner is allowed to do this job, or they want to see some kind of proof (like a contract), that the owner pays somebody in Thailand who is allowed to do this job (a property management agency in case of the condo)

Your example only applies if you claim that an owner of an apartment cannot collect the rent without being physically present in Thailand. That might be true if you have a problem tenant (in which case, maybe, you contact a lawyer to deal with the situation on your behalf) but not in the general case.

[jackdd]

10 minutes ago, BritTim said:

Your example only applies if you claim that an owner of an apartment cannot collect the rent without being physically present in Thailand. That might be true if you have a problem tenant (in which case, maybe, you contact a lawyer to deal with the situation on your behalf) but not in the general case.

In 99%+ of cases when renting out a place, the owner and the tenent will meet at the property (if a property management company was not involved), inspect the property and sign the contract. So this is what the immigration officer is assuming if OP can't prove the involvement of another party (i don't think it's fair from an IO to deny somebody a service because the landlord might be breaking a law, but that's a different topic)

I don't want to say that it's completely impossible to rent out a condo/house without being in Thailand and without a company/agent, but it's highly unlikely that somebody rents a place long term without ever having seen it in real, the contract is done through mail, the key comes by mail, you make a video call to inspect the property and so on

Edited January 15, 2020 by jackdd

[OZinPattaya]

4 hours ago, Lovethailandelite said:

You may want to reflect on the fact, that once you use an agent in Pattaya to get an extension, you will find it very difficult to break away. Particularly using an agent to get the O visa to start the extension. You will find that out should you ever decide to move province and attempt to use another immigration office to renew the extension at the end of the year

Okay, now you've worried me. Can you please elaborate? I don't understand why trying to renew a retirement extension in a different province should be dependent on how you procured the non-o to begin with. Because, obviously, if using a agent now means I will always have to use an agent in the future if I decide to move to a different province, which is very likely, makes me leaving Thailand for good a much easier choice. 

[OZinPattaya]

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

In 99%+ of cases when renting out a place, the owner and the tenent will meet at the property (if a property management company was not involved), inspect the property and sign the contract. So this is what the immigration officer is assuming if OP can't prove the involvement of another party (i don't think it's fair from an IO to deny somebody a service because the landlord might be breaking a law, but that's a different topic)

I don't want to say that it's completely impossible to rent out a condo/house without being in Thailand and without a company/agent, but it's highly unlikely that somebody rents a place long term without ever having seen it in real, the contract is done through mail, the key comes by mail, you make a video call to inspect the property and so on

Completely impossible? What prevents it? Owner does not need to be in Thailand. Owner very often is not in Thailand. Owner often lists condo on some website and leases personally. Then who actually shows the condo? Your everyday juristic person in lobby will be more than happy to do this for a little money from owner. Or whatever Thai person. Why would this be a challenge to an absentee owner? This is done dozens of times a day at my condo. 

 

I should add that not only will the ladies in the juristic office be more than happy to show a prospective renter a property, provide the key, facilitate the transaction on behalf of the absentee landlord, she will also broker the deal even though--I strongly suspect, but could be wrong--it is actually a violation of Thai law or regulations for juristic personnel to broker properties. Which is done nevertheless on a routine basis at least in Pattaya. Why would an absentee landlord prefer this? To avoid having to pay the substantial commissions demanded by legitimate Thai leasing agencies. I didn't understand this dynamic when I first leased my condo. Now I do, alas, too late for me. 

Edited January 15, 2020 by OZinPattaya

[BritTim]

49 minutes ago, jackdd said:

In 99%+ of cases when renting out a place, the owner and the tenent will meet at the property (if a property management company was not involved), inspect the property and sign the contract. So this is what the immigration officer is assuming if OP can't prove the involvement of another party (i don't think it's fair from an IO to deny somebody a service because the landlord might be breaking a law, but that's a different topic)

I don't want to say that it's completely impossible to rent out a condo/house without being in Thailand and without a company/agent, but it's highly unlikely that somebody rents a place long term without ever having seen it in real, the contract is done through mail, the key comes by mail, you make a video call to inspect the property and so on

In many (I think most) condo projects, the people in the office are quite happy to hold onto a key, and show the place to potential renters, without expecting a management fee (or, of course, any liability). Where this is not possible, owners of condos who have lived for a period in Thailand will often have friends who will do small favours (such as meeting potential tenants).

 

I doubt it is possible to open an interest bearing bank account in Thailand without, at some point, being present in the country. Hopefully, Immigration is not suddenly going to start asking to see work permits from people showing deposits in interest bearing accounts on the basis that they are engaged in an income earning activity.

[OZinPattaya]

4 minutes ago, BritTim said:

In many (I think most) condo projects, the people in the office are quite happy to hold onto a key, and show the place to potential renters, without expecting a management fee (or, of course, any liability). Where this is not possible, owners of condos who have lived for a period in Thailand will often have friends who will do small favours (such as meeting potential tenants).

 

I doubt it is possible to open an interest bearing bank account in Thailand without, at some point, being present in the country. Hopefully, Immigration is not suddenly going to start asking to see work permits from people showing deposits in interest bearing accounts on the basis that they are engaged in an income earning activity.

By God, I never thought of that. Any of us owning fixed deposit accounts bearing interest, should we not also be required to get work permits? Because apparently, to many posters, if you own an investment condo in Thailand and actually make money off of it, you should get that work permit regardless of whether the Thai government would ever deign to grant you one.  

[kingofthemountain]

3 minutes ago, OZinPattaya said:

Completely impossible? What prevents it? Owner does not need to be in Thailand. Owner very often is not in Thailand. Owner often lists condo on some website and leases personally. Then who actually shows the condo? Your everyday juristic person in lobby will be more than happy to do this for a little money from owner. Or whatever Thai person. Why would this be a challenge to an absentee owner? This is done dozens of times a day at my condo. 

the problem is if the condo generate money via a rent agrement, the source of the money (the condo)

is located in Thailand, and taxes need to be paid on this income to the Thai tax office, doesn't matter where the owner is actualy.

 

If the taxes have been paid by the owner, and he can prove it with a document, the asking of a work permit for him by the immigration office his irrelevant,

 

But of course the IO know that 90% of the individuals owners (Thais and foreigners) don't declare the rent and don't pay any taxes on it.

 

It's just a simple way for him to drive you in the corruption system or to drive you out of thailand.

They just don't care anyway because they think (Right or wrong is another debate) the flux of foreigners wanting to come and stay in Thailand is endless

[kingofthemountain]

4 minutes ago, OZinPattaya said:

By God, I never thought of that. Any of us owning fixed deposit accounts bearing interest, should we not also be required to get work permits? Because apparently, to many posters, if you own an investment condo in Thailand and actually make money off of it, you should get that work permit regardless of whether the Thai government would ever deign to grant you one.  

No because in your example there is no money from another party involved.

I mean it's your money in the bank and the interest go to you also.

Then it's not a work.

If you place money for someone else in a Thai bank and you give this person 

the interests back (Taking of course an interest for you also on the transaction)

then you work because there is another party earning money because of your help.

 

[BritTim]

3 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

No because in your example there is no money from another party involved.

I mean it's your money in the bank and the interest go to you also.

Then it's not a work.

If you place money for someone else in a Thai bank and you give this person 

the interests back (Taking of course an interest for you also on the transaction)

then you work because there is another party earning money because of your help.

I have never yet heard of any bank interest where you pay it to yourself. In every situation I am aware of, the bank must pay it out of their own income earning activities. I think it is ridiculous to consider that earning money from investments should be considered work, but the money from bank interest and money from rental income are equivalent. If one is work, the other logically is too.

[kingofthemountain]

9 minutes ago, BritTim said:

I have never yet heard of any bank interest where you pay it to yourself. In every situation I am aware of, the bank must pay it out of their own income earning activities. I think it is ridiculous to consider that earning money from investments should be considered work, but the money from bank interest and money from rental income are equivalent. If one is work, the other logically is too.

of course i mean in the case of the interests it's the Thai bank who works

and the Thai bank operate with a licence and pay taxes in Thailand.

A tax on the interest is also paid because the money is on the Thai ground.

 

Now if you rent your condo. the condo don't generate alone an income

someone has to be involved to do the paperwork and so on, so it's work

if the owner can deal all the process with no physical presence in Thailand

he is not working, and no needs a work permit, and it's exactly what i have writed

however the money is generated by a condo on the Thai ground

so this money need to be taxed by the thai taxes system.

 

The person working or not and the thing wich gererate a profit are 2 differents things

with 2 differents legislation, one is about the work permit and the other is about the taxes

 

Edited January 15, 2020 by kingofthemountain

[britishjohn]

6 hours ago, OZinPattaya said:

Yes, why is it every time I have a problem with an IO it is always some 30-50 year old, unattractive, sourpuss of a harpy? Where do they find these women? There must be a repository somewhere for aging Thai women who have been cheated on by western men, and immigration draws from this dubious pool almost exclusively for its officers. I thought I got luck today as a young affable looking male was working the visa conversion desk. Then my number was drawn and this young man escorted me straight into a back room where the scariest female Thai I've ever seen awaited me. 

I was thinking exactly the same thing today when I sat opposite the IO who rejected me on spurious grounds !

 

I had decided not to try to convert my OA into an O because of some unknown problem like this. Fat lot of good it did me, I ran into a different set of problems ! Your disillusionment with the place is very much shared.

 

 

 

 

[OZinPattaya]

9 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

of course i mean in the case of the interests it's the Thai bank who works

and the Thai bank operate with a licence and pay taxes in Thailand.

A tax on the interest is also paid because the money is on the Thai ground.

 

Now if you rent your condo. the condo don't generate alone an income

someone has to be involved to do the paperwork and so on, so it's work

if the owner can deal all the process with no physical presence in Thailand

he is not working, and no needs a work permit, and it's exactly what i have writed

however the money is generated by a condo on the Thai ground

so this money need to be taxed by the thai taxes system.

 

The person working or not and the thing wich gererate a profit are 2 differents things

with 2 differents legislation, one is about the work permit and the other is about the taxes

 

While I find all this debate on what is considered "work" in Thailand fascinating from an academic  perspective, I think it comes to: We not want you here. You go away. You go away now! Certainly, I seriously doubt the reason the Jomtien immigration officer that rejected my tm-87 was concerned about the hyper-subtleties of labor law. At any rate, I've decided to go down the bribery route of 20k and I sincerely hope these peasant tyrants choke on it. 

[britishjohn]

So if you need a work permit to manage an investment, you would also need one if you wanted to invest in shares on the Thai stock exchange. Utterly ridiculous !

[kingofthemountain]

13 minutes ago, britishjohn said:

I was thinking exactly the same thing today when I sat opposite the IO who rejected me on spurious grounds !

 

I had decided not to try to convert my OA into an O because of some unknown problem like this. Fat lot of good it did me, I ran into a different set of problems ! Your disillusionment with the place is very much shared.

 

 

 

 

Out of curiosity 

what is your option then?

And if you can give some idea about the difficulties you have had

here (Not want you to hi jack the topic or go off topic) or if you can

open a specific topic? Every experience is good to share, particularly 

on this conversion from an OA to an O where a lot of us are concerned

thank you in advance

[kingofthemountain]

19 minutes ago, OZinPattaya said:

At any rate, I've decided to go down the bribery route of 20k 

Then finally they got what they wanted

sad, really

I don't blame you

but every individual step in this direction

encourage them to persevere in this way 

and tighten the screw for everyone

Edited January 15, 2020 by kingofthemountain

[OZinPattaya]

8 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

Then finally they got what they wanted

sad, really

I know, I know. I am now part of the problem, yes? Maybe we all should be united, us expats and retirees, and start waving placards and banners and see where that gets us. The problem with corruption in Thailand has nothing to do with foreigners. The problem is that the Thai people will never demand real change. They will continue to prostrate themselves before an idol in finery and accept their lot like the sheep that they are. Westerners can't be expected to change this inveterate mentality. Thai people created this country. We westerners have to live within the parameters already established by these wonderful natives. 

Edited January 15, 2020 by OZinPattaya

[britishjohn]

17 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

Out of curiosity 

what is your option then?

And if you can give some idea about the difficulties you have had

here (Not want you to hi jack the topic or go off topic) or if you can

open a specific topic? Every experience is good to share, particularly 

on this conversion from an OA to an O where a lot of us are concerned

thank you in advance

yeah I did already start a topic about my experience in CW.

 

[kingofthemountain]

16 minutes ago, OZinPattaya said:

Maybe we all should be united, us expats and retirees, and start waving placards and banners and see where that gets us.

A lot have already started to ''vote with their feet'' going elsewhere 

 

17 minutes ago, OZinPattaya said:

The problem with corruption in Thailand has nothing to do with foreigners

You are right, unfortunately it's a ''cultural'' thing here

 

 

Again i don't blame you

at your place i don't know yet what option i would choose

it's not so easy.

[OZinPattaya]

I understand I already said I was going to pay the bribe. On second thought, I don't think I can do that. If I do, I'll never want to live here. I mean, it will taint every experience. 

 

Edited January 15, 2020 by OZinPattaya

[Lacessit]

My landlord is a Brit, would be here about two weeks in the whole year. I've never been asked for his work permit at CM Immigration. Just the lease and a copy of his passport ID. Perhaps the OP should consider moving here.

[gk10002000]

15 hours ago, OZinPattaya said:

 

Rules state that lease must be 3 months or longer. “At least 3 months”

eh?  So if I go the O visa for retirement extension route, at some point I must have a 3 month lease or hotel agreement?  And apparently, from a Thai place of business to guarantee acceptance?

[bkkcanuck8]

14 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Not the same in the case mentioned in this topic. Apparently the owner is jus renting out his condo that is certainly not the same a owning several properties as a business.

I have to disagree to a certain extent (though I would exempt individuals who are renting out their primary - i.e. ONLY residence in Thailand temporarily - but they would be required to file annual tax forms).   By owning property in Thailand and renting out that same property in Thailand - you are engaging in business/commerce in Thailand.  If you are not a resident or citizen (and most are not), then that would constitute work for the purposes of immigration.  You are no longer a passive investor.

 

Buying and renting stuff is really no different than buying and selling stuff... and I am sure if you did the latter the immigration would take an interest.

Edited January 15, 2020 by bkkcanuck8

[Caldera]

6 hours ago, OZinPattaya said:

While I find all this debate on what is considered "work" in Thailand fascinating from an academic  perspective, I think it comes to: We not want you here. You go away. You go away now!

That's not how I'm reading it in this case (and many similar cases posted here before). They clearly make up that nonsense to extract an extra payment for themselves, simple as that. If they really wanted you gone, an agent would hit the very same road block - but unsurprisingly, they don't.

 

The more the officials at a particular office get addicted to agent money, the more difficult it will be to get served by that office without using an agent, even with perfect paperwork. It might eventually spread like a cancer.

 

[bkkcanuck8]

4 minutes ago, Caldera said:

That's not how I'm reading it in this case (and many similar cases posted here before). They clearly make up that nonsense to extract an extra payment for themselves, simple as that. If they really wanted you gone, an agent would hit the very same road block - but unsurprisingly, they don't.

 

The more the officials at a particular office get addicted to agent money, the more difficult it will be to get served by that office without using an agent, even with perfect paperwork. It might eventually spread like a cancer.

 

I should have mentioned in my prior post that although immigration can rightfully require the renter of property (i.e. doing work) in Thailand to have a work permit... the requirement for the renter to provide a copy of that work permit... should not be required at all.  The person renting should not be required to do the immigration's job when it comes to the person renting the property.  If it is deemed work for the purposes of immigration, they should visit the renter directly and make it be known that he is not allowed to do work and that if he is renting property as a business (commerce in Thailand) that he is required to set up a property management company or hire a 3rd party to do that work in Thailand.   Most of us foreigners here have no permanent presence (i.e. we are not residents or citizens) so if we have property here for the purpose of investment and we are on a non-o non-oa tourist visas (all same class of 'tourist' long or short) -- we should ensure we have a property agent to do the work for us (in most countries non-residents would not actually be resident to actually manage the property.

[fulhamster]

19 hours ago, OZinPattaya said:

Thinking of going to TikToc agency today in Jomtien. I’m just worried that even an agency might fail here and I don’t want to risk 15-20k baht if I don’t know if it will work

Pay when the visa is in your passport, not before.

[Mavrix]

I lost a tenant a few years ago because of the same scenario that the OP has posted. My potential tenant was apparently applying for a Non-O l think.  Jomtien I/O wanted to see a copy of my work permit or tax papers ??? (I was in Oz at the time) 

 

Real Estate Agent claimed it was the first time he had heard about this so he had no idea what to do 

 

Before l had time to get in touch with a contact in a legal firm in Pattaya the guy found another condo with a Thai owner and l had lost a tenant.