Investors Visa?

[DaRoadrunner]

Anyone ever heard of an Investors Visa? Limited info suggests that this requires a minimum of 10,000,000 Baht brought into the country for purposes of property purchase, or even just to deposit in a Thai bank account.

[ubonjoe]

You can apply for a one year extension of stay based upon investing 10 million baht.

Requirements are here. https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_5

[ThomasThBKK]

i had friends using it, but they all switched to elite visas.

 

Sold of their investment condo/bonds and used parts of money for elite visa 20 years, main issue was that they are stuck to gov approved condos and other investments.

 

In a real country that is not a scam u can invest in government bonds or random real estate, or even regular funds, so there it makes sense (portugal, spain, greek etc  comes to mind).

 

here you are stuck with overpriced pre screened bs investments that are government owned. Thai gov bonds are horrible, u are better off sticking the money in an index fund (9 mio) and wasting 1 mio for the elite visa imo.

 

 

Just my personal opinion - the visa however WORKS according to everyone i know who used it, but every year they screen the <deleted> out of you, comparable to marriage visa... and every year they ask more and more questions.

The moment you sell you are no longer eligible, which is just another scam - in real countries you are allowed to sell after 3-5 years, AND KEEP YOUR VISA AND BE ABLE TO APPLY FOR CITIZENSHIP.

 

Portugal for example, 500k in real estate or funds/bonds - u can sell after 5 years, keep your goldenvisa, apply for citizenship.

Turkey is the same but only 250k usd.

 

[RichardColeman]

Sorry, but seems a bit of a loony visa to me where a Thai is the 51% stake holder of your money/investment

[ThomasThBKK]

7 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

Sorry, but seems a bit of a loony visa to me where a Thai is the 51% stake holder of your money/investment

Nothing to do with this.

 

This is about investing 10 mio THB in a gov approved condo project, bond etc.

[ubonjoe]

23 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

The moment you sell you are no longer eligible, which is just another scam

Not sure that is correct. If you sold the condo you could put the money in the bank or bonds and still get the extension.

[DaRoadrunner]

So to clarify. Exactly what type of investments are acceptable?

 

What is the point of the 10 MB investment if there is also a 3 MB one available? After reading the confusing document I did not find a reason.

[DaRoadrunner]

5 hours ago, RichardColeman said:

Sorry, but seems a bit of a loony visa to me where a Thai is the 51% stake holder of your money/investment

It states:- Must have evidence of investing in the form of a fixed deposit of no less than Baht 10 million
with a bank which is registered in Thailand and has Thai nationals holding more than 50 percent of
its shares.

 

So it is the bank which must be 50% + Thai owned, NOT your deposit.

[ubonjoe]

10 hours ago, DaRoadrunner said:

What is the point of the 10 MB investment if there is also a 3 MB one available? After reading the confusing document I did not find a reason.

The 3 million baht investment was rescinded in 2006. From the immigration website.

"(2) Must have entered the Kingdom before October 1, 2006 and must have been consecutively
permitted to stay in the Kingdom for an investment of no less than Baht 3 million;"

[justin case]

15 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

here you are stuck with overpriced pre screened bs investments that are government owned. Thai gov bonds are horrible, u are better off sticking the money in an index fund (9 mio) and wasting 1 mio for the elite visa imo.

how much percentage can you expect in Thailand from such an index fund ?

fed up with 1.5 percent gross in banks

 

thanks for reply

[ThomasThBKK]

1 hour ago, justin case said:

how much percentage can you expect in Thailand from such an index fund ?

fed up with 1.5 percent gross in banks

 

thanks for reply

I wouldn't do it in a thai broker, interactive brokers (US) has access to the every proper indexfund and can be used from thailand: https://www.investopedia.com/interactive-brokers-review-4587904

SAXO from Singapore is also used by many asian expats (me thinks), generally this article is useful: https://www.crevelingandcreveling.com/blog/smart-low-cost-investing-asias-non-us-expats

 

Fees for interactive brokers, internaxx, saxo etc usually are around  0.15% to 0.25% - so really virtually nothing.

 

Tech index funds like msci world info tech (https://www.msci.com/documents/10199/69aaf9fd-d91d-4505-a877-4b1ad70ee855) are up 47.55% in 2019...

 

 

ANNUAL PERFORMANCE (%)
Year MSCI World
Info Tech MSCI World MSCI ACWI
2019 47.55 27.67 26.60
2018 -2.60 -8.71 -9.41
2017 38.23 22.40 23.97
2016 11.45 7.51 7.86
2015 4.76 -0.87 -2.36
2014 16.06 4.94 4.16
2013 28.72 26.68 22.80
2012 13.30 15.83 16.13
2011 -2.49 -5.54 -7.35
2010 10.49 11.76 12.67
2009 52.36 29.99 34.63
2008 -43.87 -40.71 -42.19
2007 15.10 9.04 11.66
2006 9.31 20.07 20.95

 

 

quite impressive performance.... totally not investment advice tho, but everything is better than thai gov bonds imo.

 

PS: Would only invest in index funds, don't pick stocks... you aren't warren buffet.

 

[Silurian]

23 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

You can apply for a one year extension of stay based upon investing 10 million baht.

Requirements are here. https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_5

 

The part that I have an issue with is:

(2) Must have evidence of transferring funds into Thailand of no less than Baht 10 million.

 

What if you have been living in Thailand for many years and earned enough to have 10 million Baht. Seems like the money needs to come from abroad. Why can't one use the money they made in Thailand?

 

[ubonjoe]

15 minutes ago, Silurian said:

What if you have been living in Thailand for many years and earned enough to have 10 million Baht. Seems like the money needs to come from abroad. Why can't one use the money they made in Thailand?

That is what is required. They want the 10 million transferred into the country from abroad as an investment in the country.

Saving money earned here is not the same apparently. I guess you could transfer it out and back in to qualify.

[Silurian]

15 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That is what is required. They want the 10 million transferred into the country from abroad as an investment in the country.

Saving money earned here is not the same apparently. I guess you could transfer it out and back in to qualify.

 

Seems like a stupid rule to me.

 

If I transfer the money out, it will stay out and I will follow it.

 

[jacko45k]

15 hours ago, Silurian said:

 

Seems like a stupid rule to me.

 

If I transfer the money out, it will stay out and I will follow it.

 

Well not really, investment means putting money into (Thailand). How about an Elite Visa? 

[DaRoadrunner]

15 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Well not really, investment means putting money into (Thailand). How about an Elite Visa? 

Correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it, an Elite Visa costs a lot of money which you do not get back.

 

With an Investors Visa, the money you invest remains yours.

[ThomasThBKK]

13 hours ago, DaRoadrunner said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it, an Elite Visa costs a lot of money which you do not get back.

 

With an Investors Visa, the money you invest remains yours.

All these gov approved investment visas condos are highly overpriced.

 

Same as the condos that guarantee rental yields - they simply add those promises to the price, same as the ones that give you an elite visa - you just pay more for them.

 

So i would argue, you are way more likely to lose more than the 1mio quid of a 20 year visa holding these "investments".

 

i would bet my nuts on that if you buy an elite visa, use thailands nice territorial tax system to your advantage and stuff the remaining 9 mio THB in an interactive brokers account and buy a boring index fund you end up with WAY MORE MONEY than buying a govt approved condo here after 20 years. 

 

Just using a standard index like Nasdaq, going back 20 years where it had a 5.7% annualized ROR you would now have around 27 mio THB from your remaining 9 MIO THB.

And that relatively liquid, outside of thailand, easy to manage.

 

 

In real countries like Portugal you can buy *random* properties as long as their appraisal value is high enough, properties that are actually something you might want to really buy or are good investments. And you can sell them off after 5 years without losing your permant residency and route to citizenship.

 

After 20 years here you want to get rid of your gov approved condo (lol) and then you get kicked out because you are no longer good enough and your visa is invalid? Skrew that. unfair BS. you paid 20 years taxes on this stuff and get an asskick in return.

 

Can't compare the crappy thai investment visa to these, the only visa that makes sense here are elite/marriage and retirement for investor folks. 

 

 

There's only a perceived  non-loss of capital with the investment visa, in reality you lose a lot of money - most likely.

Same <deleted> as smart visas, braindead bs, you invest millions of usd into a thai startup and if it gets bankrupt you get kicked out, FAAAK THAT.

 

Learn to exploit Thailand to your advantage and stop getting exploited, 2 can play this game. 

 

PS: Return would be considerably higher if the calculator had data for 2019. 

[steve1512]

I recently enquired about this visa with immigration and was told that you have to own the condo for at least 3 years before applying. Any condo unit that lists you as the first owner on the title deed will do. The 3 years holding period put me off though.

[Hackney35]

On 1/28/2020 at 8:12 AM, Silurian said:

 

Seems like a stupid rule to me.

 

If I transfer the money out, it will stay out and I will follow it.

 

Many things in Thailand are stupid but I don’t see how this is?

How would you have made 10m baht from within Thailand without having a proper visa?

Or if you had a proper visa already why would you want to waste 10m investing in overpriced Govt sponsored condos to get a visa?!

I think similar rules would apply for investment visas in many countries, it’s all about inward investment from outside. 

[LivinLOS]

One of the obvious upsides is it puts you onto a 3 year wait to a citizenship process.. I also would guess, that the Thai love of money might make it a class that isnt looked at negatively (married and retired). 

 

Invest 10 mil, sit it in an index tracker or bonds, pay some tax each year, learn your thai.. Its at least a route. 

 

I am curious when your allowed to liquidate your investments and still retain your ongoing extensions ?? 3 years ?? 

 

This and the O-X are the 2 classes that there seems a distinct lack of info posted on. I personally like the O-X option but am still a few years out on being eligible. 

[ubonjoe]

6 hours ago, steve1512 said:

I recently enquired about this visa with immigration and was told that you have to own the condo for at least 3 years before applying. Any condo unit that lists you as the first owner on the title deed will do. The 3 years holding period put me off though.

The 3 years is only for a lease of a condo. If you buy one there is no requirement own it any amount of time.

"(3) Must have evidence of investing in the purchase or rental of a condominium unit for a period of
no less than 3 years issued by a relevant agency or government, at a purchase or rental price of no
less than Baht 10 million;"

[ThomasThBKK]

3 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

One of the obvious upsides is it puts you onto a 3 year wait to a citizenship process.. I also would guess, that the Thai love of money might make it a class that isnt looked at negatively (married and retired). 

 

I was told it's impossible to get a PR or citizenship with this visa.

 

no work permit - no chance for PR/CS?

 

You got any more info about this? That would actually make it interesting.

[Silurian]

6 hours ago, Hackney35 said:

How would you have made 10m baht from within Thailand without having a proper visa?

Or if you had a proper visa already why would you want to waste 10m investing in overpriced Govt sponsored condos to get a visa?!

 

One could come in under a Non-Imm B and Work Permit then work for a number of years to get to 10M. Lets say that person then wants to retire before the age of 50 but want to stay in Thailand. The investors visa would not be an option for them if they didn't have 10M to bring over from abroad. Like Ubonjoe stated, they could move the 10M out of the country and then back in (of course losing in the exchange rate).

[LivinLOS]

4 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

 

I was told it's impossible to get a PR or citizenship with this visa.

 

no work permit - no chance for PR/CS?

 

You got any more info about this? That would actually make it interesting.

Firstly I am not very confident of my info, with these rarer visas actual on the ground implementation is hard. 

The 'cant get it without a work permit' is a mild red herring.. You cant get it without a tax history, is the unwritten rule... People interpret that to mean work permit as that is how they think of tax history but your investment income will be taxed, hence you will do a tax return and you will have a tax history.. Its this lack of a tax history which it would seem effects married and retired folks. 

 

I would love to know more. I could be totally wrong and its only non B but I have repeatedly read other non imm O's, with a tax history, do qualify. 

[Sophon]

8 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

One of the obvious upsides is it puts you onto a 3 year wait to a citizenship process.. I also would guess, that the Thai love of money might make it a class that isnt looked at negatively (married and retired). 

 

Invest 10 mil, sit it in an index tracker or bonds, pay some tax each year, learn your thai.. Its at least a route. 

 

I am curious when your allowed to liquidate your investments and still retain your ongoing extensions ?? 3 years ?? 

 

This and the O-X are the 2 classes that there seems a distinct lack of info posted on. I personally like the O-X option but am still a few years out on being eligible. 

The investment visa doesn't "put you onto a 3 year wait to the citizenship process", you won't qualify without working here. And unless married to a Thai, first step would be permanent residency.

 

Investment in an index tracker won't qualify you for the investment visa. The funds have to be invested in a condo, deposited in a fixed deposit account in a Thai bank or Thai government bonds (or a combination of the three).

 

No matter how long you have had your investment, as soon as you withdraw your investment you will lose your existing extension. The investment will have to be kept for as long as you want to stay in Thailand under the investment category.

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, Sophon said:

Investment in an index tracker won't qualify you for the investment visa. The funds have to be invested in a condo, deposited in a fixed deposit account in a Thai bank or Thai government bonds (or a combination of the three).

I thought you could buy the SET ETFs with it.. 

[ThomasThBKK]

2 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Firstly I am not very confident of my info, with these rarer visas actual on the ground implementation is hard. 

The 'cant get it without a work permit' is a mild red herring.. You cant get it without a tax history, is the unwritten rule... People interpret that to mean work permit as that is how they think of tax history but your investment income will be taxed, hence you will do a tax return and you will have a tax history.. Its this lack of a tax history which it would seem effects married and retired folks. 

 

I would love to know more. I could be totally wrong and its only non B but I have repeatedly read other non imm O's, with a tax history, do qualify. 

http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0474.pdf

 

Quote

Section 10

(3) having regular occupation;

 

I guess that counts only thai occupation, or at least that's the thais interpretion - and that's also prolly why work permit is needed.

[steve1512]

10 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

The 3 years is only for a lease of a condo. If you buy one there is no requirement own it any amount of time.

"(3) Must have evidence of investing in the purchase or rental of a condominium unit for a period of
no less than 3 years issued by a relevant agency or government, at a purchase or rental price of no
less than Baht 10 million;"

That`s what I thought too, however both Immigration and a law firm in BKK told me I have to be a sole owner of the condo for at least 3 years. Anyone here actually got this visa recently and can report on this?

[LivinLOS]

13 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0474.pdf

 

 

I guess that counts only thai occupation, or at least that's the thais interpretion - and that's also prolly why work permit is needed.

Bummer.. Falls back to no route but O-X option or even considering paying myself a salary with umbrella company simply to be on the ladder.. 

[landosmiles]

For the discussion around whether work is required for PR, there was also some discussion around this a few months ago at: 

 - with similar conclusions.

 

18 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

I thought you could buy the SET ETFs with it.

I believe that is for PR via investment, not an investment visa.

 

16 hours ago, steve1512 said:

both Immigration and a law firm in BKK told me I have to be a sole owner of the condo for at least 3 years.

How very confusing.

 

16 hours ago, steve1512 said:

a purchase or rental price of no less than Baht 10 million

How does the 10 million even apply to a condo rental price? That you paid 10 million in rent over 3 years?? Or that the condo was bought by the owner for 10 million, and now you've been renting it for 3 years for less than 10 million? Well, I'm pursuing the investment visa via something other than a condo, so more of a rhetorical question for me.

 

On 1/30/2020 at 12:05 PM, ThomasThBKK said:

There's only a perceived  non-loss of capital with the investment visa, in reality you lose a lot of money - most likely.

@ThomasThBKK I am pursuing investment visa via something other than a condo, so I won't argue with you about the condo approach. However, for an investment visa by otherwise holding funds in Thailand... Common investing advice is to have a mix of stocks and safer investments, so I'm planning to keep the 10 million baht in a Thai 'safe' investment while leaving my other funds invested in my home country in stocks. I would imagine that the stock market wouldn't be considered comparable risk to a fixed deposit account or bonds. However, if the 10 million baht is the entirety of worldwide investments that someone has then I may agree with you.

 

I ran the numbers, and investment visa seemed more advantageous to me than elite visa - and would be even more so if your stay duration doesn't end up corresponding exactly to the elite visa length, and also more so if you're coming from a developed country whose rates are approaching zero or are even negative. The comparison I came up with: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WM8u3P7z0sc8KfneuDby_bTdetj_dWbHjCg4HZoJRaU/edit

I am interested to hear feedback.

 

Finally, merely to help link others to relevant discussions, there is another recent thread on investment visas in these forums at: