until when was Isaan part of Laos?

[BananaBandit]

I've asked several people face-to-face and received conflicting answers.

 

I've looked online, and the info seems a bit complex. 

 

My current "understanding" is that:

 

Isaan was part of the Lao kingdoms of Vientiane and Champasak for several centuries. 

 

When the Siamese defeated Vientiane kingdom in 1827, Isaan became a political no-man's land as far as who "owned" it. 

 

At some point around 1900, Isaan became formally recognized as part of Siam/Thailand. 

 

...Do I have things remotely correct here ??

 

Was there a particular year when Isaan officially became part of Siam/Thailand ?

[allane]

Isarn is a rather large area. I would be surprised if the whole thing was conquered or annexed, with no reversals, in one go.

[UbonThani]

Conquered in 2007 by me. Just leftovers remain

 

[DannyCarlton]

If you ask my wife, she'll tell you that Nong Khai still is. Refers to herself as Lao Issan not Thai Issan.

[transam]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Isan

[KhunBENQ]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Isan

Too fast!

I am not through with reading and history is far from my strong points.

Found "late 18th century", "1779" when Isan was separated from Lao Kingdom of Lan Xang.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lan_Xang

I better stop here

[DannyCarlton]

21 minutes ago, KhunBENQ said:

Too fast!

I am not through with reading and history is far from my strong points.

Found "late 18th century", "1779" when Isan was separated from Lao Kingdom of Lan Xang.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lan_Xang

I better stop here

Yep, Nong Khai fell to the Siamese in 1779. The last time it had independance from what we now know as Thailand. Had been part of the Lan Xang empire for 400 years before that.

[Toosetinmyways]

As you said yourself it is complicated. Before Siam was unified it was made up of various kingdoms. My copy of a map for 1540 shows the kingdom of Lan Na and the kingdom of Ayudhya which is basically modern day Thailand minus the north east. The north east border of Ayudhya ran from Nakon Nayok to Phitsanulok. The land to the east is made up of a Laotian kingdom called Lan Sang which ran to the border with Vietnam. Funnily the border bypassed Nakon Ratchasima which stayed in Ayudhya kingdom

A map of 1400 shows the kingdom of Sukhothai all the way past Vientiane.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Toosetinmyways

[Toosetinmyways]

[Toosetinmyways]

TVF wont let me edit. The above map is 1806.

[DJ54]

So do we call people with Thai-Laos hertitage farang..,Technically Yes is my guess...

[puchooay]

On 2/27/2020 at 3:54 AM, DJ54 said:

So do we call people with Thai-Laos hertitage farang..,Technically Yes is my guess...

Without wishing to start an avalanche of comments about the word "Farang" and it's uses. the answer to your question is NO. "Farang" refers to White European, although nowdays just generally white foreigner.

[AjarnMartin]

17 hours ago, puchooay said:

Without wishing to start an avalanche of comments about the word "Farang" and it's uses. the answer to your question is NO. "Farang" refers to White European, although nowdays just generally white foreigner.

A small avalanche... as I was led to believe, ‘falang’ actually comes from the history of French Indo China when the French (falang set?) colonised the region of SE Asia?. Since then, all white visitors are so named? Maybe this is too simplistic but it sounds reasonable? Of course, Thailand doesn’t recognise ANY colonisation, for whatever reason (Japanese in WWII?).

[mfd101]

And not to mention the bottom 1/3 which is mostly Khmer, with the borders/boundaries moving back & forth MANY times over the last 1000 years. And then there's the Vietnamese, numerous in Cambodia (not for no reason) ...

[ChipButty]

On 2/26/2020 at 1:34 PM, UbonThani said:

Conquered in 2007 by me. Just leftovers remain

 

Sloppy seconds you mean?

[Ventenio]

Of course it depends WHO drew the map?  right?

 

It's a good thing we are all expert Thai historians.   

 

The OFFICIAL transfer date was September 23, 1724 at 5:38 a.m. and I know this because I stayed at a Holiday Express last night.  

[DannyCarlton]

13 minutes ago, AjarnMartin said:

A small avalanche... as I was led to believe, ‘falang’ actually comes from the history of French Indo China when the French (falang set?) colonised the region of SE Asia?. Since then, all white visitors are so named? Maybe this is too simplistic but it sounds reasonable? Of course, Thailand doesn’t recognise ANY colonisation, for whatever reason (Japanese in WWII?).

One, but not the most accepted theory. Usage appears to be much older than that.

[elgenon]

And the bottom of Thailand was part of Malaysia? 

[Stevemercer]

No doubt China will one day pull out an ancient map showing old Siam to be part of China and claim it all!

[Tony45]

Try this video for size......

 

 

[Scouse123]

 

[khunPer]

On 2/26/2020 at 5:11 AM, BananaBandit said:

When the Siamese defeated Vientiane kingdom in 1827, Isaan became a political no-man's land as far as who "owned" it. 

 

At some point around 1900, Isaan became formally recognized as part of Siam/Thailand. 

 

...Do I have things remotely correct here ??

I've always hear the opposite that part of the north-east was lost to France around 1900 and today part of Lao.

 

I remember to have read in "A History of Thailand" (Cambridge University Press) that the Lao and the Kher population in Isaan was moved there by a Thai King to grow rice on the almost uninhabited Isaan plateau, and to have workers and soldiers closer to Bangkok. The king might well have been Rama IV, Mongkut, (1851-1868) as he also was the one that physically tried to move Anchor Wat to Bangkok, but I cannot remember, need to find it in the printed book and that might take time, so I don't.

 

Mid 18th century a part of eastern Isaan was an "inner Mueang", including the Sam Reap area and ancient Anchor that was rediscovered at that time. An area not that different from today's Laos was a tributarie, whilst most of today's Isaan was not included in the administration as either mueang or tributarie.

 

Here are some maps of the kingdoms back from Sukhotai Kingdom until Chakri dynasty and Bangkok-era, including what was lost to France...

 

13th Century...

 

Around 1540...

 

1750 where almost all of Isaan where divided by two Laos-kingdoms...

 

Siam after the Franco-Siamese War, the blue areas – about today's Cambodia and Laos – were lost by Siam to France between 1867 and 1907...

[Hank Gunn]

3 hours ago, mfd101 said:

And not to mention the bottom 1/3 which is mostly Khmer, with the borders/boundaries moving back & forth MANY times over the last 1000 years. And then there's the Vietnamese, numerous in Cambodia (not for no reason) ...

So many people make the mistake of assuming that all of Isaan is a monolithic region linguistically and culturally, that after you have come up onto the Korat Plateau that everyone speaks "Lao Isaan" or some derivative dialect of such. If anyone cared to actually look at a map, they'd see that the lower section of Isaan is bordered by Cambodia to the south, with many locals (including the powerful Chidchob family of Newin Chidchob fame, who own the Buriram United football club and the Thunder Castle complex that includes the football stadium and MotoGP hosting racetrack) speaking a unique dialect of Khmer called Khmer Surin. The cities of Buriram and Surin, both capitals of their respective provinces, are each less than 100km from the Cambodian border.

[NanLaew]

On 2/26/2020 at 2:18 PM, DannyCarlton said:

Yep, Nong Khai fell to the Siamese in 1779. The last time it had independance from what we now know as Thailand. Had been part of the Lan Xang empire for 400 years before that.

Striking chronological coincidences (almost) with the Scots last, true throw at independence when the Jacobite Rebellion was finally quashed in 1745. As a disenfranchised highlander, maybe that's why I have such an affinity for the Thai north east. Or maybe it's just Mrs NL's somtam.

 

...or Mrs NL.

[DannyCarlton]

1 minute ago, NanLaew said:

Striking chronological coincidences (almost) with the Scots last, true throw at independence when the Jacobite Rebellion was finally quashed in 1745. As a disenfranchised highlander, maybe that's why I have such an affinity for the Thai north east. Or maybe it's just Mrs NL's somtam.

 

...or Mrs NL.

Maybe not quite the last if wee Nicola has her way.

[NanLaew]

Just now, DannyCarlton said:

Maybe not quite the last if wee Nicola has her way.

I did say the Scots last, true throw. The Scots lacked the numbers against a superior armed force in that regard. The clock is ticking on Sturgeons flawed independence dream and I am doing everything in my power to speed that clock up. But we digress...

 

Great thread BTW, especially those maps-through-the-ages by @khunPer

[Lacessit]

On 2/26/2020 at 1:34 PM, UbonThani said:

Conquered in 2007 by me. Just leftovers remain

 

You need to publish some photos of what you have conquered before we will believe you.

[emptypockets]

10 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You need to publish some photos of what you have conquered before we will believe you.

  

Not one of his prouder moments.

[NanLaew]

Just now, emptypockets said:

  

Not one of his prouder moments.

Does it matter? She looks happy.

[emptypockets]

1 minute ago, NanLaew said:

Does it matter? She looks happy.

500 baht in the purse, course she happy.