Should I switch from non-immigrant Retirement O to O-A visa?

[mcl2504]

4 minutes ago, wealthychef said:

 

I have a non-immigrant retirement "O" visa so you are just incorrect.  http://www.thaiembassy.org/hague/th/services/76474-Non-Immigrant-Visa-O-(others).html  See part 4

Well, I stand corrected. But this option is not listed in the Los Angeles website you posted. I wonder why you had to go to a Netherlands Thai consulate page to find a description of it? Is it on any Thailand immigration site? Any other North American site? Just curious. It does not seem like a normal, run-of-the-mill option, but rather something fairly obscure.

 

Having dared to dip my toe into the water and had it promptly shot off, I'll go back to blissfully letting my attorney handled the details of my situation and keep my opinions to myself.

[wealthychef]

11 minutes ago, mcl2504 said:

PS: I arrived in Thailand on a tourist visa and hired a Thai attorney to take care of all the immigration details. It has been painless and easy. I've not had to leave the country once to go from tourist to 1-year O-A. Easy. To be perfectly honest, I don't see why anyone who is not a Thai attorney would try to take on the Thai immigration bureaucracy on his or her own. My experience has been fantastic.

 

The reason people do it themselves is that it is much cheaper.  It's not that hard, but in Bangkok it involves a long wait at the immigration counter.  I've done it myself.  But now that US citizens cannot use the affidavit, it has become necessary for me to make certain adjustments.  When you are here longer in Thailand, maybe you will understand what that means.  ????  Glad you have a good method that works for you!  

[lopburi3]

9 minutes ago, mcl2504 said:

PS: I arrived in Thailand on a tourist visa and hired a Thai attorney to take care of all the immigration details. It has been painless and easy. I've not had to leave the country once to go from tourist to 1-year O-A. Easy. To be perfectly honest, I don't see why anyone who is not a Thai attorney would try to take on the Thai immigration bureaucracy on his or her own. My experience has been fantastic.

You do not have an O-A - you hired person to do what you could easily have done yourself and that was to convert tourist visa entry to a 90 day non immigrant O visa entry (cost 2,000 baht) and then extend that non immigrant O visa entry for one year (cost 1,900 baht).  You are now on an extension of stay for retirement.  You are not subject to the O-A requirement for medical insurance.  

 

17 minutes ago, mcl2504 said:

There's an "O" visa that's good for a maximum 90-day stay to visit family etc., *or* there's an "O-A" visa

That O visa can be issued for many reasons, including retirement (at Consulates that do not issue O-A visas) - you just extend stay inside Thailand as you did above without the need for the 2,000 baht conversion step.

[wealthychef]

  

 

4 minutes ago, mcl2504 said:

Well, I stand corrected. But this option is not listed in the Los Angeles website you posted. I wonder why you had to go to a Netherlands Thai consulate page to find a description of it? Is it on any Thailand immigration site? Any other North American site? Just curious. It does not seem like a normal, run-of-the-mill option, but rather something fairly obscure.

 

Having dared to dip my toe into the water and had it promptly shot off, I'll go back to blissfully letting my attorney handled the details of my situation and keep my opinions to myself.

 

You cannot get an "O" visa outside of Thailand.  That is why the LA consulate does not list it.  You MUST get an OA in LA.  You cannot get one inside of Thailand.  

Here's the thing about Thailand:  it's a confusing, bureaucratic country with many contradictions, bribery, and ridiculous official nonsense, the rules are different at every immigration office, and many things are done outside of the proper channels.  

If this concept is news to you or you are about to say "but...", then I agree you should just stick with your attorney.  ????  

[lopburi3]

2 minutes ago, wealthychef said:

You cannot get an "O" visa outside of Thailand.

You can and many do.  It is mostly the larger developed countries where they now only provide O-A for retirement.  

[Martyp]

24 minutes ago, wealthychef said:

  

 

 

You cannot get an "O" visa outside of Thailand.  That is why the LA consulate does not list it.  You MUST get an OA in LA.  You cannot get one inside of Thailand.  

Here's the thing about Thailand:  it's a confusing, bureaucratic country with many contradictions, bribery, and ridiculous official nonsense, the rules are different at every immigration office, and many things are done outside of the proper channels.  

If this concept is news to you or you are about to say "but...", then I agree you should just stick with your attorney.  ????  

I believe you can get a O visa in several of the neighboring countries and you can get an O visa inside Thailand. The process and financial requirements are different inside vs outside. People choose depending on their financial situation. Once you are inside Thailand with an O visa then you can apply for a 1 year extension of stay based on that O visa and no medical insurance is required. 
 

By the way, are you on an O visa or a 1 year extension of stay?

Edited February 15, 2020 by Martyp

[wealthychef]

 

18 minutes ago, Martyp said:

I believe you can get a O visa in several of the neighboring countries and you can get an O visa inside Thailand. The process and financial requirements are different inside vs outside. People choose depending on their financial situation. Once you are inside Thailand with an O visa then you can apply for a 1 year extension of stay based on that O visa and no medical insurance is required. 
 

By the way, are you on an O visa or a 1 year extension of stay?

 

extension of stay

[Max69xl]

On 2/14/2020 at 3:58 PM, wealthychef said:

 

Keeping 800k THB ($25k USD) in a Thai bank is unattractive to me, as it represents dead money, costing investment and other opportunities.  I travel extensively, so visiting the US each year is already something I do and having dead money in Thailand thus is even less attractive.  

And thanks to you as well for flagging the insurance requirement as a difficulty.  That might be the thing that kills it.  

I'll have to think about whether it's worse to have 25k in an account or to pay $1k per year to a fixer.  

What are the seasoning requirements on the 800k THB?  Does the $25k have to stay there a certain amount of time?  Could I deposit it 3 months before applying and remove it soon after?  

Cheers

You said you have a lot of money. Do you consider $25,000 a lot of money? You have to pay "a lot of money" per year for a thai health insurance which is in many cases useless. 800k in a Fixed Deposit Account will give you a higher interest twice a year compared to a savings account. 

Edited February 15, 2020 by Max69xl

[holy cow cm]

On 2/14/2020 at 3:58 PM, wealthychef said:

 

Keeping 800k THB ($25k USD) in a Thai bank is unattractive to me, as it represents dead money, costing investment and other opportunities.  I travel extensively, so visiting the US each year is already something I do and having dead money in Thailand thus is even less attractive.  

And thanks to you as well for flagging the insurance requirement as a difficulty.  That might be the thing that kills it.  

I'll have to think about whether it's worse to have 25k in an account or to pay $1k per year to a fixer.  

What are the seasoning requirements on the 800k THB?  Does the $25k have to stay there a certain amount of time?  Could I deposit it 3 months before applying and remove it soon after?  

Cheers

Yeah, but you said you have a lot of money so 800k in a Thai bank account is diddly squat. Or are you just saying that? or are you a penny pincher? Not being negative-, but someone who says they have a lto of money and flinching at 800k is very odd for what security if gives you here

[Saltire]

It seems that if you travel a lot, and have a lot of money then it may be the 20 year Elite Visa for 1m Baht may be an option for you. Or 500k for 5 years.

 

[Peter Denis]

2 hours ago, wealthychef said:

OMG no way.  LOL  "O" visa is much easier!  Thanks for the detailed description!  I hope it helps others decide too. 

In your case,

- flying at least once a year back to USA;

- having sufficient funds on your US bank-account to meet the OA Visa financial requirements;

- being already well-covered with an international health-insurance policy issued in your home-country;

it would be worth applying for the Non Imm OA Visa.

In my earlier post #18 I explained the hoops you would have to tackle to get the required Foreign Insurance Certificate filled-in and signed by your insurer. 

But when you succeed in doing that, you would be issued an OA Visa which would give you 1 or 2 years of IO worry free stay in Thailand.  And when the OA Visa's permission to stay almost expires you can re-apply in your home-country for a new one.

I have serious doubts that applying for a Non Imm O - retirement Visa in Thailand would be 'much easier', than requesting your insurer to fill-in the FiC-document.  So, it is - in your case - surely worth a try, and if it fails you can still go the Non Imm O - retirement Visa application road.

 

[wealthychef]

1 hour ago, Max69xl said:

You said you have a lot of money. Do you consider $25,000 a lot of money? You have to pay "a lot of money" per year for a thai health insurance which is in many cases useless. 800k in a Fixed Deposit Account will give you a higher interest twice a year compared to a savings account. 

 

I think at this point we are just hashing over definitions and minutiae.  I welcome new information, but I can handle my own finances, thanks.  ????

[wealthychef]

42 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

In your case,

- flying at least once a year back to USA;

- having sufficient funds on your US bank-account to meet the OA Visa financial requirements;

- being already well-covered with an international health-insurance policy issued in your home-country;

it would be worth applying for the Non Imm OA Visa.

In my earlier post #18 I explained the hoops you would have to tackle to get the required Foreign Insurance Certificate filled-in and signed by your insurer. 

But when you succeed in doing that, you would be issued an OA Visa which would give you 1 or 2 years of IO worry free stay in Thailand.  And when the OA Visa's permission to stay almost expires you can re-apply in your home-country for a new one.

I have serious doubts that applying for a Non Imm O - retirement Visa in Thailand would be 'much easier', than requesting your insurer to fill-in the FiC-document.  So, it is - in your case - surely worth a try, and if it fails you can still go the Non Imm O - retirement Visa application road.

 

 

Fair points.  I have one concern about that approach, which is, I don't think I can apply for the OA without letting my current permission to stay lapse, can I?  That is, because I have a re-entry permit, I don't need a visa.  Letting lapse is a bit of a hassle, because then I have to re-establish the whole thing again.  Am I wrong about this point?  

[Peter Denis]

1 minute ago, wealthychef said:

 

Fair points.  I have one concern about that approach, which is, I don't think I can apply for the OA without letting my current permission to stay lapse, can I?  That is, because I have a re-entry permit, I don't need a visa.  Letting lapse is a bit of a hassle, because then I have to re-establish the whole thing again.  Am I wrong about this point?  

You are correct.  You cannot apply for a new Visa when the permission to stay granted from your current one is still valid.  So even with your Visa validity date expired, the Re-Entry Permit will keep the permission to stay granted from that Visa 'alive'.

So you would have to apply for the Non Imm OA after your permission to stay from your present Non Imm O - retirement extension (kept alive by the Re-Entry Permit) has expired.  

Note: The US thai embassy/consultate where you apply for the OA Visa, might apply leniency when there are just a couple of days left from the permission to stay, or when it is clear from your flight-ticket that you will be flying to Thailand after your present permission to stay has expired.

[khunPer]

7 hours ago, wealthychef said:

It's a good option and thanks for sharing your reasoning.  It seems valid. 

 

Your system does not really save me any money all told in my case.  I have better investment options.  To make up for the $950 charge, I need to only make 950/25k = 4% more than a Thai bank account, which I definitely exceed routinely in my portfolio.  So I prefer to invest outside of Thailand and pay the fee in my case

This also has the benefit of someone else doing all the paperwork etc.  

But in 10 months, who knows, the landscape might change as well.  Thanks!  This helps reassure me of my strategy.  

Thanks for your reply. To me it sounds like your portfolio has a higher risk than bank deposit or like safe bonds, which I compared to. I also has a high return in my portfolios – even the SET inside Thailand – but it's also with a higher risk than bank deposit with a state guarantee...????

[khunPer]

7 hours ago, wealthychef said:

You cannot get an "O" visa outside of Thailand.

Yes you can, in your home country and in many neighboring countries. A non-O is issued for many purposes other than retirement, for example marriage. It's your extension of stay that holds a stamp saying "Retirement", as you your extension of stay is based on retirement.

 

By the way, your other arrangement without either proof of income, or a Thai bank deposit, is not really legal; one day it might not be possible.

 

Just stick to the rules, then it's simple and easy...????

[gk10002000]

On 2/14/2020 at 3:54 AM, wealthychef said:

 

 

Oh wow, I thought that my international insurance would qualify as it covers me in Thailand.  Thanks for flagging that

It wil cover you for insurance purposes, but it most likely will not be sufficient for you to get a OA visa while in the USA.  Now, as some have mentioned and as the Thai process itself states, foreign insurance "could be" used, but few if any have reported success doing it that way.  I myself have more than adequate insurance that will cover me, although cost me a bit more for out of network services.    In a few months I may try the certification process and see if I can push it through.  The only fear I have is that I may get the OA visa here in the States, but then when I arrive in Thailand, the officials at BKK airport will arbitrarily decide that they do not like nor approve things. 

[Peter Denis]

14 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

It wil cover you for insurance purposes, but it most likely will not be sufficient for you to get a OA visa while in the USA.  Now, as some have mentioned and as the Thai process itself states, foreign insurance "could be" used, but few if any have reported success doing it that way.  I myself have more than adequate insurance that will cover me, although cost me a bit more for out of network services.    In a few months I may try the certification process and see if I can push it through.  The only fear I have is that I may get the OA visa here in the States, but then when I arrive in Thailand, the officials at BKK airport will arbitrarily decide that they do not like nor approve things. 

Yes, and please do post your experience when applying for the Non Imm OA Visa in your home-country.

Especially re the Foreign Insurance Certificate which you will need to meet the HI-requirement (see my post #18 in this thread).

Re your concerns > I am quite confident that you will not get denied on entry or re-entry with the Non Imm OA Visa.  The fact that the foreign thai embassy issued you the Non Imm OA Visa is already proof that you met the requirements.  But border-immigration - as the PoliceOrder mandates - will of course look for the note which the issuing embassy has to add in your passport stating the validity date of your insurance policy.  So carrying a copy of the Foreign Insurance Certificate with you on entry, is recommended in case they ask for it.

 

[gk10002000]

1 hour ago, Peter Denis said:

Yes, and please do post your experience when applying for the Non Imm OA Visa in your home-country.

Especially re the Foreign Insurance Certificate which you will need to meet the HI-requirement (see my post #18 in this thread).

Re your concerns > I am quite confident that you will not get denied on entry or re-entry with the Non Imm OA Visa.  The fact that the foreign thai embassy issued you the Non Imm OA Visa is already proof that you met the requirements.  But border-immigration - as the PoliceOrder mandates - will of course look for the note which the issuing embassy has to add in your passport stating the validity date of your insurance policy.  So carrying a copy of the Foreign Insurance Certificate with you on entry, is recommended in case they ask for it.

 

So the embassy issues some sort of note about the adequacy of the insurance eh?  Anybody have a sample of that from the USA DC or LA embassy experience, either by doing the TIA Thai Insurance purchase or as discussed a foreign insurance?

[Vascoda]

On 2/14/2020 at 1:10 AM, wealthychef said:

 I used a "helper" for this which, omitting the gory and sketchy details, cost me $950 this year to extend permission to stay with multiple re-entry permission.

If you're using an agent to get your visa, you can opt for a cheaper service that will cost you around 300/400 USD. Surprisngly agent prices have dropped after they went with the monthly income in the bank for the four consulates and modification of keeping 400K through out the year for 800K method, contrary to what most posters had anticipated. Myy be more people have switched to agents and now agents can make a decent incomes and the IOs can send their children to good private schools and buy a car due to the increased in volumes. 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Vascoda

[RocketDog]

On 2/14/2020 at 3:54 PM, wealthychef said:

 

 

Oh wow, I thought that my international insurance would qualify as it covers me in Thailand.  Thanks for flagging that

The consensus on TVF seems to be that no insurance is accepted for O-A except Thai. Even folks who got such letters from their homeland insurers failed. 

My advice is too simply put some money in a Thai bank and keep the O visa. The insurance thing is ridiculous and fulsome. Just avoid it entirely. 

 

But for clarity, when I applied for my first O-A visa in America I just got a letter from my bank listing my accounts, their balances, and how long I had them. My doctor wrote a short letter saying I was healthy and free of communicable diseases. Likewise, my local police station gave me a form letter showing I had no convictions. All three documents were accepted without question and my passport arrived at my home 10 days later with the visa in it. This was done in summer 2017 with the Thai consulate in LA. 

 

Good luck and choose carefully. 

[RocketDog]

5 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

It wil cover you for insurance purposes, but it most likely will not be sufficient for you to get a OA visa while in the USA.  Now, as some have mentioned and as the Thai process itself states, foreign insurance "could be" used, but few if any have reported success doing it that way.  I myself have more than adequate insurance that will cover me, although cost me a bit more for out of network services.    In a few months I may try the certification process and see if I can push it through.  The only fear I have is that I may get the OA visa here in the States, but then when I arrive in Thailand, the officials at BKK airport will arbitrarily decide that they do not like nor approve things. 

"The only fear I have is that I may get the OA visa here in the States, but then when I arrive in Thailand, the officials at BKK airport will arbitrarily decide that they do not like nor approve things."

 

I think the OP or yourself as you say, might find himself standing in the airport with his (deleted) in his hand wondering where to fly to next. Trusting to the vagaries of a Thai immigration official at the airport is a fool's game. 

[Martyp]

29 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

"The only fear I have is that I may get the OA visa here in the States, but then when I arrive in Thailand, the officials at BKK airport will arbitrarily decide that they do not like nor approve things."

 

I think the OP or yourself as you say, might find himself standing in the airport with his (deleted) in his hand wondering where to fly to next. Trusting to the vagaries of a Thai immigration official at the airport is a fool's game. 

All the OP should need is the same insurance certificate they used to apply for the O-A visa. They will use the end date of your insurance policy to determine how long to stamp in your permission to stay. The worst case, and the reported experience of TVF members trying to enter without insurance, is that a US citizen would be stamped in for thirty days visa exempt giving them time to sort things out with Immigration.

 

[RocketDog]

13 minutes ago, Martyp said:

All the OP should need is the same insurance certificate they used to apply for the O-A visa. They will use the end date of your insurance policy to determine how long to stamp in your permission to stay. The worst case, and the reported experience of TVF members trying to enter without insurance, is that a US citizen would be stamped in for thirty days visa exempt giving them time to sort things out with Immigration.

 

Sure, but 'sorting out' might still fail. I guess if he has infinite cash, time, and patience he can try that route. 

His reasons for going from O to OA seem frivolous to me though. 

 

It seems he's trying to avoid keeping money in a Thai bank, which I have no fear of. With unlimited funds to park somewhere it seems prudent to have a foreign bank account in any event. I personally trust my American bank less than my Thai bank.

 

Just my opinion of course. 

[WalkingOrders]

OA means you need to get health insurance in accord with new Thai law. I have been here 4 yrs using income and renew at Cheng Wattana Bangkok. Easy. No issues. Renew again in 2 weeks.

[mcl2504]

On 2/15/2020 at 3:52 PM, lopburi3 said:

You do not have an O-A - you hired person to do what you could easily have done yourself and that was to convert tourist visa entry to a 90 day non immigrant O visa entry (cost 2,000 baht) and then extend that non immigrant O visa entry for one year (cost 1,900 baht).  You are now on an extension of stay for retirement.  You are not subject to the O-A requirement for medical insurance.  

 

That O visa can be issued for many reasons, including retirement (at Consulates that do not issue O-A visas) - you just extend stay inside Thailand as you did above without the need for the 2,000 baht conversion step.

Looking at my passport again, I believe you are exactly correct. Although I agree that the *doing* would have been easy, *knowing* what to do would have been almost impossible. Here I am, having gone through the process and still pretty oblivious to what my status is! The attorney was well worth the money to me. And I know what to do moving forward.

 

This raises an almost idle question . . . the O-A and O seem to be exactly the same thing. I've been following the thread and noting some disagreements. Can anyone explain how these two retirement, one-year visas differ, if at all? Is it mostly just a question of geography—where one applies? Enter Thailand on an O-A or extend one visa type to the O inside Thailand?

 

I'm grateful to people's patience in pointing out and documenting my misunderstandings.

[Andrew Dwyer]

1 hour ago, mcl2504 said:

Looking at my passport again, I believe you are exactly correct. Although I agree that the *doing* would have been easy, *knowing* what to do would have been almost impossible. Here I am, having gone through the process and still pretty oblivious to what my status is! The attorney was well worth the money to me. And I know what to do moving forward.

 

This raises an almost idle question . . . the O-A and O seem to be exactly the same thing. I've been following the thread and noting some disagreements. Can anyone explain how these two retirement, one-year visas differ, if at all? Is it mostly just a question of geography—where one applies? Enter Thailand on an O-A or extend one visa type to the O inside Thailand?

 

I'm grateful to people's patience in pointing out and documenting my misunderstandings.

An OA visa is only available in your home country ( or country of residence ).

It is Multi Entry and allows you to stay for 1 year. If you leave Thailand upon return you will be given an “ admitted until “ stamp for 1 year. If you leave and return shortly before your visa expires ( 1 year after issue date) you will be able to squeeze 2 years from your OA visa.

NOTE: 1st year is Multi Entry, 2nd year you are on permission to stay ( a re entry permit is needed ,from immigration or airport , to keep this permission alive ). 
At the end of the 2nd year you apply for extension of your permission to stay and continue yearly.

An OA requires age 50 , a police check, a medical check, financial requirements to be met ( can be kept in home country bank until extension then need to be in a Thai bank ) and lately the Mandatory Health Insurance.

 

The O Visa is available for many reasons ( marriage, retirement, over 50 year old etc)

It is available as a Single Entry 90 day visa or a 1 year Multi Entry Visa.
NOTE: the 1 year ME visa only allows you to stay for 90 days at a time.

The SE is available in Thailand and many other countries.

The ME is becoming more difficult to obtain, most people go to a neighbouring country for this.

Financial requirements to be met need to be in a Thai bank.
Yearly extension of permission to stay is applied for after visa ( SE or ME ) expires , as OA.

 

The OA was the visa of choice for many because is good for 2 years and money can be kept in home country now the Health Insurance ruling has meant many have, or will, change to an O visa and then apply for an extension for marriage or retirement etc.
 

Many people will say they are on a retirement visa, but they are generally on an OA visa, an O visa or an extension of their permission to stay of either .

Edited February 16, 2020 by Andrew Dwyer

[gk10002000]

9 hours ago, RocketDog said:

The consensus on TVF seems to be that no insurance is accepted for O-A except Thai. Even folks who got such letters from their homeland insurers failed. 

My advice is too simply put some money in a Thai bank and keep the O visa. The insurance thing is ridiculous and fulsome. Just avoid it entirely. 

 

But for clarity, when I applied for my first O-A visa in America I just got a letter from my bank listing my accounts, their balances, and how long I had them. My doctor wrote a short letter saying I was healthy and free of communicable diseases. Likewise, my local police station gave me a form letter showing I had no convictions. All three documents were accepted without question and my passport arrived at my home 10 days later with the visa in it. This was done in summer 2017 with the Thai consulate in LA. 

 

Good luck and choose carefully. 

yeah but 2017 is vastly different due to the current insurance requirements

[lopburi3]

10 hours ago, mcl2504 said:

the O-A and O seem to be exactly the same thing

As said above quite different and O visas only allow a 90 day stay without leaving and are issued for a number of reasons.  The O-A (extension letter "A" indicates a pre-approved one year stay on entry) and is only issued for retirement.  But they both can serve long stay for retirement, either with extensions of stay or obtaining new visas.  

[Martyp]

10 hours ago, mcl2504 said:

This raises an almost idle question . . . the O-A and O seem to be exactly the same thing. I've been following the thread and noting some disagreements. Can anyone explain how these two retirement, one-year visas differ, if at all? Is it mostly just a question of geography—where one applies? Enter Thailand on an O-A or extend one visa type to the O inside Thailand?

 

Most people (I think) who obtain either an O or an O-A visa eventually obtain a 1 year extension of stay. I believe the extension of stay for reason of retirement is the same regardless of the original visa. Same documents. Same financial requirements, same reporting requirements. This is a big reason why so many of us (I arrived in 2017 on an O-A) were surprised and disappointed that the insurance was retroactive. It is nonsensical to distinguish, with regard to the health insurance requirement, between those who, a long time ago, arrived on different visas.