BKK: If denied entry, can you fly to a nearby country instead of originating country?

[AlexCanada]

9 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

The holding rooms have bed. Think they charge 800baht/day. Not sure re amount.

but how would someone pay 800 baht per night if they supposedly have no access to an ATM?  

 

Another question I understand Thailand Immigration requires you to 20,000 Thai baht to enter Thailand.  I have always abided by this rule since I heard about it.  Would a person be denied entry for the sole reason they are not carrying 20,000 Thai baht when they enter Thailand?

[treetops]

9 minutes ago, AlexCanada said:

Which other countries fly directly in to UTP?  Since I go to Pattaya that would be useful information for me.  Would save me 1000 cab fare from BKK and 1700 from DMK.

Australia, Singapore, India, China, Malaysia, Cambodia, Vietnam, Nepal, Korea, Qatar, Philippines etc, etc.  Look at the airports Wikipedia page for a full listing along with the airlines serving them.

 

It wouldn't save you the full taxi cost as Utapoa to Pattaya is typically 700 - 800 baht fare.

[jacko45k]

5 hours ago, AlexCanada said:

but how would someone pay 800 baht per night if they supposedly have no access to an ATM?  

 

Another question I understand Thailand Immigration requires you to 20,000 Thai baht to enter Thailand.  I have always abided by this rule since I heard about it.  Would a person be denied entry for the sole reason they are not carrying 20,000 Thai baht when they enter Thailand?

For a Visa exempt entry, it is 10,000 baht. 20,000 for those with Visas or a family. The reason has been utilized even for those who had the money!

[pookondee]

IMO..Ridiculous paranoia,

this idea of flying all about the place to avoid something that will probably NOT happen, IF you consider the numbers.

 

-(if) 35million tourists a year, 

-some 98,000 per day.

- a handfull,

(granted we dont know figures on how many deported are not TV members)

a tiny % out of 35 million are reporting these denials.

-AND we dont know if they are trolling BS or other factors involved they obviously dont tell us.

 

(past history, convictions/arrests, overstay, country and race that Thais consider a certain risk, suspect of working illegally)..of course the posters dont tell us this.

 

- the amount of posters reporting if coming in/out many many times per year with no problem whatsoever, GREATLY outnumbers the few reports of denials.

 

I know several people myself staying 6 months or so in Thailand EVERY year, never a problem.

 

Just take the damน flight already!!

 

Being a smartสss and flying all about the place still has risks of being denied down the track.

And what a colossal waste of time and money it would be then. 

 

If denied and sent home, you obviously weren't meant to be there

but it is probably akin to being struck by lightning on a fine day 

 

 

[ChristianPFC]

1 hour ago, pookondee said:

Just take the damน flight already!!

 

Being a smartสss and flying all about the place

Interesting. I saw the reverse, Thais writing in Thai and replacing Thai letters by similar looking Latin letters.

 

I know several frequent visitors (TV, VE) who had problems at immigration, and I was once asked for a flight out (and didn't have one as I came on a METV, but didn't argue about that with IO officer and booked a flight instead).

 

The mere possibility of being denied entry, and reports by people who have been denied entry, greatly concerns me and is a reason why I will spend much less time in Thailand (target is to get under 6 months) than I would like to and did in the past (from 10 months in 2014 already down to 8 months in 2019).

[pookondee]

5 hours ago, ChristianPFC said:

Interesting. I saw the reverse, Thais writing in Thai and replacing Thai letters by similar looking Latin letters.

 

I know several frequent visitors (TV, VE) who had problems at immigration, and I was once asked for a flight out (and didn't have one as I came on a METV, but didn't argue about that with IO officer and booked a flight instead).

 

The mere possibility of being denied entry, and reports by people who have been denied entry, greatly concerns me and is a reason why I will spend much less time in Thailand (target is to get under 6 months) than I would like to and did in the past (from 10 months in 2014 already down to 8 months in 2019).

Its a good point.

You see folks on here hanging around in Thailand until they are absolutely bitter and negative about everything Thailand.

And a mindset like that can follow you around everywhere in the end.

 

Much better scenario is, like you said, spend time back home, (or various other places) and cut down on time in LOS if its giving you grief.

 

Its a ++ idea really.

Cutting ties to your homeland is a bad idea these days, since Thailand feels the need to change immigration laws willy-nilly.

The next change might be the one that prices you out of the market.

 

The guys with family ties (stuck) i feel sorry for.

Essentially they are kow-towing to the whims of a few very ignorant, nationalistic, rich xxxxs, who

really dont give a fig about anyone but themselves. 

Certainly not their own poor country-men, whom farangs are supporting.

 

As for getting denied, I still cannot believe you will be denied if you only go there 6-9 months per year,

get a visa from your own country..

 

Provided you have no shady history and your country isnt one that gets "scrutinised" more than others.

 

If they send you back, just wipe 'em.

 

Who wants to stay in a country that does that to you?..

when you are doing nothing wrong, just spending and bringing in foriegn $.

 

They will learn eventually.

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by pookondee

[stouricks]

On 2/17/2020 at 12:57 PM, Russell17au said:

No international airline will take an international booking without a copy of the information page of the passport of the person placing the booking.

Incorrect. I just booked with Emirates Bkk to Dxb to Mad and back for myself and partner. No passports shown. 

[KCM]

When I was denied entry arriving to BKK on a flight from Japan I went directly to Cambodia. After immigration processed my denial I was escorted by Thai Air staff to one of their offices where I was told by the staff I needed to either go back to Japan or go to the U.S. since it's my home country. After a couple of minutes discussion it was agreed that I could choose any destination I want. They agreed that Thai Immigration doesn't care where you go.

 

I went online and booked the next flight on Thai Air to Phnom Penh. Once the Thai Air staff saw my reservation in their system they told me what time to meet them at the gate to get my passport. I then waited in the lounge until it was time for my flight.

 

In my case, the airline at first did say I would have to go back to where I departed or go to my home country, but with just a little resistance they quickly agreed it didn't matter where I go.

[KCM]

On 2/17/2020 at 4:12 PM, Russell17au said:

Where is your passport? Remember that you are a "Denied Entry". The FACTS are that when you are denied entry your passport is held by immigration until you are escorted to the departing aircraft and it is handed to the flight crew.

When I was denied entry at BKK on a Thai Air flight from Japan my passport was held by Thai Air once Immigration processed my denial. Thai Air staff kept my passport until it was time to board my next flight, which was not back to Japan.

 

 

On 2/17/2020 at 4:12 PM, Russell17au said:

and you are being held in a holding cell until it is time to be escorted to the aircraft to return to your departure point which is the last stamp in your passport before your denied entry stamp and that is the only place you are allowed to go to.

I never saw a holding cell and didn't return to the country of the last stamp in my passport. I was briefly in an Immigration office where my denial was processed. As soon as the denial was processed, I was escorted to a Thai Air office by Thai Air staff. From the moment I left the Immigration office I didn't have contact again with anyone from Thai Immigration.

 

While at the Thai Air office I booked a ticket online to Phnom Penh. I was then free to go anywhere within the airport until it was time for my flight. When it was time for my flight to Phnom Penh I met the Thai Air staff at the gate and was given my passport before boarding.

[lovethai123]

On 2/18/2020 at 2:58 AM, Hal65 said:

Google shows you if you do it in reverse (Utapao as the origin) and leave the destination blank: https://www.google.com/travel/explore?tfs=CBkQAxobEgoyMDIwLTAzLTA0ag0IAhIJL20vMDM0X3FtGhsSCjIwMjAtMDMtMDhyDQgCEgkvbS8wMzRfcW1AAUgBUgNVU0RwAQ&curr=USD&gl=th&hl=en&authuser=0&origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com

 

Click on each city in the map and look for nonstop flights. I think KL is the only international one.

Perhaps an easier way to get entire list is going on this link and check airlines and destination

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-Tapao_International_Airport

 

Some flights may be seasonal but you can check time and fare on any flight booking app.

 

And plan your trip accordingly. Also I have heard about bus from utapao to Pattaya. But I don't know how to book it. You may look online for bus service. Taxi from utapao to Pattaya costs 800 baht or even more.

 

[007 RED]

1 hour ago, lovethai123 said:

Perhaps an easier way to get entire list is going on this link and check airlines and destination

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-Tapao_International_Airport

 

Some flights may be seasonal but you can check time and fare on any flight booking app.

As you pointed out some, if not all, of those listed on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-Tapao_International_Airport may well be seasonal international flights. 

 

I suspect that the list may also be out of date as more airlines may have decided to use this facility since that list was published.

 

I just had a look at Flightradar24 info for U-Tapo departures for tomorrow and the following international flights are shown:

 

Airline              City

Royal Flight      Yekaterinburg (Russia)

Azvr Air            Tyumen (Russia)

Norwind           Krasnoyarsk (Russia)

TUI Fly             Birmingham (UK)

Royal Flight      Novosibirsk (Russia)

Azur Air            Novosibirsk (Russia)

Norwind           Khabarovsk (Russia)

TUI Fly             London Gatwick (UK)

Azur Air            Moscow (Russia)

Delta                Tokyo (Japan)

 

Interesting to note that there are no flights from China.

[007 RED]

5 hours ago, KCM said:

When I was denied entry arriving to BKK on a flight from Japan I went directly to Cambodia. After immigration processed my denial I was escorted by Thai Air staff to one of their offices where I was told by the staff I needed to either go back to Japan or go to the U.S. since it's my home country. After a couple of minutes discussion it was agreed that I could choose any destination I want. They agreed that Thai Immigration doesn't care where you go.

 

I went online and booked the next flight on Thai Air to Phnom Penh. Once the Thai Air staff saw my reservation in their system they told me what time to meet them at the gate to get my passport. I then waited in the lounge until it was time for my flight.

 

In my case, the airline at first did say I would have to go back to where I departed or go to my home country, but with just a little resistance they quickly agreed it didn't matter where I go.

I think that the situation which you have described is somewhat unusual.  Please don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting that you have concocted this story.  In fact I believe the key to your ‘luck’ of being able to determine where you fly too, after having been denied entry because the IO thought that you were working, is down to the fact that you travelled from Japan in business class and Thai Air didn’t want to upset one of their premium passengers (even if Immigration did).

 

Most plebs who travelled ‘cattle class’ and get denied entry at BKK are held in the detention room which is managed by the Airport of Thailand (AOT) security.  The airline staff come to the 

facility to arrange their departing flight and the individual is not allowed to leave the facility until their departing flight is ready to board.

 

The normal procedure is that shortly before the flight is scheduled for passenger embarkation, the person is escorted to the gate by security and allowed to board the plane before the other passengers.  Security gives their passport to the purser who will return it to the person upon arrival at the destination.

 

Maybe the moral of this is travel to Thailand in First or Business class so if you get denied entry you can chose where you fly too.

 

5 hours ago, KCM said:

From the moment I left the Immigration office I didn't have contact again with anyone from Thai Immigration.

You may not have had further contact with Immigration once you left their office after having been denied entry, but the airline certainly will have. 

 

The airline staff will have had to notify the IO of the details of your departing flight to Phnom Penh.  The IO will then have exit stamped your passport and annotated it with your departing flight number.  Again, you are lucky that the IO allowed you to fly to Phnom Penh and not insist (as they can) that the airline return you to your original port of embarkation.

[Ro54]

My wife and me(both Scandinavian origin) arrived to DMK from Saigon yesterday (stayed 4 nights). Chose different immigration que. I was stopped, and waited more than 2 hours there before I was allowed entry... Been staying less than 180 days in Thailand last 4 years, as we are only working in our Homeland the other half of the year. Always arrived with 60 day Visa, do extension, fly out to a neighbour country, stay a few days, fly back, extension, repeat until we fly home. 

I was told I had stayed 284 days in Thailand, the last 14-15 months. She also said I had to stay in my Homeland more than 310(aprx.) before I could return again. I think she didn't see my wife waiting for me, until an hour had passed...so that could be the reason for letting me enter a bit later....  

Never had overstay, and have been visiting since 2010, but only 15-30 days the earlier years.. We travel the country by big bike, relax, and enjoy the climate here, and would like to continue staying here during winter. Now, will a MEntry Visa be safer? Just to avoid this? Haven't applied for METV before, as we usually plan as we go, and where...

Have visited  Malaysia, Vietnam, and Laos until now... 

[lovethai123]

50 minutes ago, Ro54 said:

 

have been visiting since 2010, but ? Just to avoid this? Haven't applied for METV before, as we usually plan as we go, and where...

Have visited  Malaysia, Vietnam, and Laos until now... 

You still wanna visit again after this harassment. Find another country where you are welcomed. 

 

Sorry if I have been rude to you.

Edited February 24, 2020 by lovethai123

[Ro54]

Well, the Visa rules states that the immigration officer has the final say....

It's just not fun when you don't really know why they detain you, as I don't work in Thailand, just enjoy staying here. I cannot see that I have broken any laws/rules, except staying on SE and flying in/out two times. Guess I will apply for Multiple next time. Just have to plan better... I have so many good friends here, both Thai & expats ...

 

And, I'm not offended by your answer..????. 

4 hours ago, lovethai123 said:

You still wanna visit again after this harassment. Find another country where you are welcomed. 

 

Sorry if I have been rude to you.

 

[Hal65]

7 hours ago, Ro54 said:

Now, will a MEntry Visa be safer? Just to avoid this? Haven't applied for METV before, as we usually plan as we go, and where...

Can't speak to the METV, but it sounds like your days in Thailand are starting to cause concern at the IO (immigration officer) counter.

 

To solve this you may want to come in through safer entry points

 

Risky entry points mentioned by others:

1. BKK airport
2. DMK airport
3. Phuket airport
4. Poipet border crossing

 

Safe border crossings:

 

1. Chiang Mai airport
2. Utapao airport
3. Most other airports
4. Most other borders (I can vouch for Ban Pakard in Chonthaburi)

 

[Ro54]

Thanks for the information! Guess I'll follow the advice.

[drbeach]

On 2/17/2020 at 9:08 PM, rabang said:

 

 

This is why I would avoid flying from countries that I can't access without a visa if I am denied entry. Next time I will go to Vietnam I will probably return via Malaysia or Singapore to Thailand due to this 30 day gap requirement.

You might want to consider entering Thailand by land, or flying to an entry point close to the Thai border (such as Vientiane) and then entering by land from there. If you then need to fly within Thailand, Udon Thani airport is located just 50km south of the Thai-Lao border.

 

SE Asia isn't very big so I fail to see the need to fly HCMC-BKK or SIN-BKK. Since avoiding scrutinizing immigration authorities is the domain of those on tourist visas or exemptions, and by definition a tourist in this case is someone with time (short-term tourists don't have to worry as only long-term ones are stopped by Thai immigration), there is little excuse for not going the land route or another more circuitous method of entry, even if a little inconvenient, it's hardly that bad.

 

Entering by land also eliminates the problem of what to do in the unlikely event you're refused - the other side simply cancels the exit stamp and you're free to remain in that country until the original permitted to date.

[drbeach]

On 2/18/2020 at 3:39 PM, pookondee said:

Its a good point.

You see folks on here hanging around in Thailand until they are absolutely bitter and negative about everything Thailand.

And a mindset like that can follow you around everywhere in the end.

 

Much better scenario is, like you said, spend time back home, (or various other places) and cut down on time in LOS if its giving you grief.

 

Its a ++ idea really.

Cutting ties to your homeland is a bad idea these days, since Thailand feels the need to change immigration laws willy-nilly.

The next change might be the one that prices you out of the market.

 

The guys with family ties (stuck) i feel sorry for.

Essentially they are kow-towing to the whims of a few very ignorant, nationalistic, rich xxxxs, who

really dont give a fig about anyone but themselves. 

Certainly not their own poor country-men, whom farangs are supporting.

 

As for getting denied, I still cannot believe you will be denied if you only go there 6-9 months per year,

get a visa from your own country..

 

Provided you have no shady history and your country isnt one that gets "scrutinised" more than others.

 

If they send you back, just wipe 'em.

 

Who wants to stay in a country that does that to you?..

when you are doing nothing wrong, just spending and bringing in foriegn $.

 

They will learn eventually.

 

 

 

Thai immigration isn't really changing the rules so much as enforcing the rule that someone who is a tourist can't spend an indeterminate amount of time here living on visa waivers or tourist visas. Almost every case I have read about here, is from someone like that.

 

I too would NEVER cut ties with my home country to "reside" somewhere permanently or semi-permanently on tourist visas, even if it looks like the authorities in that country tolerate it. Sooner or later, laws will change and it won't be possible anymore. Vietnam is the next country that's going to apply to - tourist visas only 30 days starting in July.

 

I keep hearing the "I'm spending $" but the problem is...you're here permanently on a tourist visa. Get the right visa and then you can spend all you want. Or spend 2 months a year here like legitimate tourists do. If you're married to a Thai you can get a marriage visa. Then you can live here. If you're old (50+) you can get a retirement visa.

[drbeach]

On 2/17/2020 at 4:27 PM, donnacha said:

Bangkok can no longer fulfill the role of regional air hub.

Regardless of the reasons for the current bias against Westerners, the practical reality is that even Westerners with valid visas are frequently being denied entry at both DMK and BKK. The risk is low but high enough to make it unwise to get a long distance flight to either airport.

For about three years, I have been suggesting that Westerners visiting Thailand should fly into one of the more professional regional hubs - such as Kuala Lumpur, Hong Kong, or Singapore - and catch a connecting flight to their destination in Thailand. If you do get stopped in Bangkok, you will at least only have to buy a relatively cheap last-minute ticket back to your last point of departure.

Your best bet is to skip Bangkok entirely. For example, you can fly directly to Chiang Mai from almost every other major city in the region, or even Qatar.

Hopefully attitudes will change after the junta falls but, for now, avoiding direct long distance flights into Bangkok is the smart play.

What "bias" against westerners? Against western governments maybe, but certainly not against your average western tourist.

 

However, I can see where the government might be concerned - western "tourist" who has spent 90% of his time in Thailand over the past 2 years wants to convince immigration he's "just a tourist". Try that in any western country, you'll be deported pronto.

 

Although if you're in the category of "might have spent a little bit too much time here" then getting a flight to a "friendlier" airport is an idea, I'll give you that.

[BritTim]

4 minutes ago, drbeach said:

Thai immigration isn't really changing the rules so much as enforcing the rule that someone who is a tourist can't spend an indeterminate amount of time here living on visa waivers or tourist visas. Almost every case I have read about here, is from someone like that.

The problem is that the "rule" that supposedly exists limiting time on tourist visas is not specified in any official law or regulation. Further, the rule only applies at certain entry points into Thailand. Expecting, say, snowbirds to be aware of the entry points where the "rule" applies, and the precise limits at each entry point that impose limits does not seem to me reasonable.

[drbeach]

On 2/17/2020 at 6:18 PM, donnacha said:

And zero "you come too many times" nonsense.

Just imagine how useful that would be for other S.E. Asian countries hoping to boost their tourist industries in the face of a rising currency and a fatal pandemic. Not thinking of any country in particular, of course.

 

That's pure speculation. How many westerners spend most of their time living in Malaysia on tourist visas or exemptions? I'm quite sure if you were to make Malaysia your home on 30-90 day visa waivers, eventually immigration will pull you aside.

 

This forum is Thaivisa, not Malaysiavisa, hence we don't know how many westerners are getting denied entry into Malaysia. However, anecdotal evidence from Singapore shows it's quite easy to get denied - read here on TV about a Thai lady who had spent 3 weeks out of a 30 day visa waiver in that country. After a few weeks, she comes back for a proposed stay of a few days and gets denied entry. She NEVER overstayed nor did she spend "too much time" in Singapore. Yet she was denied. That's far worse than what Thai immigration is doing. Indeed, no foreigner who only spent 3 weeks in Thailand gets denied entry on their next visit, if they don't have a documented record of spending lots of time in Thailand recently.

[drbeach]

1 minute ago, BritTim said:

The problem is that the "rule" that supposedly exists limiting time on tourist visas is not specified in any official law or regulation. Further, the rule only applies at certain entry points into Thailand. Expecting, say, snowbirds to be aware of the entry points where the "rule" applies, and the precise limits at each entry point that impose limits does not seem to me reasonable.

It's no different from the USA, UK, Canada, New Zealand or Australia. I have watched many episodes of "border security" from all 5 countries to know of examples of travelers who were denied entry on their second visit. The usual scenario is - stay almost as long as your visa allows (3-6 months), then leave for a short period and attempt to come back for the second time on a multi entry visa. Then they get denied and banned from re-entering for 3 years or so. Where's the "official" time limit that tourists can spend in these countries? Doesn't exist either. Depends on the officer.

[donnacha]

3 minutes ago, drbeach said:

What "bias" against westerners? Against western governments maybe, but certainly not against your average western tourist.

Western governments are not getting stopped at airport immigration, individual western citizens are.

Bias does not mean a blanket action against all members of a group. In this case, it means a general feeling that westerners are no longer desirable, leading to tougher treatment of edge cases.

We are not necessarily disagreeing here. The well-documented change in attitude towards westerners is causing problems for westerners who were previously welcome. That you consider them to deserve this treatment does not mean it is not a bias. The word bias does not, in itself, mean unjustified prejudice, for that you would have to say "unfair bias".

 

[observer90210]

My question is of no help, but why does the OP feel he would be refused entry ? if I may...

[donnacha]

8 minutes ago, drbeach said:

This forum is Thaivisa, not Malaysiavisa, hence we don't know how many westerners are getting denied entry into Malaysia.

You know that you are allowed to read more than one forum, right?

Many of us keeps tabs on, and spend time time in, a number of countries.
 

 

10 minutes ago, drbeach said:

That's pure speculation.

It is a fact that Malaysian immigration have straightforward rules geared towards making it easy for their airports to be used as a predictable hub.

In stark contrast to Thailand, the component parts of the Malaysian government and authorities are generally aligned towards the same goal. Individual airport IOs are not empowered to undermine the national interest simply because they have a hangover and are feeling more irritable or racist today.

 

[BritTim]

17 minutes ago, drbeach said:

It's no different from the USA, UK, Canada, New Zealand or Australia. I have watched many episodes of "border security" from all 5 countries to know of examples of travelers who were denied entry on their second visit. The usual scenario is - stay almost as long as your visa allows (3-6 months), then leave for a short period and attempt to come back for the second time on a multi entry visa. Then they get denied and banned from re-entering for 3 years or so. Where's the "official" time limit that tourists can spend in these countries? Doesn't exist either. Depends on the officer.

This is the common response to the argument that Thai law imposes no official limits on the frequency and duration of visits to Thailand as a tourist: point out that many (actually most) other countries give their immigration officials full discretion to deny entry, and argue that this should apply to Thai immigration officials also. I think many senior immigration officials are of the same opinion, but I do not buy it. The fact is that those who drafted the Thai Immigration Act were clear that such discretion only applied to the Minister, not to individual immigration officials. I believe there were good reasons (limiting scope for corruption) in making the conditions for denied entry clearcut, and preventing individual officials from being able to override them. If Thailand wishes to change their own laws, they ought to do so, not selectively decide to adopt the laws of other countries instead without any announcement.

[rabang]

4 hours ago, drbeach said:

You might want to consider entering Thailand by land, or flying to an entry point close to the Thai border (such as Vientiane) and then entering by land from there. If you then need to fly within Thailand, Udon Thani airport is located just 50km south of the Thai-Lao border.

 

SE Asia isn't very big so I fail to see the need to fly HCMC-BKK or SIN-BKK. Since avoiding scrutinizing immigration authorities is the domain of those on tourist visas or exemptions, and by definition a tourist in this case is someone with time (short-term tourists don't have to worry as only long-term ones are stopped by Thai immigration), there is little excuse for not going the land route or another more circuitous method of entry, even if a little inconvenient, it's hardly that bad.

 

Entering by land also eliminates the problem of what to do in the unlikely event you're refused - the other side simply cancels the exit stamp and you're free to remain in that country until the original permitted to date.

I would fly via another country if I truly wanted to visit that place. In my case I would visit KL or Singapore as well. Otherwise I would probably do as you say and try a land border.

[yogi100]

On 2/17/2020 at 8:01 PM, AlexCanada said:

but how would someone pay 800 baht per night if they supposedly have no access to an ATM?  

 

Another question I understand Thailand Immigration requires you to 20,000 Thai baht to enter Thailand.  I have always abided by this rule since I heard about it.  Would a person be denied entry for the sole reason they are not carrying 20,000 Thai baht when they enter Thailand?

It is said that the equivalent in any currency or access to the same funds is OK.

 

But it will naturally depend on the mood of the officials concerned.

 

It'd be funny were it not for the fact that we've just spent a fortune on a flight to get to Thailand in the first place.

[ubonjoe]

Several post with false info, baiting, bickering and the resultant replies have been removed. A repeat of it will result in formal warning.