Schengen Visa - Belgium. Refused

[Jip99]

A friend in Belgium is looking for advice following his girlfriend being refused a visa for a month holiday.

 

The refusal letter cited not enough reasons to return to Thailand and (I think) insufficient funds for the trip.

 

The GF lives at home with her parents and daughter; she is financially supported by the Belgian. The dtro g family ties were highlighted and a character reference was provided by the village headman.

 

With regard to funds for the trip, the boyfriend supplied the normal town hall guarantee. His sponsor letter included evidence of sound employment, assets and ongoing contact in a genuine relationship.

 

This looks like a poor decision to me. Does anyone have any knowledge of the appeals procedure and/or should they just reapply.

[richard_smith237]

But does she have any reason to return to Thailand which would be accepted by a consulate?

 

i.e. Owns property? can show regular income from a job she needs to return to?

 

IMO: Having a child in Thailand is a good reason to return, leaving the child behind in Thailand seems somewhat of a red-flag and the Embassies make their decisions based on ‘balance of probability’, in this case it seems those making the decision have not been able to check off enough ‘check boxes’ to permit the decision. 

 

One option: Delay the application, have a regular stream of income going through your girlfriends account, ask her to get some regular work and have her employer write a letter of reference outlining that she is taking a holiday (limited duration) and she will return to her job. 

 

 

Other options may be to make a holiday booking in an alternative Schengen country and apply there (i.e. France). 

Does your Girlfriend have any recent international travel history? i.e. Japan, Singapore etc and returned, any EU countries? this all helps.

 

 

 

[Jip99]

8 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

But does she have any reason to return to Thailand which would be accepted by a consulate?

 

i.e. Owns property? can show regular income from a job she needs to return to?

 

IMO: Having a child in Thailand is a good reason to return, leaving the child behind in Thailand seems somewhat of a red-flag and the Embassies make their decisions based on ‘balance of probability’, in this case it seems those making the decision have not been able to check off enough ‘check boxes’ to permit the decision. 

 

One option: Delay the application, have a regular stream of income going through your girlfriends account, ask her to get some regular work and have her employer write a letter of reference outlining that she is taking a holiday (limited duration) and she will return to her job. 

 

 

Other options may be to make a holiday booking in an alternative Schengen country and apply there (i.e. France). 

Does your Girlfriend have any recent international travel history? i.e. Japan, Singapore etc and returned, any EU countries? this all helps.

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately, there is no travel history.

 

It seems unfair to consider employment as a visa tactic when the Belgian boyfriend provides adequate support money for the girl and her child. 

 

If a subsequent application fails then I would probably suggest that on his next visit to Thailand they have a couple of days in Cambodia and a couple of days in Laos...

[Donutz]

Belgium is one of the more notorious embassies, with around 8% refusals it comes in second place after Sweden (11% refusals). A knowlagable service point (Kruispunt migratie) for  Belgian visas (and immigration) questions suggests that an appeal is pretty much useless (unlike say the Netherlands).

 

So it's best to apply again and try to show more reasons to return (job, education, care for parents or children etc). A positive visa/travel history to other western countries is also very beneficial. As does applying for a short stay of only a few weeks the first time one travels to Belgium. After all , how many people can leave their home for up to 3 months without obligations such as work getting in the way?

 

If your friend speaks a Dutch (Flamish), he can check out a lengthy  guide I wrote (PDF format) on visas to Belgium and the Netherlands on Thailandblog dot nl. 

[TTSIssues]

On 2/20/2020 at 10:40 AM, richard_smith237 said:

But does she have any reason to return to Thailand which would be accepted by a consulate?

 

i.e. Owns property? can show regular income from a job she needs to return to?

 

IMO: Having a child in Thailand is a good reason to return, leaving the child behind in Thailand seems somewhat of a red-flag and the Embassies make their decisions based on ‘balance of probability’, in this case it seems those making the decision have not been able to check off enough ‘check boxes’ to permit the decision. 

 

One option: Delay the application, have a regular stream of income going through your girlfriends account, ask her to get some regular work and have her employer write a letter of reference outlining that she is taking a holiday (limited duration) and she will return to her job. 

 

 

Other options may be to make a holiday booking in an alternative Schengen country and apply there (i.e. France). 

Does your Girlfriend have any recent international travel history? i.e. Japan, Singapore etc and returned, any EU countries? this all helps.

 

 

 

Exactly this. Having enough money for the trip doesn’t prove she will return to thailand afterwards and that is 99% certainly the issue. She needs regular employment and a letter from the boss confirming her role and the fact she is taking a holiday but must return on XX date. 
 

A friend of mine has this before, the embassy told him that plenty of ladies go to visit boyfriends in Europe and when they get over there, just run and meet up with other Thais already there to work illegally. 
 

she needs a proven travel history and a reason to return. 

[Autonuaq]

On 2/20/2020 at 5:59 PM, Donutz said:

Belgium is one of the more notorious embassies, with around 8% refusals it comes in second place after Sweden (11% refusals). A knowlagable service point (Kruispunt migratie) for  Belgian visas (and immigration) questions suggests that an appeal is pretty much useless (unlike say the Netherlands).

 

So it's best to apply again and try to show more reasons to return (job, education, care for parents or children etc). A positive visa/travel history to other western countries is also very beneficial. As does applying for a short stay of only a few weeks the first time one travels to Belgium. After all , how many people can leave their home for up to 3 months without obligations such as work getting in the way?

 

If your friend speaks a Dutch (Flamish), he can check out a lengthy  guide I wrote (PDF format) on visas to Belgium and the Netherlands on Thailandblog dot nl. 

like Donutz wrote about this skip the appeal that does not work. You have to proof that she has an economical binding to Thailand. A School/teacher letter if the child is at school stating that the mother is actively involved with the child. have some money in the bank on the account on her name.  Have a car registered on her name, some other assets. An employment letter with approved leave of her work for an unpaid month that is equal to her trip to visit Belgium. that makes it plausible that she will return and has a binding to Thailand. Ticket of a return Airplane flight

 

the document you have now provided only showed that she want to come and the changes are that she will stay.

[LivinLOS]

On 2/20/2020 at 3:40 AM, richard_smith237 said:

IMO: Having a child in Thailand is a good reason to return, leaving the child behind in Thailand seems somewhat of a red-flag and the Embassies make their decisions based on ‘balance of probability’, in this case it seems those making the decision have not been able to check off enough ‘check boxes’ to permit the decision. 

I was once informed of the opposite.. That leaving a child with the grandparents implied she may go there to work and overstay. 

Sorry to hear of your friends problems, a bit baffled as I have applied, almost carelessly for 3 different women for many many schengen visas, the last 7 or 8 years annually.. Never has one been refused or questioned. I dont do anything special. 

[theoldgit]

18 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Sorry to hear of your friends problems, a bit baffled as I have applied, almost carelessly for 3 different women for many many schengen visas, the last 7 or 8 years annually.. Never has one been refused or questioned. I dont do anything special. 

But you don't live in Belgium, it's always more difficult when a national wants to bring a Thai person to an EU, UK or US country for a holiday, rather than two foreigners travelling together. 

[justin case]

there is no appeal ...

 

had the same problem 20 years ago with chinese ex wife

 

also signed papers to be financial guarantee, e-mails, photo's, proof of relationship

 

either he moves or goes on holiday, or marries her, wait a few months to get her "marriage" visa and comes to belgium

 

Sad but true

 

illegals / fake refugies on the other hand, have no problem to getting into Belgium, getting social housing, 800 euro living allowance, the right to import that whole family, including grandparents,  everybody will get social welfare + housing

 

but if you are a CITIZEN, forget it ... you are on your OWN !!!

 

 

[justin case]

On 2/20/2020 at 10:40 AM, richard_smith237 said:

Other options may be to make a holiday booking in an alternative Schengen country and apply there (i.e. France). 

red flag, to try any other country than the person is living in !

 

good luck

[henry15]

If there is some doubt. its not the Belgian embassy who will granted a Visa. But they send the file to Belgian immigration office (DVZ) in  Brussels. They make a through investigation.

[mrmicbkktxl]

Actually if her boyfriend signed a Guarantee for her it is difficult not to get a Schengen Visa,

unless the Thailady told the embassy she plans to work or marry in Belgium.

[Russell17au]

Belgium is not the only country this is happening with, Australia is doing the same thing because there are many who have been granted these visa's who do the wrong thing and abuse the laws of the visa that is granted to them.

[khunPer]

On 2/20/2020 at 4:26 AM, Jip99 said:

The refusal letter cited not enough reasons to return to Thailand and (I think) insufficient funds for the trip.

 

The GF lives at home with her parents and daughter; she is financially supported by the Belgian. The dtro g family ties were highlighted and a character reference was provided by the village headman.

A Thai girl/lady would normally need to prove she has a job to return to, as she otherwise might stay in a Shengen country. Often proof on income in form of payment slips for 6 month, plus a bank account in own name with a fair amount of disposal money, is needed. It used to be 50k baht or more in the bank account, the minimum might be higher now.

 

Leaving a child behind is often "not enough reasons to return to Thailand". A child can legally be brought into Schengen later, which is also often the case.

 

Rules are supposed to be the same for all Schengen countries, however my experience is for Denmark.

[richard_smith237]

7 hours ago, justin case said:

On 2/20/2020 at 10:40 AM, richard_smith237 said:

Other options may be to make a holiday booking in an alternative Schengen country and apply there (i.e. France). 

red flag, to try any other country than the person is living in !

 

good luck

 

Not quite... We don’t live in France, Austria or Spain and my Wife has applied for Schengen Visas in all. 

You should apply in the country in which you plan on spending most time. 

[richard_smith237]

On 2/20/2020 at 6:55 PM, Jip99 said:

 

Unfortunately, there is no travel history.

 

It seems unfair to consider employment as a visa tactic when the Belgian boyfriend provides adequate support money for the girl and her child. 

 

If a subsequent application fails then I would probably suggest that on his next visit to Thailand they have a couple of days in Cambodia and a couple of days in Laos...

 

Balance of probability has nothing to do with fairness. 

 

Having sufficient funds or a guarantor for the trip is just one of many requirements to secure a visa.

 

The balance of probability of the Ops girlfriend returning to Thailand is a separate facet of the application and one which it seems has not met sufficiently met the requirements. 

[Dexxter]

On 2/20/2020 at 10:40 AM, richard_smith237 said:

Other options may be to make a holiday booking in an alternative Schengen country and apply there (i.e. France). 

Does your Girlfriend have any recent international travel history? i.e. Japan, Singapore etc and returned, any EU countries? this all helps.

I am Australian so not even an EU citizen, yet I had no trouble getting a Schengen visa for her through an agent in The Trendy Building in Bangkok. Only took a week for approval and she did not even have to go for an interview. The agent recommended we use France as our entry point because the French were more likely to provide a tourist visa. We had been together about 3 years at that time and she had travel history to Japan, Hong Kong, Cambodia and (importantly) Australia. No funds of her own and I was supporting her 100% for the holiday. No issues raised.

[Dexxter]

On 2/20/2020 at 6:55 PM, Jip99 said:

If a subsequent application fails then I would probably suggest that on his next visit to Thailand they have a couple of days in Cambodia and a couple of days in Laos...

Not sure Cambodia and Laos are helpful. I would be trying Japan and Hong Kong, both of which are visa free for Thai people, yet seen as "first world" countries where a Thai might want to overstay. Or South Korea perhaps. Visiting these places and not overstaying might show the Schengen people that she can be trusted. Just a thought.

[Dexxter]

3 hours ago, khunPer said:

A Thai girl/lady would normally need to prove she has a job to return to, as she otherwise might stay in a Shengen country. Often proof on income in form of payment slips for 6 month, plus a bank account in own name with a fair amount of disposal money, is needed. It used to be 50k baht or more in the bank account, the minimum might be higher now.

My Thai partner did not have a job or much money in the bank. She was a student at the time, Had no problem getting a visa. Previous travel history, including 3 months in Australia, probably helped her cause. I did state that I would support her financially during our holiday in Europe.

[KhaoYai]

If the lady in question had been working prior to the application, then that work would have gone some way to establishing ties to Thailand. However, in light of the refusal, getting a job and delaying a fresh application may well be seen as contrivance and make things worse unless she's prepared to wait a couple of years. Much better to re-apply and deal with the reasons for refusal.

 

What you need to do now is leave her personal circumstances much the same but prove ties to Thailand. This is not easy - having kids, land etc. do very little to convince an immigration officer that someone will return but they will add credence if there are other strong reasons.

 

There is a lot of advice on this issue but none of it is 'tablets of stone'.  If an immigration officer is simply not happy about an application but they cannot quantify there apprehension in legal terms - they often use 'reasons to return' to refuse a visa because its a subjective view - hard to prove and hard to deny.

 

Try to establish a settled homelife - lived in the same property for a number of years, dependent relative, etc. etc. If she has chidren and has taken an active part in that child's life (not worked in Bangkok/Pattaya for the last few years leaving the kid with family), try to show it.  Thai's just love taking photos, if there are any of events at the child's school showing the mother and child - this will help...................etc. etc.  Maybe you are getting my drift now? The point is to show a settled and active life in Thailand - one that she's happy with, close to her family........bla bla bla.

 

Its not at all easy once such a reason for refusal has been given but it can be done.  Find things that already exist - don't create new ones like her getting a job. Immigration officers are not stupid and will see through attemps to manufacture evidence and they could make matters worse.

[khunPer]

36 minutes ago, Dexxter said:

My Thai partner did not have a job or much money in the bank. She was a student at the time, Had no problem getting a visa. Previous travel history, including 3 months in Australia, probably helped her cause. I did state that I would support her financially during our holiday in Europe.

From your other posts it sounds like you were asking for a tourists visa, and with you not being EU citizen, it's slightly different, than an invitation from an EU citizen.

 

I had my girlfriend visiting Schengen together with me as tourists after I moved out from EU, and then it was another valuation, compared to the previous three times, where I was inviting her to stay in my house.

 

But previous travel history might well mean something, when it's an application for a tourist visa.

[Foexie]

14 hours ago, Autonuaq said:

Ticket of a return Airplane flight

 

It is a waste of money buying a ticket in advance (been a while now since last time i needed it but i think it's even is written on the papers of the Belgian embassy to only buy when visa is aproved).

 

Since when is a return ticket of a person accualy proof he/she will return???

You think all those refugees who wanna enter the UK will not do that and then trow away the ticket when they are in if it is that easy for "proving" any embassy they will return home because have a 2 way ticket?

[Jip99]

17 minutes ago, Foexie said:

 

It is a waste of money buying a ticket in advance (been a while now since last time i needed it but i think it's even is written on the papers of the Belgian embassy to only buy when visa is aproved).

 

Since when is a return ticket of a person accualy proof he/she will return???

You think all those refugees who wanna enter the UK will not do that and then trow away the ticket when they are in if it is that easy for "proving" any embassy they will return home because have a 2 way ticket?

Incorrect.

 

Flight booking (and hotel bookings) need to be submitted.

 

For UK visa applications they are not - and UKVI advise against booking a flight until the visa is granted. Not so for Schengen visas. 

[DJ54]

Suggest your friend contact the embassy and ask why it was refused. My Chinese wife was refused a visa 3 times to the US. 

 

I emailed and asked why and was told by citizens services here’s 

an appointment come and we will discuss. Called to the window and the officer had the paperwork we submitted. The invitation letter was on top. He said they had multiple runners that used this

style invitation letter. I got the style fromthe Internet. 

 

I to,d him I wrote the letter. He entered something in the system. 

Yold me to have her make an appointment and she’s approved.

 

i questioned why and he explained unlike China who tracks foreigners everywhere and yes it was everyone. US has open 

borders and the foreigner is not tracked. On top of that the province we lived in was notorious for runners...

 

anyway try it wont hurt,., and yes it’s a pain in the ass. To the nearest consulate was 1 hour flight...

 

[LivinLOS]

On 2/22/2020 at 2:15 AM, theoldgit said:

But you don't live in Belgium, it's always more difficult when a national wants to bring a Thai person to an EU, UK or US country for a holiday, rather than two foreigners travelling together. 

Yeah but its schengen, you dont have to apply to Belgium.. Book a holiday in germany then.. 

[theoldgit]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

Yeah but its schengen, you dont have to apply to Belgium.. Book a holiday in germany then.. 

You really need to read the whole thread.

This thread is about a Belgian who who is resident in Belgium and wants his Thai girlfriend to join him at his home for a holiday, different rules apply in that scenario, she cannot simply book a holiday in Germany and pop over the border.

[RedPill]

I have more the feeling the more money the Belgium guy has to sponsor that complete trip, including savings and assets in Belgium ... and the less she has ... not even a fixed job ... the more chances she would want to stay. 

 

I'e been through this before ... the question comes back to something like: If you have no job ... how can you go for a month holiday and why come back leaving that great sponsorship?

 

And if you have a job in Thailand to come back to, how do you get one month or 3 off for a holiday?

Most people in the West get max 2-3 weeks at a time.

 

It's that catch 22 ... unless she has her own assets and fixed income and she can explain why she get's 3 month off for a holiday.

 

Plus don't tell them that you met each other somewhere in a bar on holiday, if that has been the case ????

 

 

 

[Jip99]

37 minutes ago, RedPill said:

I have more the feeling the more money the Belgium guy has to sponsor that complete trip, including savings and assets in Belgium ... and the less she has ... not even a fixed job ... the more chances she would want to stay. 

 

I'e been through this before ... the question comes back to something like: If you have no job ... how can you go for a month holiday and why come back leaving that great sponsorship?

 

And if you have a job in Thailand to come back to, how do you get one month or 3 off for a holiday?

Most people in the West get max 2-3 weeks at a time.

 

It's that catch 22 ... unless she has her own assets and fixed income and she can explain why she get's 3 month off for a holiday.

 

Plus don't tell them that you met each other somewhere in a bar on holiday, if that has been the case ????

 

 

 

 

My missus has not earned a Penny in 13 years but she is financially secure and has had 14 visas.

 

In this case the applicant has no need to work because she is supported by her boyfriend  -  who has also provided the usual 'Pledge" from his local town hall.

 

Where they met is irrelevant....... ECO's are not stupid..... if the criteria is met then a visa should be approved.

[RedPill]

9 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

My missus has not earned a Penny in 13 years but she is financially secure and has had 14 visas.

 

In this case the applicant has no need to work because she is supported by her boyfriend  -  who has also provided the usual 'Pledge" from his local town hall.

 

Where they met is irrelevant....... ECO's are not stupid..... if the criteria is met then a visa should be approved.

Don't ask on a forum, if you are not open to additional feedback about experiences others had before ????

 

You know the process to get a Thai over is a rabbit hole and the outcome different to many, and the reasons given very vague when denied.

 

Besides, up to your Belgium friend. If Thailand is such a great nation, let their citizens just book a ticket to Paris to see the Eifeltower for a 3 week holiday. From there, she can travel to Belgium and see him. 

 

Why does a loved up guy has to fill in 2000 sheets of papers, put his complete private / financial status on the table.

 

Or just marry the girl ... makes it easier ????

  

 

[bkk6060]

I think most westernized countries are denying these now.

There are plenty of Thai girls throughout the world who have family and kids here, who do not come back.

Sending the money to support them is more important then being here.

 

A Tourist Visa to the US for a Thai gf is a 99.9% No.

Maybe if she is over 50 years old.

Otherwise, they are not giving them out.

 

And, having a BF or a BF guarantee letter is an automatic denial now.  They do not want to see it.

They also check social media.  So, Facebook accounts are open for inspection.