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Teaching and work permit


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Hello all,

 

I applied for a teaching job at an English language school in Bangkok. Last weekend, I observed 2 teachers. The manager/owner said the next step is to do a demo. Then after the demo, if everything goes well, they will give me a contract. 

 

My questions are:

1) If I must do a demo before being hired, is that considered "working." If so, then I would need a work permit, correct? 

 

2) What is the proper and legal way for me to proceed with any teaching job? 

a) insist the school secure a B visa for me before I work? Is it legal to work on a B-visa while your work permit is in the process?

 

b) ensure the school apply for the work permit?

 

The owner/principal said once hired, they will help process a work permit which she said will take 1-2 months (and I assume they expect me to work while I'm on a tourist visa). Does it really take that long? 

 

I said to her that without a work permit I can't work for the school. She said "no problem. Don't worry. Immigration or police never come to school and if they do, just tell them you're training." Isn't training also working? 

 

I don't feel good about that. It would be my luck an immigration officer or police enter the school and ask for my work permit. Then I would pay fine and be deported. Jail maybe? 

 

What would you do? Accept the job and take the risk or move on to the next school.

 

Please advise.

Thank you.

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Working without a work permit is illegal and what they told you sounds suspicious like they want you to work illegally because it's easier for them.

The school can get an urgent work permit for you, which can be issued within a day which is made for situations like yours, where the company wants to test somebody. So you should insist that they get one for you. In case they employ you, refuse to do any work until your regular work permit is ready.

If they insist that you break the law for them, better just walk away, they obviously don't care about you.

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Wt? I have never heard of 2 days. That’s unless it’s a pretty decent international school. They probably could prepare the documents within a few days and send you to the border, but it’s highly doubtful they would.

 

In reality you will need to start the job, the employer will probably tread water, observe your progress and eventually prepare the paperwork for you to visit an neighboring  country to get your 3 month non-b. Usually In the  1-2 month period you suggest.
 

You will apply for a WP at the Labour office, which is painless enough, just sitting there, signing a few pages and supplying a copy of every page of your passport and documents that no one cares about.
 

Then you can apply for your extension of stay at immigration for the remainder of your contract.

 

You need to go with your gut feeling, if you have a good feeling about the job then take it and work the time out, it’s nothing unusual to wait for a couple of weeks or month, but you wouldn’t be the first person to get messed about in this time either, it’s a bit of a limbo time where you have little control.
 

I wouldn’t worry about police or immigration, you got more chance of winning the Thai lottery.

 

(Sorry, I ’m a bit rusty, I haven’t worked for a school in a couple of years and I always used a WP on top of my own non-o instead of relying on a visa that’s tied to the school)
 

How is your current visa situation?  

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32 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Working without a work permit is illegal and what they told you sounds suspicious like they want you to work illegally because it's easier for them.

The school can get an urgent work permit for you, which can be issued within a day which is made for situations like yours, where the company wants to test somebody. So you should insist that they get one for you. In case they employ you, refuse to do any work until your regular work permit is ready.

If they insist that you break the law for them, better just walk away, they obviously don't care about you.

How can they get a WP on a tourist visa? I thought you could only apply on a non-o based on marriage or a non-b ? This the the OPs first position.
 

I agree that a WP is a pretty painless procedure, but only on the correct visa. 

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I don't see doing a "demo" as working, so I wouldn't worry about it. You're not being paid. It's an interview/audition, essentially. 

 

There are two separate components here you should worry about, which you touched on.

 

  1. Your visa. You'd need to transition to an eligible visa (most likely a B visa; people keep calling it a "non-B" which is confusing, but short for "non-immigrant B"). It's possible to do that in Thailand if you have (I believe) 14 days or more remaining on your permission of stay. Or you can exit the country and go to Penang or some such and get a B visa there, which will take a couple days (and cost more). 
  2. Your work permit. This one's more complicated. I'm wary of the way you describe the employer. Simply reassuring you that police "never come to school" is fine for him, but they're asking you to take a big risk. That said, other posters have pointed out that it's unlikely you'd run into problems. The bigger issue here is whether or not they're actually going to process your work permit in due course. In the teaching forum there's a thread that touches on this, and the consensus was that plenty of schools--including presitigious international schools--have people working whose work permits are not yet finalized. The Thai authorities seem to be OK as long as it's "in process." The notion of an "urgent" work permit is all French to me. Even if you have a great HR department it takes time for these things to be processed. 

Definitely resolve (or at least begin to resolve) the visa issue before you work. You wrote "insist that the school secure a B visa" for you, which is a bit misleading. You have to apply for it. Yes, you want their support (providing you all the documents you need, a contract, advising you on your own materials to make sure you're prepared, and even paying/reimbursing the visa fees). But it's not as simple as "go secure me a B visa." Even if they hold your hand through the entire process, it's going to involve effort (and travel, at least to immigration if not another country) on your part.

 

As for the work permit, it kind of comes down to trust and risk/reward. You could decide you trust the employer to process it properly and/or you're comfortable taking a short-term risk (if it's been months and there's still no permit, that's not OK). Or you could decide that you don't trust them and want them to do everything up front before you work. If you choose the latter, be prepared for the possibility that they decide it's not worth catering to your needs. 

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4 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

OP, first up good luck with your plans. I'm sure this forum can give you good advice. You might also wish to post in teaching English forum. Those guys have the practical experience re schools good bad etc.

Agree, and I add:

 

- I've heard of schools (including International schools who have some Thai teachers who have Thai Ed. degree and Thai teaching license) asking for the teacher to do a demo lesson for 2 hours, happened to my Thai nephew's Thai wife about 2 years back in Chiang Mai.

 

- Work permit, the application forms are quite simple, a school which has never prepared the application forms could do it within a couple of hours, experiencec staff could do it in 20 minutes.

 

The application needs:

 

- A few attachments provided by the school (school registration etc.), these are documents the school / business uses regularly in doing business, there's nothing on these doduments that needs to be secret etc. 

 

- A few documents provided by the applicant, basic stuff, passport, Ed. quals, simple details of experience etc. 

 

At the Din Daeng labour office process time is usyally 3 to 4 days, agents can get them processed in less time. 

 

Re: "... insist the school secure a B visa for me before I work?" The school can/should help you to get the documents prepared however the school cannot 'secure a B visa' for you. Schools don't apply for visas for their staff, immigration doesn't work that way. 

 

 

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11 hours ago, scottiddled said:

I don't see doing a "demo" as working, so I wouldn't worry about it. You're not being paid. It's an interview/audition, essentially. 

 

There are two separate components here you should worry about, which you touched on.

 

  1. Your visa. You'd need to transition to an eligible visa (most likely a B visa; people keep calling it a "non-B" which is confusing, but short for "non-immigrant B"). It's possible to do that in Thailand if you have (I believe) 14 days or more remaining on your permission of stay. Or you can exit the country and go to Penang or some such and get a B visa there, which will take a couple days (and cost more). 
  2. Your work permit. This one's more complicated. I'm wary of the way you describe the employer. Simply reassuring you that police "never come to school" is fine for him, but they're asking you to take a big risk. That said, other posters have pointed out that it's unlikely you'd run into problems. The bigger issue here is whether or not they're actually going to process your work permit in due course. In the teaching forum there's a thread that touches on this, and the consensus was that plenty of schools--including presitigious international schools--have people working whose work permits are not yet finalized. The Thai authorities seem to be OK as long as it's "in process." The notion of an "urgent" work permit is all French to me. Even if you have a great HR department it takes time for these things to be processed. 

Definitely resolve (or at least begin to resolve) the visa issue before you work. You wrote "insist that the school secure a B visa" for you, which is a bit misleading. You have to apply for it. Yes, you want their support (providing you all the documents you need, a contract, advising you on your own materials to make sure you're prepared, and even paying/reimbursing the visa fees). But it's not as simple as "go secure me a B visa." Even if they hold your hand through the entire process, it's going to involve effort (and travel, at least to immigration if not another country) on your part.

 

As for the work permit, it kind of comes down to trust and risk/reward. You could decide you trust the employer to process it properly and/or you're comfortable taking a short-term risk (if it's been months and there's still no permit, that's not OK). Or you could decide that you don't trust them and want them to do everything up front before you work. If you choose the latter, be prepared for the possibility that they decide it's not worth catering to your needs. 

 

Your interpretation of working and the RTP Immigration Division's might not be the same! 

 

Remember even volunteers here need a WP.

 

If he get's unlucky, someone doesn't like him or the school etc., it need one phone call. And calls are being encouraged at the moment.

 

The risk and undesirable consequences are his. 

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Been there, done that in what seems like another lifetime ago.  When I came to Thailand, not the first time but years later, I came in on a 90 day non-immigrant visa.  I already knew where I was going to teach.  I did not have to do a teaching demonstration.  On the first day I was there they collected all of my documents and made endless copies of the documents.  Two different sets, one for the Labour Office and the other for immigration.  Then a set for myself and also a set for the school.  Went to immigration and started the process there.  Afterwards went to the Labour office and started the process there.  Had to go to the immigration office first as the Labour department wanted to see that my application for a one year visa based on employment was under review.  I was then free to work in Thailand while everything was under review.  During this time my passport had been stamped "under review" by the RTP but I still had to go to immigration every 30 days to keep it renewed.  I also had receipts and paperwork from the Labour Department stating I was temporarily authorised to work while the process was being considered.  It took approximately three months to finally secure the one year visa and the Work Permit.  Renewals each year were a little better and didn't take quite as long.  I also had a representative of the school accompany me on all of my visits to immigration and the Labour Dept.  It does help having a native Thai speaker along.  

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OP

 

The work permit is a sizable stack of paper. An employer can complete it in perhaps two weeks. They will need a number of documents from you. My experience is only public schools so cannot advise there. Finally, it's not uncommon for employers to sit on your work a bit (probation). Language centers are notorious for not getting visas and permits for staff. I would never work at one myself.

 

Next, you'll need a proper visa, actually first. You can convert a tourist visa only if there's enough time on it to process the wp.

I assume this is BKK. Many provinces don't allow this, it's legal they just can't be bothered.

 

Highly recommend public schools over language centers.

 

It is possible you will need to show a degree even for the language center these days.

 

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11 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Your interpretation of working and the RTP Immigration Division's might not be the same! 

 

Remember even volunteers here need a WP.

 

If he get's unlucky, someone doesn't like him or the school etc., it need one phone call. And calls are being encouraged at the moment.

 

The risk and undesirable consequences are his. 

Sorry, didn't read this. You were saying a 25 minute demo is working and he might be caught out in the moment? 555. Never.

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22 hours ago, scorecard said:

demo lesson for 2 hours

Never heard of such a thing.

 

Personally, I don't demo anymore unless I were to shift to a big international school. I would expect to demo for 130k pm.

 

Demo can last 20-50 minutes usually. If they demo some guy with no experience they aren't looking for much.

 

Two hours for anything but the top 5 international schools, I wouldn't do it and if assume they were clueless. Demos are always a fiasco, the Thai are rarely prepared.

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On 2/10/2020 at 11:40 PM, FritsSikkink said:

The process can be done in days, not months. If you have a good CV, they would not need a demo at all, just a proper interview.

 I worked in management in Pattaya the two companies. I worked for Took care of my Visa and work permit in both cases. It took no more than about 10 days. To have the work permit in hand. Some people may tell you it's okay to work while it's being processed. This is incorrect and that came direct from the Department of Labor in chonburi. You must have the work permit in your possession before you can begin working. No idea why the school takes two to three months. That's ridiculous. I think they're dragging their feet.

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On 2/11/2020 at 2:51 AM, scottiddled said:

I don't see doing a "demo" as working, so I wouldn't worry about it. You're not being paid. It's an interview/audition, essentially. 

 

On 2/11/2020 at 2:10 PM, Baerboxer said:

 

Your interpretation of working and the RTP Immigration Division's might not be the same! 

 

Remember even volunteers here need a WP.

 

If he get's unlucky, someone doesn't like him or the school etc., it need one phone call. And calls are being encouraged at the moment.

 

The risk and undesirable consequences are his. 

Um. No. I think there's some diddling going on here, as I pointed out how this is clearly not an issue.

On 2/12/2020 at 2:10 AM, Number 6 said:

Sorry, didn't read this. You were saying a 25 minute demo is working and he might be caught out in the moment? 555. Never.

Well said.

 

When calculating the chances of something happening when several factors must align, you have to multiply the probability of each factor happening.

 

What's the chance of authorities considering an interview/audition/try-out, for which you are not paid and have not been hired, "work?" What's the chance of authorities showing up that day? What's the chance of authorities "catching out" the person giving a demo? What's the chance, after all that, of the authorities not doing due diligence and recognizing that they have no case, as any rational judge is going to see the (lack of) evidence and laugh at the charges, and even if they considered it would realize that they'd be throwing a huge monkey wrench into Thai hiring practices.

 

Every day, countless teachers interview for jobs in Thailand. They don't have work permits. Thai authorities would never interpret an applicant as needing a work permit. And anyone with any experience in teaching (or numerous other industries) can wrap their head around the fact that a demonstration is a reasonable part of the application process. 

 

So multiply all that together. Then ask yourself which is more likely: that the OP will run into trouble with the authorities for giving a demonstration, or that the OP will suffer a papercut filling out form TM978 and, through a series of misfortunes, die of sepsis? I think the latter.

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Last year an American teacher Rickey McDonald was placed in Immigration Detention Center.  Some of the fellow inmates did not like Amercans so they beat him, deprived him of water, and killed him over 4 days.

Last year an Olympic cycling medalist, Marc Ryan from New Zealand, was sent to IDC for working as a cycling instructor on a tourist visa.  He was in IDC for 4 days and is nervous about returning to Thailand.

Last year Chiang Mai teacher Patricia Palin was arrested in the classroom for teaching on a tourist visas for years.  She angered a business person who researched her background and reported her to Immigration.

Thais are encouraged to report foreigners working illegally.  There is a crackdown.

 

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to the OP

 

Take note of the people in this thread who have experience of Thai schools. They tell you that, in practice, work permits and visas take time to process and it is normal for teachers to start work before they have the correct paperwork. They are correct.

 

Of course, legally it is a grey area and you may be very unlucky and be caught out. Schools will tell you that immigration allow you to work if you can show that you have started the process.  If you dig your heels in and wont work until you have all the paperwork then I fear you will find it almost impossible to find employment.

 

I would make an educated guess that over 99% of foreign teachers in Thailand (all but at the top international schools) start their jobs without work permits.

 

 

 

 

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On 2/10/2020 at 11:40 PM, FritsSikkink said:

The process can be done in days, not months. If you have a good CV, they would not need a demo at all, just a proper interview.

Actually, a lot of schools are moving toward requiring applicants to demonstrate teaching a lesson.

 

Having a lot of stuff written in a CV, which my be verifiable or not, and knowing that some individuals are excellent at being able to "smooth talk" their way thru an interview, but having to actually teach a lesson from a lesson plan or topic and grade level at which the applicant will be expected to teach is one more piece of practical evidence of competence.

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On 2/10/2020 at 11:40 PM, FritsSikkink said:

The process can be done in days, not months. If you have a good CV, they would not need a demo at all, just a proper interview.

For teaching it can take longer than getting a work permit than for working for a company.

The first step is to get a non-b visa entry so that a teaching license or the waiver of it can be applied for. After that is done the a work permit can be applied for.

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On 2/14/2020 at 10:51 PM, chessman said:

to the OP

 

Take note of the people in this thread who have experience of Thai schools. They tell you that, in practice, work permits and visas take time to process and it is normal for teachers to start work before they have the correct paperwork. They are correct.

 

Of course, legally it is a grey area and you may be very unlucky and be caught out. Schools will tell you that immigration allow you to work if you can show that you have started the process.  If you dig your heels in and wont work until you have all the paperwork then I fear you will find it almost impossible to find employment.

 

I would make an educated guess that over 99% of foreign teachers in Thailand (all but at the top international schools) start their jobs without work permits.

This is well said. The poster above this (#16) is fearmongering, and borderline off-topic.

 

It's not that the extreme cases they cite are outliers (which they are), it's that they don't apply to you. A demonstration is not work. An applicant or candidate is not an employee. Folks arrested for working as cycling instructors or "teaching on a tourist visa for years" or what not are not you.

 

Of course, every situation is different. No one is saying the risk is zero. But the risk of dying while getting to work is not zero, either. As chessman and ubonjoe and others write, it's normal to work while your permit is in process. Just make sure you have the right visa and follow up with your employer that things are being processed (not by THEM, but that the Thai authorities have already been given the materials). It's OK to be forward about this stuff, as it's a big deal. But forward does not mean inflexible. 99% of teachers (I'll quibble with chessman and say that it includes a lot of teachers at top international schools) don't have the work permit "in hand" on the first day of work. It's the way things are done, it's accepted, and the consequences for Thailand if authorities started messing with teachers who are "in process" would be disastrous.  

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  • 1 year later...

When someone brings up problems about doing demo lessons and is it illegal because of work permit issues, and this is a red flag to any school and would certainly reduce the persons chance of getting employment. Any teacher of any subject I believe should be able to stand in front of a class and give a short lesson, it should be second nature. I have no problem to do so, and if the employment offer is 'sweet' I would want to prove that I am the man for the job! As to WP I would make sure that my pack of information is complete and up to date and once employed continue to push for the rest of the process to be hurried along.

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Seeing as the original post was well over a year ago, perhaps the OP could let us know what happened - did he walk away from the job, so as not to work illegally while the school sorted out his WP, or did he do what everyone else does and start teaching while the school sorted out the legalities, irrespective of how long it might take?

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On 2/10/2020 at 11:40 PM, FritsSikkink said:

The process can be done in days, not months. If you have a good CV, they would not need a demo at all, just a proper interview.

It's not the work permit which can be done in a morning. It is the letter of permission from the MOE you/school need this in order to apply for the Non B and work permit when Bangkok was busy it could take a month. I would think now a lot less time. As long as they te doing that you should be fine working. Once you get the certicate from MOE  it will just take a few days. 

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On 2/11/2020 at 12:14 AM, jackdd said:

Working without a work permit is illegal and what they told you sounds suspicious like they want you to work illegally because it's easier for them.

The school can get an urgent work permit for you, which can be issued within a day which is made for situations like yours, where the company wants to test somebody. So you should insist that they get one for you. In case they employ you, refuse to do any work until your regular work permit is ready.

If they insist that you break the law for them, better just walk away, they obviously don't care about you.

Your sadly mistaken he needs to have a letter of permission to work from the MOE before a visa or work permit is given this takes time in Bangkok. This is why the school said so long sometimes the lettee can take a month to get. Even top International school have teachers work before this. Sometimes  the letter is generated before the applicant arrives in the Kingdom. 

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4 minutes ago, arick said:

Your sadly mistaken he needs to have a letter of permission to work from the MOE before a visa or work permit is given this takes time in Bangkok. This is why the school said so long sometimes the lettee can take a month to get. Even top International school have teachers work before this. Sometimes  the letter is generated before the applicant arrives in the Kingdom. 

According to the department of employment the processing time for an urgent work permit is one day: https://www.doe.go.th/prd/assets/upload/files/alien_en/3ce03a7d9178d0ca0ff302a45e8b11e7.pdf

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On 2/14/2020 at 10:51 PM, chessman said:

I would make an educated guess that over 99% of foreign teachers in Thailand (all but at the top international schools) start their jobs without work permits.

Absolutely correct. Flying in on a Non-B with all your paperwork already sorted is the stuff of dreams. I suppose for a head teaching position at the top schools. The 1%.

I’ve worked for many schools, and seen the process several times. For the rest of us, the process from signing a contract to getting the completed Non-B and work permit, is 3-5 months. During that time you’re expected to work. Yes, this is illegal. They will tell you stuff like “don’t worry, we’ll just tell them it’s being processed”, it’s not true. You are in danger and just got to sweat it. I’ve had admins tell me they’ve lost many teachers, after they had saw raids on the news, and didn’t want to wait any longer.

Heh, I’ve never heard of this “emergency work permit” option that could be sorted in like 2 days. I’m guessing such a thing requires more hassle and money, which most schools aren’t willing to go through. I once had a friend hired at a mid-level private school, supposedly well regarded, who still didn’t use this option, and had to sweat through the several months.

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On 2/12/2020 at 2:08 AM, Number 6 said:

Highly recommend public schools over language centers.

I certainly don't unless you mean universities. I taught here for 25 years in many different institutions and universities and teaching Business English through language school were the best.

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5 hours ago, CrunchWrapSupreme said:

They will tell you stuff like “don’t worry, we’ll just tell them it’s being processed”, it’s not true.

Don't worry, in 25 years I never saw anyone getting done. 

How many teachers have you known to be put in jail?

The only ones that get hassled are ones that have <deleted> some influential person off.

Newbies worry too much; this situation is no worse than riding a m/bike without a helmet. 

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1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

I certainly don't unless you mean universities. I taught here for 25 years in many different institutions and universities and teaching Business English through language school were the best.

Absolutely.  I've taught here for 16 years and always in language institutes (young learners, corporate and exam preparation).  Apart from the first few years, the salary was fine, the hours easy and all the HR processes very efficient.  The thought of teaching in a Thai school is unappealing to say the least!

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