How long does probate take here?

[thainet]

20 minutes ago, saengd said:

When you open an account the Terms and Conditions require you to notify the bank if an account holder dies. If a joint account holder drains the account when the other account holder has died that is illegal. The bank is required to abide by the ruling of the Probate Court alone, the bank will not know if a will that is presented to them is the latest will or if taxes are owed by the deceased.

 

My understanding is that the Probate Court requires 90 days, I also understand banks can take a further 90 days before final settlement is made.

""If a joint account holder drains the account when the other account holder has died that is illegal"".

 

The above is actually not correct (although before I also thought it was).

All my Fixed Deposit accounts have myself and wife on the accounts with 'either/or signatures'. Opening a new Fixed Deposit account last week at Bangkok Bank, the Manager informed that the other signatory (if one has died) has full authority to take the proceeds when the deposit has expired, or re deposit into an account in their name only, or transfer into their savings account.

 

After previous posts on this (or another) thread my savings account now has my wife as a silent POA on the account. By silent I mean only my name appears on the front page of the book (for IMM purposes). The Manager also explained that she has the right to use the money in the account (after my demise) in anyway she wants, but she cannot close the account as its primarily in my name But she can take it down to a few baht).

 

Anyway this is my experience and hope it helps some people.  cheers T.

 

[saengd]

4 minutes ago, thainet said:

""If a joint account holder drains the account when the other account holder has died that is illegal"".

 

The above is actually not correct (although before I also thought it was).

All my Fixed Deposit accounts have myself and wife on the accounts with 'either/or signatures'. Opening a new Fixed Deposit account last week at Bangkok Bank, the Manager informed that the other signatory (if one has died) has full authority to take the proceeds when the deposit has expired, or re deposit into an account in their name only, or transfer into their savings account.

 

After previous posts on this (or another) thread my savings account now has my wife as a silent POA on the account. By silent I mean only my name appears on the front page of the book (for IMM purposes). The Manager also explained that she has the right to use the money in the account (after my demise) in anyway she wants, but she cannot close the account as its primarily in my name But she can take it down to a few baht).

 

Anyway this is my experience and hope it helps some people.  cheers T.

 

You are one of the very few people on this forum who know anything about "or" accounts which I full agree are not subject to closure when one party dies, my wife an I have an investment account that is written as "or", for this very purpose. The only downside to having an "or" account that is fixed and used for Immigration purposes is that Immi. requires the name is in the sole name of the visa holder and they perceive "or" accounts to be joint.

 

BTW a POA dies when you die so your wifes actions would be illegal.

Edited February 29, 2020 by saengd

[thainet]

1 hour ago, saengd said:

You are one of the very few people on this forum who know anything about "or" accounts which I full agree are not subject to closure when one party dies, my wife an I have an investment account that is written as "or", for this very purpose. The only downside to having an "or" account that is fixed and used for Immigration purposes is that Immi. requires the name is in the sole name of the visa holder and they perceive "or" accounts to be joint.

 

BTW a POA dies when you die so your wifes actions would be illegal.

""BTW a POA dies when you die so your wifes actions would be illegal"".

 

Sorry have to differ again. I probably used the wrong word here (ie: POA) as nothing is signed or notarised like a normal Power of Attorney. The information is input into the bank system (for my savings Acct) and she only has to produce the Bankbook/Death Certificate to start using the money. The good thing about this way, is the Bank do not require any probate papers from the court (which could take many months), as by signing lots of forms and the input into the system, it acts as their own probate, if that makes sense.

 

Just as a point here, I am Bangkok Bank Platinum Exclusive member, and my banking is taken care of by senior bank officials, so I deem the information I receive as reliable.

But once again this is my own experience which may help others, but of course everyone's circumstances differ, so if people find my information valuable or useful then they can make their own inquiries for their own needs. Thanks T.

[emptypockets]

On 2/28/2020 at 7:10 PM, Odysseus123 said:

They make a great deal of sense, thank you.

 

Bar girl deal.huh?Well that's senselessness...

 

The poster has responded,is an intelligent man, and no doubt will get on doing whatever he is doing.

 

I made it a Golden Rule in Thailand to NEVER listen to another expat-under any circumstances whatsoever.

Seems to be a little pointless in your posting on a forum does it not?

[emptypockets]

16 hours ago, Langsuan Man said:

Yes

Why?

[observer90210]

with absolutely no hint to the present issue, always try to be worth more when alive, then when dead....

[saengd]

4 hours ago, thainet said:

""BTW a POA dies when you die so your wifes actions would be illegal"".

 

Sorry have to differ again. I probably used the wrong word here (ie: POA) as nothing is signed or notarised like a normal Power of Attorney. The information is input into the bank system (for my savings Acct) and she only has to produce the Bankbook/Death Certificate to start using the money. The good thing about this way, is the Bank do not require any probate papers from the court (which could take many months), as by signing lots of forms and the input into the system, it acts as their own probate, if that makes sense.

 

Just as a point here, I am Bangkok Bank Platinum Exclusive member, and my banking is taken care of by senior bank officials, so I deem the information I receive as reliable.

But once again this is my own experience which may help others, but of course everyone's circumstances differ, so if people find my information valuable or useful then they can make their own inquiries for their own needs. Thanks T.

I'd be interested to know what you are referring to here if it is not a POA.

 

The fact you are a preferred customer makes little difference to the quality of advice received, I also am preferred at UOB and have a dedicated account manager, I find she can be just as wrong as often as anyone else in the industry here.

 

[ChaiyaTH]

Just keep enough cash around to bridge the time it takes to get the will paid out / settled and problem solved.

Edited February 29, 2020 by ChaiyaTH

[cnx355]

On 9/3/2019 at 3:45 PM, justin case said:

you must love the comment to use thai language

 

for MOST FARANGS that cannot not

 

type info blindly ?

 

On 12/20/2019 at 5:13 PM, Peterw42 said:

Op, it would appear you have the sticker in the tube the wrong way around and all the details cannot be read. The sticker goes in the tube so the numbers and other information go from top to bottom, then all the year, month and model information can be seen. The way you have the sticker in the tube barely 2 digits can be seen and none of the other information.

 

 

On 12/24/2019 at 9:43 AM, Somtamnication said:

The white strip is there for a reason. 

 

On 2/28/2020 at 7:10 PM, UbonThani said:

Easy fix - move $ to her account now.

 

Unless you dont trust her. If you dont trust her she shouldnt be in the will.

 

 

As you may know the 800,000 THB has to be in an account with his own name to get an extension at Immigration. The will will take care of that and also if he owns a vehicle.

[Lacessit]

9 hours ago, thainet said:

""BTW a POA dies when you die so your wifes actions would be illegal"".

 

Sorry have to differ again. I probably used the wrong word here (ie: POA) as nothing is signed or notarised like a normal Power of Attorney. The information is input into the bank system (for my savings Acct) and she only has to produce the Bankbook/Death Certificate to start using the money. The good thing about this way, is the Bank do not require any probate papers from the court (which could take many months), as by signing lots of forms and the input into the system, it acts as their own probate, if that makes sense.

 

Just as a point here, I am Bangkok Bank Platinum Exclusive member, and my banking is taken care of by senior bank officials, so I deem the information I receive as reliable.

But once again this is my own experience which may help others, but of course everyone's circumstances differ, so if people find my information valuable or useful then they can make their own inquiries for their own needs. Thanks T.

Interesting posts, thanks. I'll investigate further, could be just the arrangement I am seeking to tide her over while the 800K and other assets work their way through probate.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Lacessit

[saengd]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

Interesting posts, thanks. I'll investigate further, could be just the arrangement I am seeking to tide her over while the 800K and other assets work their way through probate.

I'm also curious to understand what that posters refers to. I've had these discussions with UOB several times and there's nothing available that meets what that poster has described, apart from a POA which would be illegal to use after death. For a bank to preempt Probate Court and release funds to a spouse would seem unlikely because the bank wouldn't know is the will they had was the latest version nor if taxes were due from the state. I'll be grateful if you'll tell us if you find out anything further.

[1FinickyOne]

If you make sure that your wife has enough in her name for an extended probate, then she will be fine... I have had no problem with putting a pretty fair % of my earnings/money in my wife's name... she has proven herself a good farmland investor and bank account saver... 

 

and so, she has more than enough to survive even a prolonged probate...

 

problem solved but good for you to be considerate enough to worry for her future.. 

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, saengd said:

I'm also curious to understand what that posters refers to. I've had these discussions with UOB several times and there's nothing available that meets what that poster has described, apart from a POA which would be illegal to use after death. For a bank to preempt Probate Court and release funds to a spouse would seem unlikely because the bank wouldn't know is the will they had was the latest version nor if taxes were due from the state. I'll be grateful if you'll tell us if you find out anything further.

I think the arrangement one makes with any bank is independent of any will. As I understand it, the account is structured so the beneficiary can only draw on it by producing the bankbook and a death certificate. There is no mention of producing a will.

Of course, if someone changed their will, I'd assume they would also takes steps to either annul the arrangement, or close the account.

[Lacessit]

3 minutes ago, kenk24 said:

If you make sure that your wife has enough in her name for an extended probate, then she will be fine... I have had no problem with putting a pretty fair % of my earnings/money in my wife's name... she has proven herself a good farmland investor and bank account saver... 

 

and so, she has more than enough to survive even a prolonged probate...

 

problem solved but good for you to be considerate enough to worry for her future.. 

Thanks. I am 24 years older than her, so it's quite unlikely I'll outlive her. I do believe in what is fair and equitable.

[saengd]

6 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I think the arrangement one makes with any bank is independent of any will. As I understand it, the account is structured so the beneficiary can only draw on it by producing the bankbook and a death certificate. There is no mention of producing a will.

Of course, if someone changed their will, I'd assume they would also takes steps to either annul the arrangement, or close the account.

I can't see how it can be independent of the will. If the account owner dies the contents of that persons account then becomes the property of,,,,the Probate Court (?) I guess until such time as it is reassigned to the executor or the beneficiary. At no time does the bank own those funds and the account holder certainly doesn't. So for the bank to reach an agreement with the account holder regarding what happens to his funds after he dies, independent of what the Probate Court or the tax people might say, seems odd at best. Even if the bank has sight of the latest will that is not concrete proof unless it is known to be the final version. What if the account holder planned to leave his assets to another person but chose not to tell his wife, in that event the bank is on hook.

[Lacessit]

1 minute ago, saengd said:

I can't see how it can be independent of the will. If the account owner dies the contents of that persons account then becomes the property of,,,,the Probate Court (?) I guess until such time as it is reassigned to the executor or the beneficiary. At no time does the bank own those funds and the account holder certainly doesn't. So for the bank to reach an agreement with the account holder regarding what happens to his funds after he dies, independent of what the Probate Court or the tax people might say, seems odd at best. Even if the bank has sight of the latest will that is not concrete proof unless it is known to be the final version. What if the account holder planned to leave his assets to another person but chose not to tell his wife, in that event the bank is on hook.

You may be right. I'll check it out further; however, because I'm currently moving I will take some time to get an answer.

[1FinickyOne]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

Thanks. I am 24 years older than her, so it's quite unlikely I'll outlive her. I do believe in what is fair and equitable.

I am sure my wife feels more secure having money in her name now - as opposed to a promise of money in the future... after probate... if...

[JimGant]

On 2/29/2020 at 8:33 PM, thainet said:

After previous posts on this (or another) thread my savings account now has my wife as a silent POA on the account. By silent I mean only my name appears on the front page of the book (for IMM purposes). The Manager also explained that she has the right to use the money in the account (after my demise) in anyway she wants, but she cannot close the account as its primarily in my name But she can take it down to a few baht).

 

Anyway this is my experience and hope it helps some people.  cheers T.

 

Nice to see some definitive posting re probate -- and a bank manager who knows her business -- and who is not intimidated by the lawyer mafia insisting all bank accounts have to go through probate.

Quote

 ....settlement of assets in Thailand through a Thai Last Will and Testament is more convenient and practical. For one, Thai law does not require probate of Last Will and Testaments before it can be enforced.

https://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/lastwill-testament.php

So, yes, my individual savings account, which I use for my annual retirement extension, has my wife as co-signatory, allowing her to withdraw money from my account as she pleases, whether I'm alive or dead. She is not a Power of Attorney, as we understand the term in the West, but more a Pay on Death (POD) beneficiary, which in the West allows assets to bypass probate. Interestingly, as we saw recently on another thread, Kasikorn Bank adds a slight twist to the ability of a co-signatory to clean out the account:

Quote

In cases where the Depositor authorizes another person to withdraw money from the deposit account on the Depositor’s behalf, if the Depositor dies without a written notice given by the Depositor’s heirs to the Bank, and the Bank has paid the money in accordance with the conditions given to the Bank, the Depositor shall agree that the payment made by the Bank is correct, and the Bank shall have no responsibility to the Depositor or the Depositor’s heirs.

https://www.kasikornbank.com/th/personal/Account/Documents/Marketconduct_basic-banking_en.pdf

Slightly convoluted, but sounds like the bank is covering its butt by stating that, absent one or more heirs voicing in writing their complaint that the co-signatory is not a beneficiary to that account, then the money can pass on to the co-signatory. This is akin to something I can no longer find with Google about why assets need not go through probate in Thailand if there's a valid Will, with nobody contesting the beneficiaries or executor. Anyway, would be interesting to see what other folks' bank managers have to say about the disposition of a co-signatory bank account.... I know my Bangkok Bank manager has told us to just clean it out upon my death.

 

Quote

When you open an account the Terms and Conditions require you to notify the bank if an account holder dies.

How does that work? I open an individual account, no co-signer, no joint account holder -- so I sign on the application that I will notify the bank when I'm dead....? Do they have special Spirit Houses for this?

 

[saengd]

I can only speak for UOB which is whom I bank with, they require the remaining joint account holder to notify the bank if one of them dies. I don't know what happens if a co-signer is added later.

[Lacessit]

I tried the route of the signatory being activated at death at Kasikorn and Bangkok Bank, and got blank looks.

My own conscience is now salved by opening a joint account with my GF, and depositing 100,000 baht in it. Passbook only, I keep the passbook where she knows to find it. That amount will easily tide her over until probate is done, she is not a hiso and I've taught her to stay out of debt.

[JimGant]

On 3/2/2020 at 9:42 PM, Lacessit said:

I tried the route of the signatory being activated at death at Kasikorn and Bangkok Bank, and got blank looks.

Probably because the signatory is NOT activated upon death, but upon structuring the account to have a co-signatory. As such, you the owner allows the co-signatory to access your account, either in person at the bank, or online (and maybe with an ATM card -- I believe that was offered when I restructured my savings account with the wife as co-signatory). Thus, there certainly is functionality for such accounts while the owner is still alive.

 

And (some) bank managers will view the co-signatory as your beneficiary upon death, thus still allowing that person access to your account. However, apparently there is nothing definitive about this "beneficiary" concept in Thai law, at least when it comes to bank accounts. Thus, some bank managers, especially if they've been briefed by lawyers, will require probate to legally access this account after the owner's death. Best check, then, with your bank manager if you have such an account. Also, ask about how the manager treats joint accounts, as we've seen several reports on these many Will threads that has some bank managers freezing joint account after the death of one owner -- and these are either/or joint accounts, the most common kind.

[Delight]

  You mention an Australian will.

That implies that you have assets in Australia.

That will be more difficult.

A death certificate -translated into English.

This will be supplied to your administrator is Australia.

 

Given that it appears that your only asset in Thailand is money.

Suggest that you put all your money in a joint account.

Technically if she removes cash via an ATM from  a non joint account -then that removal is illegal.

 

Joint account is the answer -so no need for probate. Ideally move all your Aussie cash assets to Thailand.

My Thai based lawyer advised me that probate can be up to 6 months. Cost around 100K Baht

Edited March 7, 2020 by Delight
Added detail

[saengd]

39 minutes ago, Delight said:

  You mention an Australian will.

That implies that you have assets in Australia.

That will be more difficult.

A death certificate -translated into English.

This will be supplied to your administrator is Australia.

 

Given that it appears that your only asset in Thailand is money.

Suggest that you put all your money in a joint account.

Technically if she removes cash via an ATM from  a non joint account -then that removal is illegal.

 

Joint account is the answer -so no need for probate. Ideally move all your Aussie cash assets to Thailand.

My Thai based lawyer advised me that probate can be up to 6 months. Cost around 100K Baht

Can only comment on the cost aspect which at 100k Baht seems way too high. I've had two estimates in Chiang Mai from known well established lawyers to manage probate, one quotes maximum 30k plus court costs, the other 35k plus costs.

[Delight]

6 hours ago, saengd said:

Can only comment on the cost aspect which at 100k Baht seems way too high. I've had two estimates in Chiang Mai from known well established lawyers to manage probate, one quotes maximum 30k plus court costs, the other 35k plus costs.

 You may be right. My price was for total costs and included the cost of getting the death certificate officially translated into English. This  last detail may   required in  the OP's circumstances . It also included to cover the cost of assisting the overseas executor

[JimGant]

5 hours ago, saengd said:

My Thai based lawyer advised me that probate can be up to 6 months. Cost around 100K Baht

And if you're here on a marriage extension, using the 400k in the bank method, such an account can't be a joint account (unless you double it to 800k). So, if your only asset is your 400k bank account, and the wife is the sole beneficiary, plus the executor of your Thai Will -- why would you even consider having the wife pay 100k and wait 6 months for probate...(or even 30k and court costs)?

 

Quote

Technically if she removes cash via an ATM from a non joint account -then that removal is illegal.

Reference previous discussion on co-signatory: She can access your account as a co-signatory and remove the cash, whether in person at the bank, via ATM, or transferring via Internet Banking. The legality question only arises if she does this after your death. And we can't seem to find anything in Thai law regarding this (as it's not identical to POA, as we find in the West) -- but at least one bank manager says, yes, you can clean out the account, as a co-signatory, after death. Who her legal advisors were, or is this top-down policy, we don't know. But, we can only surmise that some (many?) bank managers might succumb to the requirement for probate.....

 

.....so, what to do? Easiest (and I'm using Bangkok Bank as the example), have your account and your wife's account on Internet Banking. Set if up so that your wife can do an on-line transfer from your account to hers. This will require the bank sending a One Time Password (OTP) to your registered cell phone. Then, you need to do a test transfer of a few baht to check the linkage -- this will again require a OTP. Set the baht daily limit amount (500k, I think, is the default amount). Then, upon death, have the wife briefed on how to do an online transfer.

 

First and foremost, what could go wrong? If your Will has only your wife as sole beneficiary, she's also the executor, and nobody out there contests this -- the Will stands on its own. As such, she could reasonably under Thai law clean out your bank accounts. Also, if she were a co-signatory on your bank accounts, this would seem to give her further bonafides (although I can find nothing in Thai law to support such). Seemingly, many bank managers would go along with this.....

 

.....If not, who cares -- seriously (well, maybe some lawyers out of 100k probate fees). Is the bank manager somehow going to obtain a copy of the death certificate so that she can compare date of death with date of account cleanout? Highly unlikely (a situation where the wife, as co-signatory, has cleanout authority). And if no one is complaining about the account cleanout, what crime has been committed, especially if the legal Will says the wife is get what's in the account......

 

Anyway, I'll be damned if I'll advise the wife to go through probate in order to pay off some lawyer's BMW. Checklist: Haul body to the morgue; logon to iBanking and transfer money; establish barbecue date.

 

 

 

[saengd]

13 hours ago, Delight said:

 You may be right. My price was for total costs and included the cost of getting the death certificate officially translated into English. This  last detail may   required in  the OP's circumstances . It also included to cover the cost of assisting the overseas executor

I'm sure the price will vary a lot based on a number of factors. Just for info. however:

 

Ministry of Foreign Affairs translation certification costs 200 baht per document page, translation itself is usually around 500 baht.

 

An overseas executor will need to understand the value of the Thai estate for IHT purposes but that should be all.

 

 

[Seeall]

On 2/28/2020 at 6:45 PM, bkk6060 said:

Good thing you have a will.

I have been told around 6 months, give or take.

thats long... should give her pin or online access to tide her over.......