Money in a Thai Bank in case of death

[Krataiboy]

9 minutes ago, saengd said:

Can you imagine what a circus it would be if everyone who was trying to save a few quid in legal by doing their own probate was in there conducting probate, the judge would be going nuts.

So you don't have a source?

[natway09]

I think you will find that your partner would be breaking the law if she used your ATM for an account 

in your name only if she was aware that you had died

[saengd]

2 hours ago, Krataiboy said:

So you don't have a source?

No I don't, I can't find anything that confirms either way, just the usual boiler plate advertising by lawyers below. 

 

One part of this will be understanding the process and sequence you have to go through to complete probate, another part is having the authority to act. 

 

http://www.thailand-lawyer.com/probate.html

https://gam-legalalliance.com/legal-services/probate-in-thailand/

 

[Krataiboy]

21 minutes ago, saengd said:

No I don't, I can't find anything that confirms either way, just the usual boiler plate advertising by lawyers below. 

 

One part of this will be understanding the process and sequence you have to go through to complete probate, another part is having the authority to act. 

 

http://www.thailand-lawyer.com/probate.html

https://gam-legalalliance.com/legal-services/probate-in-thailand/

 

Appreciate the links, thanks.

[Sea Traveller]

15 hours ago, Captor said:

Hi

What do you exactly mean by official archive? I checked this up a couple of years ago and Sweden dont have official archive anymore. However there are some Layers that have archives that you have to pay for. Is that what you are thinking of?

Hi the original testament I have made in Sweden has been sent to something called SBF (Sveriges Begravningsbyråers Förbund) as storing it for an one time fee of 1.995 SEK. I can there for same amount keep ut to 10 documents of up to max. 40 pages which will be come up in case in case of my death as how the system rolls without any action required from any relatives.. I can add or change for  a additional fee of 495 SEK. I have also place some copies of my Tetament on some different places in addition to this. 

[Sea Traveller]

7 hours ago, saengd said:

A Thai will should cover only assets in Thailand, any overseas assets should be governed by a separate will in the country where the assets are located.

Yes this how it is planned to be. One will for assets in Sweden and one for Thailand as in my case. As for my de facto partner same but separate of course.

[Captor]

7 minutes ago, Sea Traveller said:

Hi the original testament I have made in Sweden has been sent to something called SBF (Sveriges Begravningsbyråers Förbund) as storing it for an one time fee of 1.995 SEK. I can there for same amount keep ut to 10 documents of up to max. 40 pages which will be come up in case in case of my death as how the system rolls without any action required from any relatives.. I can add or change for  a additional fee of 495 SEK. I have also place some copies of my Tetament on some different places in addition to this. 

Hi Sea Traveller, OK that is a private alternative. But that sounds good anyway. I have been missing something like this myself in Sweden. The cost is reasonable I think. Before this it was Länstyrelsen who did this for free (for the taxmoney). But they stopped doing that.

And then there was only layers who solved this with a vault in some bank where they stored this for a quite high fee. But this alternative sounds very good. I guess they are connected with Skatteverket (Swedish tax agency) so they will be notified if someone die abroad. I will contact them as well when it is time for my testament. Thanks for the tip.

[Sea Traveller]

3 hours ago, natway09 said:

I think you will find that your partner would be breaking the law if she used your ATM for an account 

in your name only if she was aware that you had died

Thanks! I have seen also others pointing on this and I will in conjunction to make my will in Thailand try to make sure is not get any problems. For example to let the lawyer I appoint to explain in Thai languge for my partner of how she should act and also Not act...

[Sea Traveller]

3 minutes ago, Captor said:

Hi Sea Traveller, OK that is a private alternative. But that sounds good anyway. I have been missing something like this myself in Sweden. The cost is reasonable I think. Before this it was Länstyrelsen who did this for free (for the taxmoney). But they stopped doing that.

And then there was only layers who solved this with a vault in some bank where they stored this for a quite high fee. But this alternative sounds very good. I guess they are connected with Skatteverket (Swedish tax agency) so they will be notified if someone die abroad. I will contact them as well when it is time for my testament. Thanks for the tip.

Hi Captor, Yes is private but is connected with Swedish tax agency so that part is the official. I contacted something called ”Avtal24” in Sweden that helped me do my Testament and Avtal24 suggested me to send the original after been witnessed to SBF.

[Captor]

16 minutes ago, Sea Traveller said:

Hi Captor, Yes is private but is connected with Swedish tax agency so that part is the official. I contacted something called ”Avtal24” in Sweden that helped me do my Testament and Avtal24 suggested me to send the original after been witnessed to SBF.

OK avtal24 do testaments as well. I was going to contact the caretaker for that but maybe avtal24 is fine as well. May I ask how much that cost to make a simple testament at avtal24? Roughly?

[Sea Traveller]

1 hour ago, Captor said:

OK avtal24 do testaments as well. I was going to contact the caretaker for that but maybe avtal24 is fine as well. May I ask how much that cost to make a simple testament at avtal24? Roughly?

I did get an discount of 20% but I don’t remember if it was through Länsförsäkringar or SEB bank in Sweden?  I paid Thus 4.990 SEK and is maybe a little but to much as my Testament was very straight forward, but I wanted just get it done... I got an e-mail with some questions from Avtal24 to think over before I had a telephone meeting with lawyer that then sent the testament to me. This was two years ago.

[overherebc]

Spend 500,000 on an elite visa,

( 5 years 100,000 a year )

Transfer in every month what you need and keep the rest in Sweden.

[JimGant]

On 2/18/2020 at 4:25 PM, Sea Traveller said:

From this let’s say I die and I want that the money should go to my relationship partner. What do I need to already do now so my relationship partner could just go to Bangkok bank office and collect the money? A last will testament in Thailand only or something I need also to do at Bangkok bank or more?

Surprised no one has mentioned this......

 

Make her a co-signatory to your account. This does NOT make it a joint account, so it doesn't screw up the account's viability for annual retirement extensions. What happens is, they'll record her particulars, plus signature, and issue you a new passbook. Her signature is not visible, except under UV. And there's no mention of her name on the passbook. But she can show up with your passbook and withdraw. Kinda like a power of attorney. And this parallel also says she's not supposed to exercise the option were you deceased. But, because of the probate fiasco (see further), best she clean out your account soonest after your death. Of course, even if she didn't have signature authority, she could also do this -- less legally -- with an ibanking transfer (assuming you'd set up those mechanics ahead of time).

 

Probate is NOT required in Thailand, except where someone cries foul about the named executor/adminstrator -- or about the Will's designated beneficiaries.

Quote

 ... settlement of assets in Thailand through a Thai Last Will and Testament is more convenient and practical. For one, Thai law does not require probate of Last Will and Testaments before it can be enforced.

https://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/lastwill-testament.php

But the Thai lawyer mafia has put the fear of lawsuit in the minds of many bank managers and land office administrators. And the lawyer mafia has even maintained that amphur Wills, i.e., those done by poor farmers with few assets, and who can't afford lawyer fees -- now be subject to probate. So, yeah, as saengd has been briefed, her bank manager will insist on probate. Scared of lawsuit, I guess. (But as NancyL has discovered, there are bank managers out there who will dispense with the probate requirement.)

 

But what's the worst that could happen? Your wife's Will names you as sole beneficiary and executor (most common example, I'm sure). No one is going to contest this 99% of the time. So you clean out the wife's bank account as co-signatore -- tho' strictly speaking, maybe not completely kosher after death. But, it's an easily done fait accompli. And who's to cry foul? No jilted beneficiary, no jilted Will executor. This is what they call "absence of malice." So who's harmed -- who's going to press charges? Oh yeah, the lawyer mafia lost their 30,000 baht probate fee. So the timid bank managers fear retribution. Damn lawyers.

 

 

[DrJack54]

34 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Surprised no one has mentioned this......

 

Make her a co-signatory to your account. This does NOT make it a joint account, so it doesn't screw up the account's viability for annual retirement extensions. What happens is, they'll record her particulars, plus signature, and issue you a new passbook. Her signature is not visible, except under UV. And there's no mention of her name on the passbook. But she can show up with your passbook and withdraw. Kinda like a power of attorney. And this parallel also says she's not supposed to exercise the option were you deceased. But, because of the probate fiasco (see further), best she clean out your account soonest after your death. Of course, even if she didn't have signature authority, she could also do this -- less legally -- with an ibanking transfer (assuming you'd set up those mechanics ahead of time).

 

Probate is NOT required in Thailand, except where someone cries foul about the named executor/adminstrator -- or about the Will's designated beneficiaries.

But the Thai lawyer mafia has put the fear of lawsuit in the minds of many bank managers and land office administrators. And the lawyer mafia has even maintained that amphur Wills, i.e., those done by poor farmers with few assets, and who can't afford lawyer fees -- now be subject to probate. So, yeah, as saengd has been briefed, her bank manager will insist on probate. Scared of lawsuit, I guess. (But as NancyL has discovered, there are bank managers out there who will dispense with the probate requirement.)

 

But what's the worst that could happen? Your wife's Will names you as sole beneficiary and executor (most common example, I'm sure). No one is going to contest this 99% of the time. So you clean out the wife's bank account as co-signatore -- tho' strictly speaking, maybe not completely kosher after death. But, it's an easily done fait accompli. And who's to cry foul? No jilted beneficiary, no jilted Will executor. This is what they call "absence of malice." So who's harmed -- who's going to press charges? Oh yeah, the lawyer mafia lost their 30,000 baht probate fee. So the timid bank managers fear retribution. Damn lawyers.

 

 

That's serious gear your on.

Accessing a bank a/c post death is very illegal. Even in Thailand. You dream that up somehow. 

[Captor]

3 hours ago, Sea Traveller said:

I did get an discount of 20% but I don’t remember if it was through Länsförsäkringar or SEB bank in Sweden?  I paid Thus 4.990 SEK and is maybe a little but to much as my Testament was very straight forward, but I wanted just get it done... I got an e-mail with some questions from Avtal24 to think over before I had a telephone meeting with lawyer that then sent the testament to me. This was two years ago.

That sounds very easy and neat. Thank you very much for sharing the info. I will probably use them as well.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Accessing a bank a/c post death is very illegal

Actually, it was our bank manager, who the wife frequently has lunch with, that suggested it. She said she rarely sees probated estate settlements and never sees probated amphur wills. I guess that's how things are out in the sticks, populated by poor rice farmers. But, yeah, I guess I should play it straight and tell the wife to hire a lawyer to probate my Will, paying 30000 baht, and waiting months, to have the single asset in my Will -- my 800k retirement extension bank account -- finally sent to the single beneficiary in the Will -- HER.

 

"Very illegal?"  What if she does it before the death certificate is issued by the tessaban -- would that be only slight illegal? And would any legal action be criminal or civil? And who would press the charges -- the bank manager, local prosecutor, lawyers' lobby, who?

 

But, thanx for your concern -- I think...

[novo58]

It is usually possible to have someone else as a signatory to your account...even though their name does not appear on  the account. I have this with my partner....so , in the event of my death she " could" simply go to the bank and make a withdrawal.....of course there is nothing stopping her from doing this at any time either.

 

Simply ask your bank  !!!!

 

@jimgrant ...just saw your post ...........as a co-signatory there is NOTHING illegal if she cleans out the account before OR AFTER death

[saengd]

57 minutes ago, novo58 said:

It is usually possible to have someone else as a signatory to your account...even though their name does not appear on  the account. I have this with my partner....so , in the event of my death she " could" simply go to the bank and make a withdrawal.....of course there is nothing stopping her from doing this at any time either.

 

Simply ask your bank  !!!!

 

@jimgrant ...just saw your post ...........as a co-signatory there is NOTHING illegal if she cleans out the account before OR AFTER death

You are wrong on this point, the account of somebody who has died is frozen, unless it is an "or" account.

[saengd]

15 hours ago, saengd said:

You are wrong on this point, the account of somebody who has died is frozen, unless it is an "or" account.

The usual emoticon clicking whack jobs still wont have it, try this for size:

 

" if any of the co-Depositors dies, the other surviving co-Depositor(s) shall have the right to withdraw the money from the joint account, either in full or in part. If the Bank has been informed of the death of any co-Depositor, the Bank may not pay the other surviving co-Depositor(s). The surviving co-Depositor(s), together with the administrator of the estate or the deceased’s heirs (as the case may be), shall withdraw the money or close the account unless the Bank orders otherwise".

 

https://www.kasikornbank.com/th/personal/Account/Documents/Marketconduct_basic-banking_en.pdf

 

Note: a co-signer is not a co-Depositer, somebody who simply signs on the account is not an account owner.

Person X AND Person Y = joint account.

Person X OR Person Y = effectively two single unconnected accounts

Co-Signer = a person who is authorized to make withdrawals only, not an account owner.

 

 

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, saengd said:

If the Bank has been informed of the death of any co-Depositor [joint owner], the Bank may not pay the other surviving co-Depositor(s) [joint owners].     my brackets

Interesting. We've seen on other Will threads on TV a few examples of bank managers freezing joint accounts; this seems to say Kasikorn bank IF INFORMED OF THE DEATH may freeze the joint account. Raises the question of how informed -- probably informed by a disgruntled potential heir, which further indicates joint accounts CAN be subject to probate, unlike in the US, where the joint owner is the designated beneficiary, same as a Pay on Death beneficiary, and thus not subject to probate. Anyway, if Bangkok Bank has similar language, I'm not too concerned about a disgruntled heir, as the wife is sole beneficiary in my Will; plus the executor; and plus the joint owner in our joint account. Nevertheless, will brief the wife to move the assets in our joint account to her account upon my death.

 

Quote

In cases where the Depositor authorizes another person to withdraw money from the deposit account on the Depositor’s behalf, if the Depositor dies without a written notice given by the Depositor’s heirs to the Bank, and the Bank has paid the money in accordance with the conditions given to the Bank, the Depositor shall agree that the payment made by the Bank is correct, and the Bank shall have no responsibility to the Depositor or the Depositor’s heirs.

This seems to fit an example of accounts with co-signers, but not co-owners. And suggests the co-signer can empty the account after the owner's death -- unless the bank has received a written notice from a potential heir. Ergo: It's legal for my wife, as co-signer to my solely owned account used for visa extensions, to empty my account after my death, since there are no other heirs in my Will (who could protest), other than my wife, the co-signer.

[saengd]

31 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Interesting. We've seen on other Will threads on TV a few examples of bank managers freezing joint accounts; this seems to say Kasikorn bank IF INFORMED OF THE DEATH may freeze the joint account. Raises the question of how informed -- probably informed by a disgruntled potential heir, which further indicates joint accounts CAN be subject to probate, unlike in the US, where the joint owner is the designated beneficiary, same as a Pay on Death beneficiary, and thus not subject to probate. Anyway, if Bangkok Bank has similar language, I'm not too concerned about a disgruntled heir, as the wife is sole beneficiary in my Will; plus the executor; and plus the joint owner in our joint account. Nevertheless, will brief the wife to move the assets in our joint account to her account upon my death.

 

This seems to fit an example of accounts with co-signers, but not co-owners. And suggests the co-signer can empty the account after the owner's death -- unless the bank has received a written notice from a potential heir. Ergo: It's legal for my wife, as co-signer to my solely owned account used for visa extensions, to empty my account after my death, since there are no other heirs in my Will (who could protest), other than my wife, the co-signer.

I think if you look at the T & C's when you open an account there is an obligation on all parties to inform the bank if one of the parties to the account dies, that being the case the above is really just boiler plate or covering the bases to protect them against liability if they are not informed.

 

Elsewhere in the document is a section that deals with unpaid taxes and the tax assessors need to ensure they are informed of the death before the account is emptied or closed.

 

I continue to remain convinced that the workaround is the OR/AND approach to the account which is simple enough if only people are aware of it. We specifically approached our bank on this issue for this very reason and that was their advice, I cannot believe that UOB operates their accounts any differently to the other banks in Thailand.

[SantiSuk]

This thread appears to be about a case where there is a Thai will. I am assisting the Thai widow of a recently deceased UK husband. There is a UK* will and the Executor, his brother, lives in the UK. There is no Thai will. The Thai wife is seeking to recover the 100,000 ThB balance from the husband's only Thai bank account with Bangkok Bank in Bangkok (and close it). She needs the money quickly to contribute to having paid funeral expenses.

 

The amphur office advised her that if she took the death certificate and their marriage certificate to the bank they would release funds to her as spouse. That seemed a little dubious to me as the intestacy rules in Thailand that I had researched had suggested that 50% of an intestate Thai estate should go to the surviving brother and sister - they being the surviving relatives next in line down the intestacy rules chain). More dubious still since there are 2 other beneficiaries (including the Executor, both of whom agree she can take the money for reimbursement of funeral expenses and it will be a charge to the gross assets of the estate). I suspect she did not tell the amphur about the existence of a will in the UK.

 

Notwithstanding my curiosity over the amphur's advice, the local Bangkok Bank branch (500km from Bangkok) seemed confident that the funds would be released by the deceased's Bangkok account branch (but not them); i.e.when she took the said certificates to our local amphur Bangkok Bank branch they said she would need to visit the Bangkok branch to obtain the money and close the account. I suspect she did not tell the local branch about the existence of a Thai will either.

 

I arranged for her to connect with someone in the Bangkok branch (Exchange Tower Sukhumvit, so I suspect they are pretty clued up on the circumstances of a foreigner holding an account dying and the bank being approached by representatives or beneficiaries of the estate). She must have told them that there was a UK will and a UK executor as their initial response was that he'd have to come to Bangkok and "present appropriate papers". I had briefed her to go heavy on the Covid angle re not travelling to Bangkok herself (she is scared of contagion and/or quarantines yet to emerge) and she was bright enough and prompted further by me to tell the bank that the Executor would not be able to visit Thailand due to Thailand's ban on Brits coming here. The Bangkok branch did then acknowledge that everything could be sorted out at the local branch, conferencing with us and the Bangkok branch if we had gone through the appropriate procedures first.

 

There was apparently a mention of Court Orders and powers of attorney (I was listening in to the call but could not contribute other than to prompt her occasionally, but discussed the outcome later with my wife and the widow). My initial reaction was that they meant that the UK probate certificate would need to be presented since there is no court involved in the UK. That's a big problem for her as probate can take some time. I was hopeful we could extract the money relatively quickly. Having seen this thread, and noting the comments about requirements for probate and there being a Probate Court here that issues orders, I get very concerned.

 

OK. So my question is: has anyone got experience of extracting funds from a Thai bank when there is no Thai will but there is a UK will ('basic will' per the Executor - no recognition in the will that there might be non-UK assets I think). What processes had to be gone through to get to the money? Was a Thai probate Court required to be involved? Did you need Thai lawyers involved. Yes I know there will probably be little left if the worst comes to pass on process!

*Scottish, but let's not get into the further potential subtleties of Scottish Law here!