Should I switch from non-immigrant Retirement O to O-A visa?

[wealthychef]

Hello gentle readers, 

Sadly, this is yet another "income verification" flavored question from an American in Bangkok. 

 

BACKGROUND:

I currently hold a non-immigrant retirement O visa with a multiple re-entry permit, good for a year, until Feb 2021.  I recently met a gentleman who told me he has an O-A visa which he renews yearly in the USA. 

I have a lot of money, and a Thai bank account, but I only keep maybe 100k THB in Thailand at any time and with the recent change in the affidavit scheme, I am unable to verify my income for the visa while in Thailand.  I used a "helper" for this which, omitting the gory and sketchy details, cost me $950 this year to extend permission to stay with multiple re-entry permission.  This large expense is something I'd like to avoid in the future.  That is my main motivation for this posting. 

 

Here are the rules on the LA consulate website:  https://thaiconsulatela.org/en/visa/visa-type/non-immigration-category-o-a/

 

QUESTIONS:

My understanding is that it is much easier to verify income if I get the O-A visa instead, because I'll be in the USA and they will accept my bank account statements at the Thai consulate.  Is this accurate? 

Second, the O-A visa appears to require a medical certificate from a Thai doctor.  This seems strange since the application requires me to apply from outside of Thailand.  Am I understanding this correctly?  Here is the medical certificate:  https://thaiconsulatela.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Medical-Certificate-Form-For-Non-Immigrant-O-A-Long-Stay-Only.pdf

 

The big one:  would people here recommend I switch given the difficulty I have in verifying income and the expensive workaround?  Are there other strategies people are using?  Any other advice?  

 

Thank you in advance.  

 

 

[DrJack54]

Stick with no o and annual extensions.

Put 1mill in FD account in Thailand. Obtain extensions using money in Thai bank method. 

Forget about income method. 

You said you had plenty.

FORGET about O-A

Edited February 14, 2020 by DrJack54

[lopburi3]

9 minutes ago, wealthychef said:

Here are the rules on the LA consulate website:  https://thaiconsulatela.org/en/visa/visa-type/non-immigration-category-o-a/

You did read para 9 that health insurance is now a requirement and as far as I am aware no foreign insurance has been accepted to this date - and the Thai insurance would not be considered proper coverage by most people?

[Martyp]

I got my O-A visa at the LA Consulate in 2017. The new requirement you need to consider is that you will have to buy health insurance from a Thai company or get your outside insurance company to sign a Thai government affidavit (which may be difficult). 
 

Otherwise you can use money from your US bank account. You can keep this visa going for almost 2 years. Regarding expenses though, wouldn’t the cost of returning to the US to renew cost at least $1000?
 

In 2017 an O-A visa was the best choice. Now with the insurance requirement I would not recommend it however you have other financial issues to consider. In general though, if you follow their checklist you should have no problem. They were easy and professional to deal with. 
 

I agree with Jack. I keep a million baht in a Thai bank for my annual extensions. That has worked well for me. 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Martyp

[wealthychef]

1 hour ago, lopburi3 said:

You did read para 9 that health insurance is now a requirement and as far as I am aware no foreign insurance has been accepted to this date - and the Thai insurance would not be considered proper coverage by most people?

 

 

Oh wow, I thought that my international insurance would qualify as it covers me in Thailand.  Thanks for flagging that

[wealthychef]

1 hour ago, Martyp said:

I got my O-A visa at the LA Consulate in 2017. The new requirement you need to consider is that you will have to buy health insurance from a Thai company or get your outside insurance company to sign a Thai government affidavit (which may be difficult). 
 

Otherwise you can use money from your US bank account. You can keep this visa going for almost 2 years. Regarding expenses though, wouldn’t the cost of returning to the US to renew cost at least $1000?
 

In 2017 an O-A visa was the best choice. Now with the insurance requirement I would not recommend it however you have other financial issues to consider. In general though, if you follow their checklist you should have no problem. They were easy and professional to deal with. 
 

I agree with Jack. I keep a million baht in a Thai bank for my annual extensions. That has worked well for me. 

 

Keeping 800k THB ($25k USD) in a Thai bank is unattractive to me, as it represents dead money, costing investment and other opportunities.  I travel extensively, so visiting the US each year is already something I do and having dead money in Thailand thus is even less attractive.  

And thanks to you as well for flagging the insurance requirement as a difficulty.  That might be the thing that kills it.  

I'll have to think about whether it's worse to have 25k in an account or to pay $1k per year to a fixer.  

What are the seasoning requirements on the 800k THB?  Does the $25k have to stay there a certain amount of time?  Could I deposit it 3 months before applying and remove it soon after?  

Cheers

[wealthychef]

1 hour ago, DrJack54 said:

Stick with no o and annual extensions.

Put 1mill in FD account in Thailand. Obtain extensions using money in Thai bank method. 

Forget about income method. 

You said you had plenty.

FORGET about O-A

 

Question, what is a FD account?  Would a savings account work? 

[lopburi3]

2 minutes ago, wealthychef said:

What are the seasoning requirements on the 800k THB?  Does the $25k have to stay there a certain amount of time?  Could I deposit it 3 months before applying and remove it soon after?  

Cheers

2 months prior to one year extension of stay for retirement and at 800k level for next 3 months - then 400k until two months prior to next extension.  This is a new rule and no information yet on enforcement (was to prevent those people you talk about making a deposit and then taking out when extension granted - but funds are supposed to be available for use by design so defeats that and may not get tight enforcement).  

[wealthychef]

1 minute ago, lopburi3 said:

2 months prior to one year extension of stay for retirement and at 800k level for next 3 months - then 400k until two months prior to next extension.  This is a new rule and no information yet on enforcement (was to prevent those people you talk about making a deposit and then taking out when extension granted - but funds are supposed to be available for use by design so defeats that and may not get tight enforcement).  

 

It will be interesting to see where all this settles out over this year as more people get experienced with this. I think for now I'll wait on the Big Deposit and check back on these forums in December, 2 months before I renew.  ????  It is not hard to get some money here.  My circumstances are quite unusual due to my travel habits.  

Again, thanks for the tips.  I hope others find this useful too. 

[norbra]

My last extension using income method,showing Thai bank book and bank letter confirming required FTN deposits was all that Immigration required. My embassy also quit income verifications

Edited February 15, 2020 by norbra

[rwill]

18 hours ago, wealthychef said:

What are the seasoning requirements on the 800k THB?  Does the $25k have to stay there a certain amount of time?  Could I deposit it 3 months before applying and remove it soon after?  

If you are just talking about getting the visa in the US the money does not have to be in a Thai bank.  You can use the money in your US bank to qualify.

Also you don't need to get the Visa every year.  As long as the visa date has not expired you can leave Thailand then enter again and get another year entry permission.  So you can almost make it 2 years to have to reapply for the visa in the US again.

 

As far as medical insurance I would check out Pacific Cross plans.  They have several plans that work for the O-A visa.  You could look at getting one of the cheaper plans and max out the deductible to make it as cheap as possible if you plan on keep your existing insurance.

Edited February 15, 2020 by rwill

[lopburi3]

8 minutes ago, rwill said:

You could look at getting one of the cheaper plans and max out the deductible to make it as cheap as possible if you plan on keep your existing insurance.

Be aware having more than one insurance can cause an administrative nightmare getting payments in a timely manner.  Not to mention the reputation most Thai plans have.

[emptypockets]

7 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Be aware having more than one insurance can cause an administrative nightmare getting payments in a timely manner.  Not to mention the reputation most Thai plans have.

What reputation is that?

[Jaxxper]

I would suggest Non Imm’ O. As you say you have lots of cash available you just need to drop Thb 800 k in a Thai bank to qualify for the Retirement visa. That way you can use your own insurance and not have to worry about the Thai medical insurance requirement for O-A visas.

[lopburi3]

2 minutes ago, emptypockets said:

What reputation is that?

[Lacrimas]

Yeah the O-A is not a convenient option if you want to save money. The expensive mandatory insurance will cost you more than the 900 you pay now.

[emptypockets]

4 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

So no answer is your answer.

I suppose you don't keep money in Thai banks either given their reputation.

[Peter Denis]

19 hours ago, wealthychef said:

Oh wow, I thought that my international insurance would qualify as it covers me in Thailand.  Thanks for flagging that

When applying for the Non Imm OA Visa in USA your international insurance would be accepted PROVIDED that you get your insurer to fill-in and sign the Foreign Insurance Certificate, stating that your present policy meets the thai IO health-insurance requirements.

These requirements (400.000 THB in-patient coverage / 40.000 THB out-patient coverage) are ridiculously low and any international insurance will be way above that amount.  

But there are a few loops to tackle:

- The FiC needs to be filled-in completely, so only stating that your in-patient coverage is say 1.000.000 US $ is not sufficient, as also the out-patient coverage has to meet the - low - requirement.

- The FiC needs to be signed by two 'directors', but you need to be aware that this does not mean an executive, as that would make it sheer impossible to have your individual policy signed, but that it is a bad thai translation and that 2 managers having signed the Certificate would suffice (e.g. your insurer contact-person and a customer-service manager).  Obviously a stamp with their functions in the company under their signature is recommended.

- The FiC refers to thai legislation and so for many insurers that means an immediate refusal to sign such document as they are not familiar with that legislation. 

>> So in order to be successful with getting the FiC filled-in and signed, you would probably need a good relation with your insurance contact-person and some willingness on his part and the insurance-company to get the document signed.  I have seen several cases already of signed/filled-in FiCs, so it is indeed possible to get it done.

 

When you succeeded in getting the above properly filled-in and signed FiC you then can admit it together with the cover-page of your insurance policy to the thai Embassy where you apply for the Non Imm OA Visa, and that would be accepted to meet the mandatory health-insurance requirement.

The US thai Embassy would then add a note to the OA Visa, stating the expiry date of your foreign insurance policy (as filled-in on the FiC).  And when entering Thailand on that Non Imm OA Visa, thai border-immigration will look for the validity date of your Non Imm OA Visa as well as for the health-insurance note with the policy validity date, and they will stamp you in for the period allowed of whichever is shorter.

So you will get automatically stamped in for a period of 1 year when your Non Imm OA Visa validity date has not expired, and that allows you to squeeze almost 2 years of stay out of the Non Imm OA Visa when exiting and re-entering Thailand just before your OA Visa validity expires.  

However, the insurance policy validity date will determine whether you will actually get stamped in for the 2nd year, because border-immigration will only provide access for the insurance validity period.

So it is recommended that you also request your US foreign insurance company to fill in on the FiC a period of at least 2 years that your policy will be valid.  And when the US thai embassy takes over that 2-year period on its issuing note in your passport, you will then have no problems making full use of the 2-year period that the Non Imm OA visa can provide you.

 

In your case, going back to USA at least once a year, applying for the Non Imm OA Visa would be a very worthwhile option PROVIDED you are able to get your foreign insurance company to sign the FiC (even if they limit the policy validity as stated on the FiC to only 1-year).

Note: Applying for the THAI IO-approved insurance, on top of the foreign insurance, you already have is an absolute NO GO area. 

So when you are not able to get the Non Imm OA Visa, your best option would be to enter Thailand VisaExempt or on a Tourist Visa, and then apply for a 90-day Non Imm O - retirement Visa at the local IO of the place where you want to stay.  In the last month of that 90 days, you can then apply at that same IO for a 1-year extension of stay.  If you need more info on the Non Imm O - retirement Visa application, just PM me and I will send you a comprehensive Roadmap with all details/options to go that road.

 

[Jurg]

I have just made my Health insurance with a Thai Insurance, and have well over 800k Baht in  a Thai Bank for over 6 months, in order to renew my LONGSTAY OA Visa next year. 

 

Play by their Rules for one and use a good reputable Visa Agency to get all forms correctly prepared is definitely my advise. 

 

Anything else only creates stress and lots of running around for any applicant ????

[natway09]

Simple, retain what you have & just put 800K into a bank account in Thailand.

If you are not prepared to do that then who cares

[Peter Denis]

7 minutes ago, Jurg said:

I have just made my Health insurance with a Thai Insurance, and have well over 800k Baht in  a Thai Bank for over 6 months, in order to renew my LONGSTAY OA Visa next year.

...

Did you consider the following before subscribing to your thai IO-approved health-insurance?

 

[khunPer]

23 hours ago, wealthychef said:

The big one:  would people here recommend I switch given the difficulty I have in verifying income and the expensive workaround?  Are there other strategies people are using?  Any other advice?

The only advantage for the "non O-A", compared to "non O" with extensions, is that you can use a bank deposit in your home country.

 

A major disadvantage for "non O-A" is the compulsory health insurance.

 

I would not change my "non O" with annual extensions for a "non O-A".

 

I use the 800k baht deposit and get 1.5 percent annual interest before 15 percent withholding tax, i.e. about 1.2 percent if I don't claim any tax back, as I keep the money in a 12-month fixed account, and thereby don't have to worry about maturing period, and when to top-up from 400k baht to 800k bath.

 

My alternatives to something equally safe as a bank deposit, and still paying a reasonable interest, are limited; and even if I could find something giving me 3-4 percent (before tax) the difference would at best be around equivalent to 30,000 baht before tax; but in reality less. In my home country bank interest would be between zero and negative interest, and safe bonds would pay less than 2 percent. Whatever difference between a Thai bank deposit and similar safe foreign deposit is a small amount – if any – which is worth paying for a relaxed and easy extension of stay in the Kingdom.

 

When one has "a lot of money" I cannot see that this can be a problem.

 

The annual extension costs about 2,000 (1,900 baht fee might still be available) plus a multiple re-entry for 3,800 baht, i.e. around 6,000 baht a year including bank letter and statement. The paperwork is easy to do – just you are a bit organized and prepare your documents – so easy to avoid $950 helper's fee and save about 24,000 baht.

????

[BritManToo]

On 2/14/2020 at 2:10 PM, wealthychef said:

I currently hold a non-immigrant retirement O visa with a multiple re-entry permit

Not likely, that would only be good for a 90 days stay.

[Redoubt]

Please permit me to candidly share my recent tale of failure to acquire a 'Non O-A Long Stay Visa'; sought in the USA:

 

"Here is but one more true tale for the list:  An American sought to acquire a "Non O-A 'Long Stay' Visa" from the Thai Embassy in Washington, DC.  The professional services of a Thai company in Bangkok were commissioned to assist in the production of the application package.  This expat had made flight reservations during October 2019 to depart the USA on December 31st.  The completed application was mailed from Florida to the Embassy's Visa Section during early November.  On December 13th an Embassy staff member telephoned stating that the applicant failed to read the information on the Embassy's website, and did not include a new Foreign Insurance Certificate (FIC)(health insurance), and also did not qualify with monthly income.  Clearly the FIC was not included because the applicant knew nothing about the new requirement.  The applicant's medical / health insurance is perhaps one of the best available and would cover anything in Thailand.  However, although the applicant's three (3) months of bank statements show a monthly pension income well beyond and in excess of the amount the Thai government demanded, the applicant's end-of-month balance was below what the Thai official desired.  Following this unfortunate encounter, the applicant emailed the Embassy begging for the opportunity to remedy the problems.  Finally on December 30th a very kind official brought the then completed application package before the Embassy's Consular; and it was again denied only because the bank statement's end-of-month balance was "not enough".  So, even though the current Thai law pertaining to income requires a 'bank balance' "OR" a monthly qualifying income amount in excess, the Visa application was denied.  It apparently matters not if the applicant was purchasing 'gold', investing in a business or real estate, or acquiring valuable 'antiquities' at home, with his/her money from that very substantial pension.  Apparently what was actually demanded was that a 'minimum bank balance be in the bank' no matter what a "retiree" actually receives with their lifetime guaranteed pensions.  Footnote:  The required Passport for the next day's flight was sent by a very kind Embassy staff member, who graciously visited a local FedEx office on his lunch break to send it overnight via FedEx which the applicant happily paid $91.00 USD for; and the trip to the beautiful Kingdom did take place as scheduled."

 

 

[wealthychef]

59 minutes ago, khunPer said:

The only advantage for the "non O-A", compared to "non O" with extensions, is that you can use a bank deposit in your home country.

 

A major disadvantage for "non O-A" is the compulsory health insurance.

 

I would not change my "non O" with annual extensions for a "non O-A".

 

I use the 800k baht deposit and get 1.5 percent annual interest before 15 percent withholding tax, i.e. about 1.2 percent if I don't claim any tax back, as I keep the money in a 12-month fixed account, and thereby don't have to worry about maturing period, and when to top-up from 400k baht to 800k bath.

 

My alternatives to something equally safe as a bank deposit, and still paying a reasonable interest, are limited; and even if I could find something giving me 3-4 percent (before tax) the difference would at best be around equivalent to 30,000 baht before tax; but in reality less. In my home country bank interest would be between zero and negative interest, and safe bonds would pay less than 2 percent. Whatever difference between a Thai bank deposit and similar safe foreign deposit is a small amount – if any – which is worth paying for a relaxed and easy extension of stay in the Kingdom.

 

When one has "a lot of money" I cannot see that this can be a problem.

 

The annual extension costs about 2,000 (1,900 baht fee might still be available) plus a multiple re-entry for 3,800 baht, i.e. around 6,000 baht a year including bank letter and statement. The paperwork is easy to do – just you are a bit organized and prepare your documents – so easy to avoid $950 helper's fee and save about 24,000 baht.

????

It's a good option and thanks for sharing your reasoning.  It seems valid. 

 

Your system does not really save me any money all told in my case.  I have better investment options.  To make up for the $950 charge, I need to only make 950/25k = 4% more than a Thai bank account, which I definitely exceed routinely in my portfolio.  So I prefer to invest outside of Thailand and pay the fee in my case

This also has the benefit of someone else doing all the paperwork etc.  

But in 10 months, who knows, the landscape might change as well.  Thanks!  This helps reassure me of my strategy.  

 

[wealthychef]

18 minutes ago, Redoubt said:

Please permit me to candidly share my recent tale of failure to acquire a 'Non O-A Long Stay Visa'; sought in the USA:

 Very useful anecdote, and a strong caution against depending on Thai bureacracy (or any bureaucracy).  I "know how" to get my O extended.  OA is unnecessary risk with extra downsides.  Thanks

[mcl2504]

I'll admit I'm a newbie, only here in Thailand for 4 months or so, but happily legal on a 1-year "O-A" (so-called "retirement") visa. I looked at the website provided in the original post. My confusion is that there is no such thing as a "Retirement O" visa. There's an "O" visa that's good for a maximum 90-day stay to visit family etc., *or* there's an "O-A" visa that's good for a maximum 1-year stay for people over 50 who can meet income/savings requirements and now health insurance requirements. So frankly, I don't understand the question. It seems that the original poster has an "O-A" visa and has always used an income method to prove finances. If that's now difficult, the question is whether he should keep the 800,000B in Thailand instead. Well, if one can't do the one, then one can only do the other, right? What other choice is there?

 

Apologies in advance if I seem dense. But the visa categories seem 100 times simpler than this forum makes them out to be.

Edited February 15, 2020 by mcl2504
typo

[wealthychef]

2 hours ago, natway09 said:

Simple, retain what you have & just put 800K into a bank account in Thailand.

If you are not prepared to do that then who cares

 

3 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

When applying for the Non Imm OA Visa in USA your international insurance would be accepted PROVIDED .... 

- The FiC needs to be filled-in completely 

- The FiC needs to be signed by two 'directors', 

- The FiC refers to thai legislation and so for many insurers that means ... 

>> So in order to be successful with getting the FiC filled-in and signed, you would probably need a good relation with your insurance contact-person and ....

 

When you succeeded in getting the above properly filled-in and signed FiC you then can admit it together with the cover-page of your insurance policy ....

The US thai Embassy would then add a note to the OA Visa, stating ...

So you will get automatically stamped in for a period of 1 year ... allows you to squeeze almost 2 years of stay out... 

However, blah blah... 

So it is recommended.... 

 

In your case, going back to USA at least once a year, applying for the Non Imm OA Visa would be a very worthwhile option PROVIDED .... 

So when you are not able to get the Non Imm OA Visa, your best option would be ... 

 

OMG no way.  LOL  "O" visa is much easier!  Thanks for the detailed description!  I hope it helps others decide too. 

[mcl2504]

PS: I arrived in Thailand on a tourist visa and hired a Thai attorney to take care of all the immigration details. It has been painless and easy. I've not had to leave the country once to go from tourist to 1-year O-A. Easy. To be perfectly honest, I don't see why anyone who is not a Thai attorney would try to take on the Thai immigration bureaucracy on his or her own. My experience has been fantastic.

[wealthychef]

3 minutes ago, mcl2504 said:

I'll admit I'm a newbie, only here in Thailand for 4 months or so, but happily legal on a 1-year "O-A" (so-called "retirement") visa. I looked at the website provided in the original post. My confusion is that there is no such thing as a "Retirement O" visa.

 

 

 

I have a non-immigrant retirement "O" visa so you are just incorrect.  http://www.thaiembassy.org/hague/th/services/76474-Non-Immigrant-Visa-O-(others).html  See part 4