calling the "oil gurus" out there

[piston broke]

 

The ADV150 has hit 1,000km's and its time for it's first oil change.

 

The question is:

 

Do i go for the normal Honda oil - or do i go for synthetic - and why ?

 

got chatting to 2 blokes in a bar a few nights back and got 2 completely different opinions and came away more confused that when i went in....

.

[VocalNeal]

You might find that Honda dealers have fully synthetic?

Edited January 20, 2020 by VocalNeal

[ThaiBrian]

Go with synthetic and stick with it. I'd try and get a really good deal on synthetic oil as I would change the oil again after burning season. 

 

Edit: "and why"

 

A lot of information on the web on why synthetic (additives) is more superior. Off the top of my head: It lubricates better (less friction = less wear), lowers operating temperature.

Edited January 20, 2020 by ThaiBrian

[DaRoadrunner]

Synthetic costs a lot more but is worth it. Normal oil molecular structure breaks down in time under heat and load. Synthetic does not and so protects better. Make sure you get the correct grade for your application as per owners manual. Do not forget to change the filter as well.

[Kwasaki]

29 minutes ago, piston broke said:

got chatting to 2 blokes in a bar a few nights back and got 2 completely different opinions and came away more confused

There's your problem.

[Farangwithaplan]

semi synthetic is fine for an agricultural engine like in the ADV 150. Synthetic will not hurt but in no way extend the life of your vehicle. If you have the money and are a spend thrift, go for it. If you are frugal, semi is more than adequate.

 

 

[papa al]

4 hours ago, DaRoadrunner said:

 Do not forget to change the filter as well.

The ADV150 has an oil filter ?? 

[VocalNeal]

6 hours ago, Farangwithaplan said:

semi synthetic is fine for an agricultural engine like in the ADV 150

. Synthetic will not hurt but in no way extend the life of your vehicle. If you have the money and are a spend thrift, go for it. If you are frugal, semi is more than adequate.

 

 

Semi is neither fish nor fowl. From Yorkshire? Just go with el cheapo dinosour oil.

 

6 hours ago, Farangwithaplan said:

an agricultural engine like in the ADV 150

Been keeping up with tractors lately? ????

Edited January 20, 2020 by VocalNeal

[jastheace]

4 hours ago, papa al said:

The ADV150 has an oil filter ?? 

has a removeable filter, clean any debris and refit. gauze or wire mesh if i remember right. soak in thinner. rinse repeat.

[Lacessit]

There are three types - mineral, semi-synthetic, and full synthetic. Mineral oil is inferior in terms of coefficient of friction. It's the additives put into mineral oil which lower the coefficient of friction. Once the additives break down with time and heat, goodnight nurse.

Full synthetics are esters of fatty acids and various alcohols. The fatty acids react with any exposed metal surface to form a soap, which has a very low coefficient of friction, as anyone who has slipped on a soapy bathtub will know.

Semi-synthetics are a bit of a compromise, cheaper but less effective than a full synthetic.

I don't know about motorbikes. The rule of thumb with cars is mineral, change oil every 5000 km, semi every 10,000 km, full synthetic 15 -20K

[JonnyF]

I wouldn't waste my money on synthetic oil on a little scooter like that. Just use a decent brand mineral oil that is designed for scooters and change it regularly.

 

I have an old Nouvo with over 30,000 tough kms on it (50% was with a passenger constantly going over Phuket mountains and the other 50% was in Bangkok traffic after I left Phuket). It's done multiple 500+ km days, sometimes over mountains with a passenger/luggage and now it is used on an Issan farm. I always used normal oil and the engine is as sweet as a nut. The rest of the bike is pretty rough though ????.

[taninthai]

Agree synthetic not needed we are are not talking about high Revving super bikes here ,,,,,,it’s just a little scooter.

i would just use Honda oil same as I use yamalube for my Yamaha scooters.

Edited January 21, 2020 by taninthai

[alx123]

I love oil threads

 

here's my "expert" opinion LOL

 

oil is oil is oil, as long as you don't let your engine run dry of oil, it'll be alright..

 

my 13 y.o 110cc Yamaha still runs like new (100,000+kms, odo stopped working now) , and i'm just using the cheapest mineral oil with it since day one. 

 

i noticed fully synth viscosity last longer though, that you can probably delay the oil change twice or even more than mineral oils..

 

whether you save money by doing this or not, im not sure, and don't care..

 

i started using fully synth on my PCX at 30,000 kms odo (now at 50,000kms +), but just because i wanted to increase the mileage before changing oil..(6k to 10k now) - i'm just lazy and i feel 100% synth oil stays okay even at around 10k.

 

Also using 100% synth on my 250, just because that's what the Kawa shop put in my bike..

 

In conclusion, I won't mind what oil is it im using, as long as it's within specs recommended by the owner's manual.

 

 

Edited January 21, 2020 by alx123
Because I'm awesome

[Farangwithaplan]

8 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

Been keeping up with tractors lately? ????

The fact that some agricultural engines may have newer technologies, the point of the matter - and the essence of the post, which you have either not comprehended or selectively chose to avoid for the sake of one up manship - is that the ADV engine is not highly strung and does not need a fully synthetic oil.

 

A semi synthetic has tangible benefits over a mineral oil and with the value between Honda's mineral and semi being much less than that of mineral to fully synthetic it makes sense both economically and mechanically.

Edited January 21, 2020 by Farangwithaplan

[CGW]

18 hours ago, piston broke said:

The ADV150 has hit 1,000km's and its time for it's first oil change.

Years back! they used to advice against putting full synthetic in an engine until it was fully broken in at ~5,000 km.

As stated full synthetic has better lubricating "properties" its all about whether its worth the expenditure!

[beddhist]

Most of the oil change advice given here is from 30-40 years ago. Any oil with an SAE rating that you can buy will be better than the best oils produced back then. My take on it now: I buy the cheapest oil with the correct or higher SAE rating and then double all oil change intervals.

 

My last bike was a Suzuki DR650, which I rode from Europe to NZ, from freezing to about 50C. I dropped it into a Thai river and water had to be drained from the crank case. No work had been done on the engine when I sold it with about 200,000 km and the original cam chain and clutch plates.

 

Do the math and see how much you can save on oil. How much longer would the bike have to last? Then consider that most vehicles are not scrapped because the engine is worn out.

 

My 2 cents. I am a bike mechanic.

Edited January 21, 2020 by beddhist

[transam]

If your ride takes 25 litres of oil then stick to what is "OK" in your handbook, but if it takes 2 litres then I would put in the best, which of course is synthetic oil..

 

My Suzuki takes 3 litres of synthetic oil, and is very happy....????

[VocalNeal]

48 minutes ago, Farangwithaplan said:

The fact that some agricultural engines may have newer technologies, the point of the matter - and the essence of the post, which you have either not comprehended or selectively chose to avoid for the sake of one up manship - is that the ADV engine is not highly strung and does not need a fully synthetic oil.

 

A semi synthetic has tangible benefits over a mineral oil and with the value between Honda's mineral and semi being much less than that of mineral to fully synthetic it makes sense both economically and mechanically.

I fully understand the post.  Maybe you can tell me what highly strung is and why that needs any oil different than the manufacturers rocommendation. 

 

Just off my head highly strung maybe a 1950's 1172 long stroke Ford sidevalve with lots of trick bits that pulled 7000 rpm if one was feeling brave ( used Castrol R40) or maybe a 1293 Mini that pulled 8000 rpm, in a road car.

Of course a large marine diesel running at 130 RPM  may also be considered highly strung when the nameplate says recommended not exceed 105 rpm. But a modern single cylinder bike engine at 9000? Even the venerable Honda Cub runs above 9000rpm. 

 

I don't need to do one upmanship????. 

 

Now, I don't have a degree in Tribology but you can look it up. 

 

For the difference in cost for a 150cc scooter between Honda dino oil and Honda fully synthetic is on the grand scale of things peanuts and worth it if the owner needs to feel good.  If Honda Thailand don't have fully synthetic then..... and it is certainly not worth 15 odd posts.

Sure one can leave fully synthetic in longer but in Thailand with labour costs being what they are the cost benefit of synthetic essensially become moot.

 

As you or someone said the PCX engine is not really "highly strung" and the rev limiter is set to around 9300 rpm. It has CVT so there is no low RPM full throttle high torque phase. 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2020 by VocalNeal

[papa al]

9 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Full synthetics are esters of fatty acids and various alcohols.

Right.  Alcohol + carboxylic acid <==> ester + water.

Esters are group 5 lubricants.

Very stable at high temps, but

they are hydroscopic [hyrophylic], = water attractive

 and break down into their constituent acid/alcohol

in the presence of HOH.

Needed for turbines, but require frequent changing.

Best in 2T applications too.

The best oil for most engines is group 4, PAO [polyesterolifins].

Great lube properties and super stable.

Amsoil for example.  Double the reco drain interval in motorcycles.

In America some 18-wheelers never change the oil,

just use bypass filtration w/ Amsoil.

Any correct viscosity is oil fine in scooter,

but Honda brand is prolly the poorest.

Even car oil would be fine.

["Dino"  No.

Petroleum is not derived from ancient life forms.

It forms in the earth's mantel.]

;-(

Edited January 21, 2020 by papa al

[Farangwithaplan]

2 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

Maybe you can tell me what highly strung is

With the ADV engine apparently producing less than 100hp per litre, it it mildly tuned at best and therefore will not have the tolerances required of a higher performance engine.

 

2 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

and why that needs any oil different than the manufacturers rocommendation. 

I never said it did but suggested because the cost factor from a mineral to a semi is negligible, it was the OP's prerogative to do so if they had the funds to splash in semi or full synth.

 

Some of the benefits of the semi over mineral are that it is a more stable under heat and breaks down less easily under shear. Its viscosity is also less prone to change from heat. And although the engine is cooled, there can still be wide range of operating temps in Thailand, especially in the north. So as I already stated previously semi synth is more than adequate. That means it is more adequate than the adequate mineral oil option, but with benefits.

 

But please check research from respected papers if you don't believe me. I wasted too many lights reading this subject when studying.

2 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

For the difference in cost for a 150cc scooter between Honda dino oil and Honda fully synthetic is on the grand scale of things peanuts and worth it if the owner needs to feel good.

Which is what I stated originally and was perplexed why you would have quoted me in attempt to counter what I had said.

 

2 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

Sure one can leave fully synthetic in longer but in Thailand with labour costs being what they are the cost benefit of synthetic essensially become moot.

And actually fully synthetic can break down it's long chain hydrocarbons quicker than semi synthetic and can do so especially at low temps. Or at least it did when I needed to study it. Additives may have helped that. But again there are plenty of research papers out there for you to get it from the horse's mouth.

 

[properperson]

so in conclusion then.....

 

Dont wast your money - put the cheapest oil in,  the Honda dealer sells ....

 

Go semi synthetic - great protection without the extra cost of fully synthetic.....

 

Your engine deserves the best - go fully synthetic.....

 

My head is spinning ....

 

[DaRoadrunner]

15 hours ago, jastheace said:

has a removeable filter, clean any debris and refit. gauze or wire mesh if i remember right. soak in thinner. rinse repeat.

Yikes! DO NOT use thinner! Use paraffin or flushing oil for cleaning engine parts.

Edited January 21, 2020 by DaRoadrunner

[ktm jeff]

6 hours ago, papa al said:

The best oil for most engines is group 4, PAO [polyesterolifins].

 

PAO,s are Polyalphaolefins. I always prefer to use fully or 100%  synthetic oils in all my bikes. It may be too good for some , but im happy knowing its got the best oil in there if the vehicle is used hard or in extreme conditions. For the cost of 1.4 liters of FS oil (500 Baht ) id use Shell advance ultra or similar.

[papa al]

16 minutes ago, ktm jeff said:

PAO,s are Polyalphaolefins. I always prefer to use fully or 100%  synthetic oils in all my bikes. It may be too good for some , but im happy knowing its got the best oil in there if the vehicle is used hard or in extreme conditions. For the cost of 1.4 liters of FS oil (500 Baht ) id use Shell advance ultra or similar.

 Thx for the correction.

That Shell Advanced Ultra is the penultimate stuff.

Not a PAO, but close.

 

[jackdd]

On 1/21/2020 at 6:00 AM, Lacessit said:

There are three types - mineral, semi-synthetic, and full synthetic.

Four types, you forgot 100% synthetic.

 

Instead of going for the cheapest option, you might go for semi-synthetic, this only costs a few baht more (no idea if it helps).

Be aware that many shops use 10w-30 oil (because it's a few baht cheaper), but this is only good up to 30 degrees celsius. Obviously in Thailand it's often hotter than 30 degrees which means this oil is actually not suitable for Thailand.

[Don Mega]

Whats wrong with using the Oil Honda recommends ?

 

If the scoot <deleted>es an engine and they do an oil analysis and find incorrect oil has been used I doubt they will honour a warranty claim.

[Don Mega]

7 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Four types, you forgot 100% synthetic.

 

Instead of going for the cheapest option, you might go for semi-synthetic, this only costs a few baht more (no idea if it helps).

Be aware that many shops use 10w-30 oil (because it's a few baht cheaper), but this is only good up to 30 degrees celsius. Obviously in Thailand it's often hotter than 30 degrees which means this oil is actually not suitable for Thailand.

Ive never heard of a ambient temp rating on motors oils, do you have any website links so I can read up on this ?

 

Edit: never mind google has provided so interesting charts... This surprises me given the operating temps of oil in a hot engine.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Don Mega

[jackdd]

3 minutes ago, Don Mega said:

Ive never heard of a ambient temp rating on motors oils, do you have any website links so I can read up on this ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil#Multi-grade

 

 

[transam]

Oil grade recommendations are mainly for start up. Engine running temps will remain about the same what ever country you're in once it is operating temp.

Engine start ups can be a major cause of engine wear over a period, that's why a thinner grade is recommended in cold climates so it can get round the engine quicker.

[Don Mega]

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil#Multi-grade

 

 

Thanks, that was one of the charts I'd seen.