Britain's row with Greece over treasures spills into Brexit tensions

[webfact]

Britain's row with Greece over treasures spills into Brexit tensions

By Gabriela Baczynska and John Chalmers

 

FILE PHOTO: The Parthenon Marbles, a collection of stone objects, inscriptions and sculptures, also known as the Elgin Marbles, are displayed at the British Museum in London October 16, 2014. Hollywood actor George Clooney's new wife, human rights lawyer Amal Alamuddin Clooney, made an impassioned plea on for the return of the Parthenon Marbles to Athens, in what Greeks hope may inject new energy into their national campaign. REUTERS/Dylan Martinez/File Photo

 

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - A long-running dispute between Britain and Greece over ancient treasures has spilled into tensions over Brexit after a demand for the return of stolen cultural artefacts was added to the draft of a European Union negotiating mandate.

 

The British Museum in London has refused to return the Parthenon Marbles, 2,500-year-old sculptures that British diplomat Lord Elgin removed from Athens in the early 19th century when Greece was under Ottoman Turkish rule.

 

A draft of the 27 EU nations' position on negotiations with Britain on their future relationship, which was seen by Reuters on Tuesday, seeks the "return or restitution of unlawfully removed cultural objects to their countries of origin".

 

The document did not specify any cultural objects.

 

However, an EU diplomat said the line was added at the request of Greece, with support from Italy.

 

Greece's culture minister said last month that Athens would step up its campaign for the return of the Parthenon Marbles from London and expected to win more support from European peers as Brexit diminishes Britain's influence.

 

The British Museum says the marbles, which are roughly half of a 160-metre frieze that adorned the fifth century BC Parthenon temple, were acquired by Elgin under a legal contract with the Ottoman empire. Greece says they were stolen.

 

A British government spokeswoman, commenting on the draft EU document, said the UK's position on the sculptures remained that they are "the legal responsibility of the British Museum".

 

"That is not up for discussion as part of our trade negotiations," the spokeswoman said in a statement.

 

British Prime Minister Boris Johnson led the UK out of the European Union on Jan. 31, more than three years after Britons voted in a referendum to leave.

 

Rhetoric between London and Brussels over the terms of their future relationship has grown sharper this month ahead of negotiations that are due to start in early March.

 

An EU source, who declined to be named because discussions on the negotiating mandate are confidential, said the reference to stolen artefacts was included in an earlier draft of the document last week.

 

The source said the reference also had support from Cyprus and Spain and that, Greece's concerns about the marbles aside, EU countries were more broadly concerned about the illegal trade of artefacts through London auction houses.

 

(Editing by Giles Elgood)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2020-02-19

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[Bluespunk]

They were stolen and should be returned to Greece, however it is nonsense for their return to form part of any trade deal. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Bluespunk

[RichardColeman]

Wonder if the EU will put in a demand for all its citizens and migrants back ? Nah, doubt it.

[sirineou]

Britain's argument  was that It was safekeeping the artifacts because Greece did not have adequate resources to properly maintain them, and there was a time that this argument might have had some merit. 

The wife and me were in greece on vacation a couple of years ago and had the occasion to visit the new Acropolis museum,. A better facility does not exist anywhere in the world .

https://news.gtp.gr/2017/09/20/tripadvisor-acropolis-museum-best-world/

That argument no longer holds water so now they are arguing that they were legally purchased from the Ottomans. If they really believe this I have a bridge to sell them. 

[martin3]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

Britain's argument  was that It was safekeeping the artifacts because Greece did not have adequate resources to properly maintain them, and there was a time that this argument might have had some merit. 

The wife and me were in greece on vacation a couple of years ago and had the occasion to visit the new Acropolis museum,. A better facility does not exist anywhere in the world .

https://news.gtp.gr/2017/09/20/tripadvisor-acropolis-museum-best-world/

That argument no longer holds water so now they are arguing that they were legally purchased from the Ottomans. If they really believe this I have a bridge to sell them. 

you can keep the bridge,its worth less now as you made it shorter and sold of small pieces of the rest of the stones to tourists..lol

[Rookiescot]

Don't these Johnny Foreigners know that the UK has every right to keep stuff we stole.

[cmarshall]

The Brits are going to lose Gibraltar, the Elgin Marbles, and their offshore tax evasion center, the Cayman Islands, has already been blacklisted by the EU.  Other tax havens to follow no doubt.  Nice work, Boris.

[sammieuk1]

It looks like the Torys dont want to deport anything thats worth a few bob ????

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

They were stolen and should be returned to Greece, however it is nonsense for their return to form part of any trade deal. 

No doubt the Spanish will additionally throw in the return of Gibralter while we are at it. That was presumably 'stolen' as well.

[SheungWan]

26 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

The Brits are going to lose Gibraltar, the Elgin Marbles, and their offshore tax evasion center, the Cayman Islands, has already been blacklisted by the EU.  Other tax havens to follow no doubt.  Nice work, Boris.

And the EU will surrender Luxembourg.

[Vigilante]

2 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

They were stolen and should be returned to Greece, however it is nonsense for their return to form part of any trade deal. 

Well, other avenues were tried for 30 years

They didn't work.

 

[evadgib]

Greece has denied they are behind this clause according to Sky news.

[JonnyF]

Good to see our "friends and partners" in the EU keeping their word and showing best endeavours and good faith in these negotiations. I can't say I'm surprised by their attitude, if they were in any way reasonable then we wouldn't have left their protectionist racket in the first place. It's like a psychopathic ex-girlfriend sending you spiteful text messages which only serves to remind you why it was the correct decision to leave her. 

 

Hopefully this takes us one step closer to an Australian style trade deal. ???? 

 

 

[Sujo]

12 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Good to see our "friends and partners" in the EU keeping their word and showing best endeavours and good faith in these negotiations. I can't say I'm surprised by their attitude, if they were in any way reasonable then we wouldn't have left their protectionist racket in the first place. It's like a psychopathic ex-girlfriend sending you spiteful text messages which only serves to remind you why it was the correct decision to leave her. 

 

Hopefully this takes us one step closer to an Australian style trade deal. ???? 

 

 

Why should the eu care what uk wants. The job of the eu is to care about eu members.

 

The only option for uk is to take it or leave it.

[steve187]

1 hour ago, cmarshall said:

The Brits are going to lose Gibraltar, the Elgin Marbles, and their offshore tax evasion center, the Cayman Islands, has already been blacklisted by the EU.  Other tax havens to follow no doubt.  Nice work, Boris.

a true remainder speaks, 

[stevenl]

30 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Good to see our "friends and partners" in the EU keeping their word and showing best endeavours and good faith in these negotiations. I can't say I'm surprised by their attitude, if they were in any way reasonable then we wouldn't have left their protectionist racket in the first place. It's like a psychopathic ex-girlfriend sending you spiteful text messages which only serves to remind you why it was the correct decision to leave her. 

 

Hopefully this takes us one step closer to an Australian style trade deal. ???? 

 

 

No. It is one member, maybe supported by a few others, to get the topic some more attention. This has nothing to do with trade, so will no doubt not be included in the final document.

[nausea]

Don't care, seen 'em already.

[Rookiescot]

32 minutes ago, stevenl said:

No. It is one member, maybe supported by a few others, to get the topic some more attention. This has nothing to do with trade, so will no doubt not be included in the final document.

Problem is its the final document which has to be ratified by all member states.

 

[sungod]

Whats all the fuss about? Hands hanging off, no heads- looks all broken to me.

[bert bloggs]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

And the EU will surrender Luxembourg.

As long as we dont have to have Brussels ,they can have the marbles ,anyway who plays marbles these days?

[JonnyF]

1 hour ago, Sujo said:

Why should the eu care what uk wants. The job of the eu is to care about eu members.

 

The only option for uk is to take it or leave it.

Because it was in the withdrawal agreement to negotiate in good faith. That's why.

 

Dragging up old issues completely unrelated to trade is not negotiating in good faith nor is it using best endeavours to get things in place expeditiously. Of course, people who understand the spiteful nature of senior EU figures like Verhofstadt will not be surprised by the EU's lack of integrity by failing to live up to what they agreed.  

 

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, sungod said:

Whats all the fuss about? Hands hanging off, no heads- looks all broken to me.

Yes I think it is us that should be pressing for our money back, we were sold a pup.????

 

But how much art did Napolean and the Germans pillage, how much stolen art is still locked away in Swiss vaults, nobody seems very keen to find the rightfull owner of these treasures.

We bought the Marbles!

 

I lost many a good nights sleep after I bought a Renault Megane fearing the French authorities would request its return after a few years, in all honesty it was a little antiquated.

 

[stevenl]

58 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Problem is its the final document which has to be ratified by all member states.

 

A draft is not a final document.

[Baerboxer]

5 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

They were stolen and should be returned to Greece, however it is nonsense for their return to form part of any trade deal. 

 

Providing all other EU member states and associates return art and antiquities stolen from former colonies, stolen during wars and occupations of other countries or received stolen goods held by third party safe haven countries. 

 

 

[Baerboxer]

49 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Because it was in the withdrawal agreement to negotiate in good faith. That's why.

 

Dragging up old issues completely unrelated to trade is not negotiating in good faith nor is it using best endeavours to get things in place expeditiously. Of course, people who understand the spiteful nature of senior EU figures like Verhofstadt will not be surprised by the EU's lack of integrity by failing to live up to what they agreed.  

 

 

Quite right. Good faith is not countries trying to use this as leverage to settle some unrelated score.

 

Bankrupt idle Greece, still hovering about whether to leave the Euro and default on it's debts, doesn't care about any trade deals. Not exactly a EU powerhouse exporting massive amounts. Now Germany might not be so pleased with this Greek idea. Especially as they did their share of looting. 

 

Greece still pretends they're an independent country that can do as they wish. Germany knows better.

[Baerboxer]

What's it gotta do with rich lawyer Clooney?

 

Wonder how many mansions they now own and what their carbon footprints are like?

 

Great example of left wing liberals who want to rule with their do as we say not as we do mantras.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Baerboxer

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Good to see our "friends and partners" in the EU keeping their word and showing best endeavours and good faith in these negotiations. I can't say I'm surprised by their attitude, if they were in any way reasonable then we wouldn't have left their protectionist racket in the first place. It's like a psychopathic ex-girlfriend sending you spiteful text messages which only serves to remind you why it was the correct decision to leave her. 

 

Hopefully this takes us one step closer to an Australian style trade deal. ???? 

 

 

If , when you are squatting in your ex-girlfriend's house, you took her 60" TV back to your own place without her permission, would she not be justified in demanding it's return?

[Scott Tracy]

Send them back. It's all meaningless. They want them, send them back.

 

And send every single other piece of 'bought' or 'stolen' art back whence it came. From everywhere in the world that now has any. Including EU countries, America....

[JonnyF]

29 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

If , when you are squatting in your ex-girlfriend's house, you took her 60" TV back to your own place without her permission, would she not be justified in demanding it's return?

Flew right over your head, didn't it.

 

The point is the return of some old statues is completed unrelated to the UK/EU trade deal. 

[lanng khao]

29 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

If , when you are squatting in your ex-girlfriend's house, you took her 60" TV back to your own place without her permission, would she not be justified in demanding it's return?

Very true, my ex took back all her Bob Marley records and even the satalite dish,, I thought AHH well, no woman no sky...