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TM-87 rejected at Jomtien today


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20 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Not the first time I have read that Jomtien was saying the owner needed a work permit. Utter nonsense or an attempt to push you to use an agent.

One way to get around the problem is for the owner to contact an agent to handle the leasing of the property.

A foreigner is not allowed to put up a condo for rent in his name without a wp at Jomtien Immigration. They are quite tough about this, especially when converting a visa exempt or a 60 days TR Visa to a 90 days Non-immigrant O at desk 7. This is not new, it's been a rule for many years. That's why many foreigners in Pattaya/Jomtien uses a real estate agent when putting up a condo for rent. Actually, I don't believe this is 100% nonsense, as a foreigner and owner of a condo, you're not supposed to put it up for rent in your name if you're on a Non-immigrant O or O-A Visa. I might be wrong,though. I don't know where to look for the official rules/laws.

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20 hours ago, OZinPattaya said:

A woman in the condo juristic office handled the lease on behalf of the foreign Owner (which my feeling is she’s not supposed to do in her juristic capacity). I pay rent and utilities through her. But I’m sure she wouldn’t have a housebook for this property under her name. Have no idea how long it might take for owner to go through agent to make this happen, whether I could even make them understand the dilemma, or if they’d have any interest doing this. Might be easier for me to abandon current year lease and find new Thai-owned condo to rent. Not sure what consequences could be for me to abandon lease other than forfeiture of security deposit. 
 

It’s pretty obvious that Jomtien IO’s invent reasons to reject non-o conversions. This has got to be one of the silliest reasons to date I’ve ever heard of.

This is well-known at Jomtien Immigration. I guess you got one of the two ladies in the room which is Desk 7? The one closest to the window is famous for being tough and sometimes even rude. She will never change her mind about this,believe me. You can try to explain to her,and ask, "What can I do?", and she will just say, "Get the correct documents or change condo". As you said,the Juristic person at your condominium are not allowed to set up a contract for a foreign owner in his name. I guess it would work it it was in her name,but then she needs a copy of the house book from the owner + copies of her thai ID-card. If the owner can't provide you with the documents you need for immigration why would your deposit be forfeit? You haven't done anything wrong.

Edited by Max69xl
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8 hours ago, Lovethailandelite said:

You may want to reflect on the fact, that once you use an agent in Pattaya to get an extension, you will find it very difficult to break away. Particularly using an agent to get the O visa to start the extension. You will find that out should you ever decide to move province and attempt to use another immigration office to renew the extension at the end of the year

I can only relate my own experience using a Pattaya agent to convert my visa exempt 30 day entry into a Non-O based upon retirement and a 12 month extension (15 months total). Bangkok Bank savings account opened at same time. I moved provinces and obviously applied for my next extension at a different Immigration Office. The IO immediately knew I had used a Chonburi agent and asked ''how much did they charge? If you do it with us it will be cheaper".   

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One day a big cleaning is going to be done

also at the Jomtiem immigration office

and the sooner the better.

All this active corruption in front of people from worlwide

and in a small open area is a real shame

Dodgy agents, corrupt immigration officers and accomplices customers alltogether

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

One day a big cleaning is going to be done

also at the Jomtiem immigration office

and the sooner the better.

All this active corruption in front of people from worlwide

and in a small open area is a real shame

Dodgy agents, corrupt immigration officers and accomplices customers alltogether

 

 

 

What has your post got to do with the OP and his rejected conversion? 

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44 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

I can only relate my own experience using a Pattaya agent to convert my visa exempt 30 day entry into a Non-O based upon retirement and a 12 month extension (15 months total). Bangkok Bank savings account opened at same time. I moved provinces and obviously applied for my next extension at a different Immigration Office. The IO immediately knew I had used a Chonburi agent and asked ''how much did they charge? If you do it with us it will be cheaper".   

I know how much Jomtien immigration wanted for a 3+12 months stay = a 90 days Non-immigrant O + a 1 year extension in 2018. I've heard of costs from ~about 25k using agents. I don't know if it's correct. 

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7 minutes ago, Max69xl said:

I am an expat and have been staying here for years. 1900 baht/year works for me. You are just another whiner and you confuses (sometime) strange rules with corruption. 

I am sorry but it's you who are confused.

 

I am an expat and have been staying here for years too and yes

1900 bahts/year works for me also, but it's not the problem.

 

An immigration officer or an agent asking 20000 bahts in cash

like in the OP case, to ''forget'' a mandatory requirment is not

a ''strange rule'', it's clearly corruption.

 

But nevermind i am sure i can not convince you about some evidence here.

End of the conversation for me

(Conversation that you have started attacking my post 64 without any reason

afaik you are not the OP or a mod and you are not qualified to judge if a post

is related to the topic or not) 

 

Have a nice day

Edited by kingofthemountain
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17 hours ago, OZinPattaya said:

Yes, why is it every time I have a problem with an IO it is always some 30-50 year old, unattractive, sourpuss of a harpy? Where do they find these women? There must be a repository somewhere for aging Thai women who have been cheated on by western men, and immigration draws from this dubious pool almost exclusively for its officers. I thought I got luck today as a young affable looking male was working the visa conversion desk. Then my number was drawn and this young man escorted me straight into a back room where the scariest female Thai I've ever seen awaited me. 

Crikey that must be pretty scary indeed. Hope it all goes well for you in the end. It really is a monkey house down at the ol' office. The hot tottie on reception must be mia noi prospects for the pi-yais.

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12 hours ago, OZinPattaya said:

Okay, now you've worried me. Can you please elaborate? I don't understand why trying to renew a retirement extension in a different province should be dependent on how you procured the non-o to begin with. Because, obviously, if using a agent now means I will always have to use an agent in the future if I decide to move to a different province, which is very likely, makes me leaving Thailand for good a much easier choice. 

I would never use an agent unless i was really desperate. Basically you are entering into an illegal act to get your visa and then they have you by the balls. In the future they can, rightly, say your visa is invalid or demand any sum to overlook your illegality.

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17 hours ago, OZinPattaya said:

IO it is always some 30-50 year old, unattractive, sourpuss of a harpy

Why is it that so many farang who have problems with immigrations resort to bitchy comments about the physical appearance of the officer? 

 

Rather than lending support to your claims, it reduces you to a farang who does childish name-calling to recover from loss of face.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Henryford said:

I would never use an agent unless i was really desperate. Basically you are entering into an illegal act to get your visa and then they have you by the balls. In the future they can, rightly, say your visa is invalid or demand any sum to overlook your illegality.

The people I know using agents, they don't meet the requirements at immigration. So, unless their financial situation changes (and it doesn't) they need to do it over and over again. Now it might be popular using an agent if you're on a O-A visa and it's time for the 1 year extension without a health insurance. 

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10 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

Why is it that so many farang who have problems with immigrations resort to bitchy comments about the physical appearance of the officer? 

 

Rather than lending support to your claims, it reduces you to a farang who does childish name-calling to recover from loss of face.

 

 

Visit Jomtien Immigration desk 7, it's a small room only for conversions to Non-immigrant O Visas. Then you'll understand what he meant. 

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21 hours ago, elviajero said:

I agree it's nonsense. But where in the new rules does it exempt landlords (managing a property) from requiring a work permit?

 

The OP said his landlord is "from Hong Kong."

 

I dunno if that means a HK person living here in Thailand, or a HK person living in HK?

 

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31 minutes ago, Henryford said:

I would never use an agent unless i was really desperate. Basically you are entering into an illegal act to get your visa and then they have you by the balls. In the future they can, rightly, say your visa is invalid or demand any sum to overlook your illegality.

IMHO the following thread illustrates perfectly the perils of using agents:-

 

 

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20 hours ago, elviajero said:

It's a business whether you are letting 1 or 100 properties. The issue is in the management of the letting. If you use a third party to manage the property there is no issue. If you manage it yourself, as a foreigner, it's work.

I rent from a foreigner - the Juristic of the building handled all the paperwork TM30 etc as she acts as an agent for the owner - all above board and legal

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11 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The OP said his landlord is "from Hong Kong."

 

I dunno if that means a HK person living here in Thailand, or a HK person living in HK?

 

Many foreigners own condos in Thailand and for many reasons moves back home. They want to put the condo up for rent to make some money but they don't have a clue how to do it the correct way. The easiest way to do it is using a real estate agent and pay the monthly cost = 10% of the rent.  

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13 hours ago, OZinPattaya said:

Okay, now you've worried me. Can you please elaborate? I don't understand why trying to renew a retirement extension in a different province should be dependent on how you procured the non-o to begin with. Because, obviously, if using a agent now means I will always have to use an agent in the future if I decide to move to a different province, which is very likely, makes me leaving Thailand for good a much easier choice. 

if you use an agent this time - just make sure you adhere to the rules for the next 12 months then you can do the next one yourself

 

General rules

 

Keep 800k in your account for 3 months after your extension start date - and maintain a balance of 400k always - you will then be able to renew your next extension yourself for 1900baht

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15 minutes ago, smedly said:

I rent from a foreigner - the Juristic of the building handled all the paperwork TM30 etc as she acts as an agent for the owner - all above board and legal.

Officially you rent from the "agent", not the foreigner, and with the correct papers, that's ok.

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3 minutes ago, Max69xl said:

Officially you rent from the "agent", not the foreigner, and with the correct papers, that's ok.

correct - but the point is the foreigner owns the property it is in his name, stop confusing for the sake of confusing - it is what it is 

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9 minutes ago, smedly said:

if you use an agent this time - just make sure you adhere to the rules for the next 12 months then you can do the next one yourself

 

General rules

 

Keep 800k in your account for 3 months after your extension start date - and maintain a balance of 400k always - you will then be able to renew your next extension yourself for 1900baht

Not at least 400k always,7 months and then top it up to 800k again 2 months before next extension.

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Just now, smedly said:

correct - but the point is the foreigner owns the property it is in his name, stop confusing for the sake of confusing - it is what it is 

Yes,he owns it in his name, but he can't put it up for rent in his own name. That's why he and many others need to use an agent. This is the part that many don't understand. 

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1 hour ago, kingofthemountain said:

An immigration officer or an agent asking 20000 bahts in cash

like in the OP case, to ''forget'' a mandatory requirment is not

a ''strange rule'', it's clearly corruption.

 

 

I missed that bit, which post is it ?

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Just now, Max69xl said:

I know how much Jomtien immigration wanted for a 3+12 months stay = a 90 days Non-immigrant O + a 1 year extension in 2018. I've heard of costs from ~about 25k using agents. I don't know if it's correct. 

Mine was 2017. I used an agent personally recommended. I paid 20,000. Some agents did charge 25,000 at the time. I was advised further extensions were 13,000 and all agents charged the same for these. As you will well know, you can make life easier for yourself by doing things the 'Thai way'. My Thai Mrs asked for the IO's mobile 'phone number so that we only see this one officer now. Ring in advance, ask for 'VIP' service, no queuing and no TM7 required. Desk-cam photograph only at agreed time. Even so, I keep in touch with my agent because things may change, they can get you other things and they have useful contacts.   

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19 minutes ago, Max69xl said:

Not at least 400k always,7 months and then top it up to 800k again 2 months before next extension.

He obviously meant that the account balance could never fall below 400 k, even though it needed to be 800 k two months before and 3 months after the next extension.

 

 

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I hope you are aware that it's your responsibility to pay WITHOLDING TAX here if you rent an apartment from a non-tax resident!

 

Another issue no one here seems to know about... 

 

Quote

However, both the person renting the property and the owner of property who is renting it out the property and receiving the rental payment are jointly liable for the payment of this withholding tax.

The amount of withholding tax depends on whether the owner is a tax resident of Thailand and also whether the payer of the rental is a juristic person or an individual. If the owner is not a tax resident of Thailand the withholding tax rate is 15%. The legal status of the payer does not matter if the owner is not a tax resident of Thailand. If the owner is a tax resident of Thailand and the payer is a juristic person, the withholding tax rate is 5%. If the owner is a tax resident of Thailand and the payer is a natural person, there is no withholding tax applicable.

https://www.duensingkippen.com/thailandpropertylawblog/?p=28

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12 hours ago, OZinPattaya said:

While I find all this debate on what is considered "work" in Thailand fascinating from an academic  perspective, I think it comes to: We not want you here. You go away. You go away now! Certainly, I seriously doubt the reason the Jomtien immigration officer that rejected my tm-87 was concerned about the hyper-subtleties of labor law. At any rate, I've decided to go down the bribery route of 20k and I sincerely hope these peasant tyrants choke on it. 

Yep, welcome with the rest of us to understanding the real function of Thailand Immigration; the  process of extracting as much Baht as possible from Farnags. As you said you are now part of the problem...... If ever the Office of the National Anti-Corruption Commission needed to investigate the biggest scam racket in Thailand it would be IMHO Thai Immigration; they are even worse than Thai taxi driver scammers. 

 

At least you know outright when a Thai taxi driver it scamming you............with Thai Immigration the goal posts are continuously on the move and it's only a matter of time before you have to snuggle up to your local friendly visa agent to get anything done!

 

My advice is no where near as the expertise of OP's, cut your losses and always go directly to good a visa agent and remove all this pain, suffering and anxiety you are currently going through.

 

After working in and around Thailand for some 35 years and now living here full time for 3 years I have found one thing; "The Baht in large quantities can buy you anything you desire in Thailand"

 

You cannot use logic to get your argument or position across the line at Thai Immigration; it's not in their interest or the self-serving regionalized departmental rules they operate under.

 

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1 hour ago, Max69xl said:

 

2 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

Why is it that so many farang who have problems with immigrations resort to bitchy comments about the physical appearance of the officer? 

 

Rather than lending support to your claims, it reduces you to a farang who does childish name-calling to recover from loss of face.

 

 

Visit Jomtien Immigration desk 7, it's a small room only for conversions to Non-immigrant O Visas. Then you'll understand what he meant. 

 

First of all, the majority of childish remarks by "so many farang" have nothing to do with desk 7 at Jomtien.

 

Secondly, resorting to childish remarks  about personal appearance, mostly driven by petulance and not accuracy, make the poster sound silly rather than serious ...  something you've demonstrated repeatedly by apparently misunderstanding posts that you comment on.

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