Popular Post rkidlad Posted February 28, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, dbrenn said: Poor things. They'll be tolerated for a while, then spaded under like so many before them. I do hope that they go home before they get shot. Keeping thinks as they are is a much better option than pretending that Thailand can be like the west. It needs a strong and authoritarian government to remain peaceful, as we've seen in recent years. I'm glad that the Thai government understands this, and ignores preaching from the meddling west - who pretend that they are democracies while giving their electorate nothing to choose from. Thailand needs a strong authoritarian government? Ah, the bigotry of low expectations towards Asians. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbrenn Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, rkidlad said: Thailand needs a strong authoritarian government? Ah, the bigotry of low expectations towards Asians. Ah, the bigotry of lecturing westerners who despise any system of government that differs from the one that they (pretend to) have. Thailand doesn't want to be the next Libya, so rightly tells the preaching west to mind its own dodgy business. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarFlungFalang Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 8 minutes ago, rkidlad said: I disagree. Look at the young guy who got arrested and held in custody for breaking the 'pizza law'. There was a huge uproar online, people made a 'go fund me' page and now he's out on bail. That would never have happened a few years ago. Public pressure forced the government's hand. I'm definitely on their side and do wish them success in their endeavours and often entertain the idea of standing along side them but as Mel Gibson's character said in The Patriot" I have a family and can't afford the luxury of principles ".We shall see what happens in good time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post rkidlad Posted February 28, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 28, 2020 1 minute ago, dbrenn said: Ah, the bigotry of lecturing westerners who despise any system of government that differs from the one that they (pretend to) have. Thailand doesn't want to be the next Libya, so rightly tells the preaching west to mind its own dodgy business. Thailand tells the west what? Who is Thailand in this context - the 1%? Why does it pretend to be a democracy when it can just do away with the facade and just be an autocracy? Why the big dog and pony show? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbrenn Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, rkidlad said: Thailand tells the west what? Who is Thailand in this context - the 1%? Why does it pretend to be a democracy when it can just do away with the facade and just be an autocracy? Why the big dog and pony show? The west says it's a democracy, but is it one really? When we vote, what are the different ideologies that are available to us to choose from? Think about it. I like the present government in Thailand because it's conservative and maintains peace. That's why I voted for them and that's why they won the last general election. You should support their right to govern, believing in democracy as you claim to do - or do you only believe in it when your side wins elections? Edited February 28, 2020 by dbrenn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkidlad Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, dbrenn said: The west says it's a democracy, but is it one really? When we vote, what are the different ideologies that are available to us to choose from? Think about it. I like the present government in Thailand because it's conservative and maintains peace. That's why I voted for them and that's why they won the last general election. You should support their right to govern, believing in democracy as you claim to do - or do you only believe in it when your side wins elections? It isn't a democracy here, no. But you're confusing me. You said in earlier posts this it's a democracy and Prayut was voted in fairly. Now in later posts you're saying that Thailand doesn't need a democracy; it needs a strong authoritarian leader. Which one is it? Oh, please stop talking about the West and Western values. We are talking about student protesters who want democracy in their country. You keep digressing and strawmanning. Edited February 28, 2020 by rkidlad 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGW Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 10 minutes ago, dbrenn said: I like the present government in Thailand because it's conservative and maintains peace. Your easily pleased, "conservative" or ultra conservative? sure it maintains "peace" protecting the very few that qualify to be part of the "ruling class" the unwashed majority masses are damned in the process though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigInBangkok Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 9 minutes ago, dbrenn said: The west says it's a democracy, but is it one really? When we vote, what are the different ideologies that are available to us to choose from? Think about it. I don't agree with all your comments but I do agree with this. The way I see it is we get to choose from one group of lying shady sh!tbags or another group of lying shady sh!tbags. As for the students good for them... but I do wonder how many there actually believe in what they are protesting about and how many are there because their mates are there...I guess time will tell 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbrenn Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 1 minute ago, rkidlad said: It isn't a democracy here, no. But you're confusing me. You said in earlier posts this it's a democracy and Prayut was voted in fairly. Now in later posts you're saying that Thailand doesn't need a democracy; it needs a strong authoritarian leader. Which one is it? Oh, please stop talking about the West and Western values. We are talking about student protesters who want democracy in their country. You keep digressing and strawmanning. Thailand has a strong authoritarian government that was elected. The best of both worlds. I'm not actually a strong believer in democracy as the ideal system of government, because it is unsustainable, breeds dissatisfaction, and falls over into chaos, fads and tyranny. At least in Thailand we have an authoritarian who is relatively benign, and isn't waging war in the way that the west does (in the name of democracy, of course). And why should I stop talking about the west, when you're always comparing Thailand to a system of government that you believe to be perfect, but is deeply flawed and has been hijacked by vested interests? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post rkidlad Posted February 28, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 28, 2020 Just now, dbrenn said: Thailand has a strong authoritarian government that was elected. The best of both worlds. I'm not actually a strong believer in democracy as the ideal system of government, because it is unsustainable, breeds dissatisfaction, and falls over into chaos, fads and tyranny. At least in Thailand we have an authoritarian who is relatively benign, and isn't waging war in the way that the west does (in the name of democracy, of course). And why should I stop talking about the west, when you're always comparing Thailand to a system of government that you believe to be perfect, but is deeply flawed and has been hijacked by vested interests? I never once said the West's style of governing is perfect. Please don't make stuff up or misrepresent my words. I'm first and foremost a huge advocate of free speech. Only people who have something to hide fear free speech. I want to talk about the topic of this thread and this thread only. The young (and old) are very angry. They're protesting, as is their right. The elections here were seriously flawed. The seat allocation system was made up after the fact. The junta led PPRP party had a huge head start and public funds. They took ages to count the votes (should be done in no more than 48 hours). They refused outside moderators to observe (there were no elections since 2011 so it was a perfect opportunity to show transparency). The list goes on and on.... Do you really think in a developing country where there is one of the biggest wealth inequalities that the system is working? Working for who exactly? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petedk Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 I have seen my students get more and more politically active over the last 18 months. I started a project about the future a few weeks ago before all these demonstrations. The idea was to concentrate on among other things technological improvements, events that could "go down in history" and so on. This is something I have been doing for years, but this year the results were very different. The students referred to the movie "Les Miserables" and that is the future of Thailand. Actually I decided to step in and stop that line of talk and concentrate on technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTuner Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 28 minutes ago, dbrenn said: The west says it's a democracy, but is it one really? No, but they are closer to it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbrenn Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, DrTuner said: No, but they are closer to it. In what way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post scorecard Posted February 28, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, petedk said: I have seen my students get more and more politically active over the last 18 months. I started a project about the future a few weeks ago before all these demonstrations. The idea was to concentrate on among other things technological improvements, events that could "go down in history" and so on. This is something I have been doing for years, but this year the results were very different. The students referred to the movie "Les Miserables" and that is the future of Thailand. Actually I decided to step in and stop that line of talk and concentrate on technology. Agree, in the last couple of years I found some uni students then many students discussing politics and the current situation. It surprised me how knowledgeable some were and how quickly others developed a good level of knowledge. Now my M4 granddaughter is discussing democracy at home and I'm pleasantly surprised what she knows and her good depth of understanding. I asked her if her teachers (60%Thai / 40% farang) have been talking to the students on this. She quickly said 'no, we don't want to listen to our teachers they don't explain the principles they only talk about 'it's good to have peace on the streets'. All very telling. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkidlad Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, dbrenn said: In what way? More freedom of speech just off the top of my head. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbrenn Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, scorecard said: Which is why I would like to see more action to really share the wealth. The difficulty with that is the only version of socialism available for us to vote for in our 'democracies' is a glossy incarnation of Trotskyism - a globalist form of Marxism that believes in a borderless utopian world in which everyone can freely move around and share wealth. Add to that the modern socialist doctrine of identity, rather than class, politics. It's not difficult to understand why the working classes are so downtrodden in our 'democracies' with no party available to them that represents their interests. It's a far cry from the Leninist-Stalinist version of Marxism that believed in a strong nation state with a vanguard party representing the proletariat (not that it did in practice of course - greed got in the way). It's also the reason why Trotsky himself was banished from the USSR and eventually assassinated. Sharing your wealth with the whole world may make you a lot poorer. Is that what you really want? Thailand has struck the right balance, when you think about it. Edited February 28, 2020 by dbrenn 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTuner Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 19 minutes ago, dbrenn said: In what way? There's actually a chance to get rid of the worst representatives every few years. Unlike self-appointed senate, f.ex. Direct democracy would be possible already, but it requires career suicide by current politicians. It's never been truly tried in it's purest form: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbrenn Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 7 minutes ago, DrTuner said: There's actually a chance to get rid of the worst representatives every few years. Unlike self-appointed senate, f.ex. Direct democracy would be possible already, but it requires career suicide by current politicians. It's never been truly tried in it's purest form: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy Direct democracy - everything is decided by referenda. It worked in ancient Greece, but nowadays people are too busy to participate in it. Hence parliamentary democracy was favoured in which we choose people to represent us. Ideally, these people should have high moral and ethical standards, quite unlike what we're seeing now, all over the world.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTuner Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 10 minutes ago, dbrenn said: Direct democracy - everything is decided by referenda. It worked in ancient Greece, but nowadays people are too busy to participate in it. Hence parliamentary democracy was favoured in which we choose people to represent us. Ideally, these people should have high moral and ethical standards, quite unlike what we're seeing now, all over the world.... Yes, people are too lazy. They get the government they deserve in return for that - an oppressive one. There's a price to be paid for liberty, if you're not willing to pay for it, prepare to be enslaved. It all starts with education, which again in authoritarian systems will be quickly skewed to support the tyrants. The only way out of it, once fallen into the trap, is bloodshed. The French revolution was quite something. It's results are still well visible: https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index-new Freedom is not a right. It is the result of vigilance. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbrenn Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 14 minutes ago, DrTuner said: Yes, people are too lazy. They get the government they deserve in return for that - an oppressive one. There's a price to be paid for liberty, if you're not willing to pay for it, prepare to be enslaved. It all starts with education, which again in authoritarian systems will be quickly skewed to support the tyrants. The only way out of it, once fallen into the trap, is bloodshed. The French revolution was quite something. It's results are still well visible: https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index-new Freedom is not a right. It is the result of vigilance. I'm always a bit suspicious of these freedom indices. How free are we really? We have no competing ideologies to choose from at elections. Orwellian political correctness dictates what we can and can't say. Unemployment as a penalty for thought crime has replaced the gulag, but is just as onerous. The state has replaced the family and religion. The police have abandoned us, preferring to patrol Twitter than our streets. Our institutions have been hollowed out. I could go on. It makes me laugh to see all the people here who believe that they come from a free society, when they quite clearly don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DrTuner Posted February 28, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 28, 2020 6 minutes ago, dbrenn said: We have no competing ideologies to choose from at elections. Orwellian political correctness dictates what we can and can't say. Unemployment as a penalty for thought crime has replaced the gulag, but is just as onerous. The state has replaced the family and religion. The police have abandoned us, preferring to patrol Twitter than our streets. Our institutions have been hollowed out. I could go on. What you are describing is the move towards authoritarianism instead of libertarianism. If you check out CATOs research, you will notice that trend there as well. Most of the world is moving in the wrong direction. I pin this on young people having been dumbed down by the useless social media and big wars becoming a memory instead of an acute reminder of what happens when authoritarianism is given the reigns. People refuse learn from history and are doomed to repeat the same mistakes all over again, with the same results. Thailand is a prime example of the vicious circle. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigInBangkok Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 7 minutes ago, DrTuner said: What you are describing is the move towards authoritarianism instead of libertarianism. If you check out CATOs research, you will notice that trend there as well. Most of the world is moving in the wrong direction. I pin this on young people having been dumbed down by the useless social media and big wars becoming a memory instead of an acute reminder of what happens when authoritarianism is given the reigns. People refuse learn from history and are doomed to repeat the same mistakes all over again, with the same results. Thailand is a prime example of the vicious circle. While I agree with you about useless social media, I think most of the apathy from the young comes from the people who they can vote for have zero connection to youth, so why should they care. I've personally never had an interest in politics because none of them represented me or what I believe in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarFlungFalang Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 2 hours ago, CraigInBangkok said: I don't agree with all your comments but I do agree with this. The way I see it is we get to choose from one group of lying shady sh!tbags or another group of lying shady sh!tbags. As for the students good for them... but I do wonder how many there actually believe in what they are protesting about and how many are there because their mates are there...I guess time will tell Unfortunately for me the NORMAL (the legalise pot) party wasn't around by the time I was old enough to vote so I never voted as no other party represented my values. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigInBangkok Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 Just now, FarFlungFalang said: Unfortunately for me the NORMAL (the legalise pot) party wasn't around by the time I was old enough to vote so I never voted as no other party represented my values. I'm with you mate! Still waiting for christmas day, but we will get told off if we continue...you know what theyre like ???? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarFlungFalang Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 17 minutes ago, CraigInBangkok said: I'm with you mate! Still waiting for christmas day, but we will get told off if we continue...you know what theyre like ???? Well lets get back on track then.If the Administration were to legalise weed for recreational use and all these recalcitrant students and the generals (I've heard Prayuth scored a bottle of cannabis) could bash up a brew and discuss the situation in a calm and more relaxed atmosphere! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigInBangkok Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 Just now, FarFlungFalang said: Well lets get back on track then.If the Administration were to legalise weed for recreational use and all these recalcitrant students and the generals (I've heard Prayuth scored a bottle of cannabis) could bash up a brew and discuss the situation in a calm and more relaxed atmosphere! Can you imagine his sh!t eating grin after a couple of hits ...its big enough already or maybe that is why he is so calm at the moment. Oh yeah ...GO STUDENTS! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billd766 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 4 hours ago, CGW said: I agree with that, in the past their have been instances where there has been "insubordination" in fact at one time the Police and sections of the military were at loggerheads, that friction appears to have disappeared, deals have been done I guess, people replaced with those with more 'consistent" views! There was a time, a few decades ago during the Vietnam war of fragging. https://www.google.co.uk/search?sxsrf=ALeKk00r_hVVtqkzTGTO8H1iwqisF9eWsg%3A1582887995149&source=hp&ei=O_RYXqK3Btm89QOv6avgAg&q=fragging&oq=frragging&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i13l10.1792.4445..8160...1.0..0.120.877.6j3......0....1..gws-wiz.......35i39j0i131j0j0i67j35i305i39j0i10i67j0i10j0i13i10.YAoJU9yiw7o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billd766 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 4 hours ago, rkidlad said: Thailand needs a strong authoritarian government? Ah, the bigotry of low expectations towards Asians. 4 hours ago, rkidlad said: Thailand tells the west what? Who is Thailand in this context - the 1%? Why does it pretend to be a democracy when it can just do away with the facade and just be an autocracy? Why the big dog and pony show? 3 hours ago, rkidlad said: It isn't a democracy here, no. But you're confusing me. You said in earlier posts this it's a democracy and Prayut was voted in fairly. Now in later posts you're saying that Thailand doesn't need a democracy; it needs a strong authoritarian leader. Which one is it? Oh, please stop talking about the West and Western values. We are talking about student protesters who want democracy in their country. You keep digressing and strawmanning. He is a troll and ought to be ignored and not fed. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonhia Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 At last! People deserve better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarFlungFalang Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, CraigInBangkok said: Can you imagine his sh!t eating grin after a couple of hits ...its big enough already or maybe that is why he is so calm at the moment. Oh yeah ...GO STUDENTS! You mean like this sh!t eating grin? Time to smoke the peace pipe Prayuth! Edited February 28, 2020 by FarFlungFalang 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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