Environment friendly chemicals in Phitsanulok

[Grumpy John]

Hi folks,  I am wondering if there is  a shop in Phitsanulok province that has a good range of products for the organic grower?  It's not just for my future greenhouse endeavours but also to use in the mango orchard.  This year has been particularly bad for fruitfly and we would like to take a different approach this Coming  year.  At the moment we are bagging #4's and about a ton of infected fruit has been dropped on the ground.   The Mun Felon and Phet Belart have been hit to.  It's the wife's bread and butter crop and she will be losing 25000+ baht. 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Grumpy John
Smeling

[Grumpy John]

Ok guys, we are not that far from Mueang Phetchabun so I can widen the scope of where I will drive to to get organic product and advice.

 

We are in Mueang Phichit 3 or 4 times a month so I would be interested to know if there is a organic shop there too.

[drtreelove]

Finding a shop with a good range of products, and especially finding reliable advise on organic methods and materials is near impossible in Thailand. I have tried and I have asked for support on this forum for years with little success.  Instead of trying to find a shop that has it all, it is better in my opinion to define what you are looking for and search for that product or products in shops and online, Lazada and others. Most advise that is available is founded on trying to find a quick fix substitute for chemical remedies.  But an organic approach is best if it employs a full range of comprehensive best management practices, soil fertility and water management being the most important. 

 

Mango fruit fly kicked our ass in Chiang Mai. I had no idea first year how fast and furious that pest could come in. Second year on the bagging method proved effective, although time consuming. We had mature trees that had to be climbed for bagging. Red weaver ants held and fiercely defended the territory against climbers, but they couldn't keep up with the fruit flies. Our neighbor and part time helper was the orchard foreman for a very large mango and mixed fruit tree export oriented farm nearby. They used bagging method for fruit fly control. 

 

The standard chemical insecticide treatment is chlorpyrifos canopy sprays.  To find an organic program compatible substitute for this would be cost prohibitive. Organic insect pest repellents like neem azadirachtin or other botanicals would have to be sprayed every week or two at the most, because there is very little residual effectiveness. Short residual is because of biodegradable properties, which reduce environmental contamination, which make it organic. 

 

I don't know about mango fruit fly in this respect, but generally reducing pests and diseases is best achieved by good water management and building soil fertility with soil test based mineral and biological amendments, and other organic best management practices.  Get away from high NPK chemical fertilizers which do more harm than good and create susceptibility to pests and diseases. 

 

[Lacessit]

Just wondering if mango fruit fly has any natural predators. We don't seem to have any problem with my GF's trees near Chiang Rai. We don't use any sprays or fertilisers.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Lacessit

[drtreelove]

5 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Just wondering if mango fruit fly has any natural predators. We don't seem to have any problem with my GF's trees near Chiang Rai. We don't use any sprays or fertilisers.

Natural controls may be present, but most likely you don't have an active population near your property, from which to fly in and infest your trees. We lived in a dense mango growing area with a history of fruit fly infestations.  There are IPM guidelines available that include multiple control modalities, sanitation, bait traps and sprays, search 'mango fruit fly management".  

 

 

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, drtreelove said:

Natural controls may be present, but most likely you don't have an active population near your property, from which to fly in and infest your trees. We lived in a dense mango growing area with a history of fruit fly infestations.  There are IPM guidelines available that include multiple control modalities, sanitation, bait traps and sprays, search 'mango fruit fly management".  

 

 

Monocultures are more efficient until something like fruit fly comes along.

[Grumpy John]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Monocultures are more efficient until something like fruit fly comes along.

There should be some product that can attack and destroy insects and,  for that matter a product for weed destruction...one which really works.   With scientist knowing so much I am surprised we don't have the perfect chemi now! 

[drtreelove]

On 3/8/2020 at 10:54 PM, Grumpy John said:

There should be some product that can attack and destroy insects and,  for that matter a product for weed destruction...one which really works.   With scientist knowing so much I am surprised we don't have the perfect chemi now! 

There are good products available, but not one quick fix that fits all pests and situations as we would like.  We have to try and identify what we are dealing with, the habits and life cycle of the pest and how best to target it with appropriate treatment/management. The best treatment is not always a product, but it can be a management method to interrupt the life cycle of the pest.  That is what Integrated Pest Management is all about. Pest control products are just tools that can be used in some situations as part of a larger management plan.  Think IPM first, with products to kill pests as a secondary choice, only in some situations. 

 

The Corona virus is an example, there is no cure available at the present time, only preventive management. Its the same with many agricultural pests and diseases. 

 

https://www2.ipm.ucanr.edu/What-is-IPM/

[CGW]

On 3/9/2020 at 12:54 PM, Grumpy John said:

There should be some product that can attack and destroy insects and,  for that matter a product for weed destruction...one which really works.   With scientist knowing so much I am surprised we don't have the perfect chemi now! 

I think the "Scientists" have done enough for the time being 

Nothing is 100% environmentally friendly, depends on how you classify it? your looking for the impossible, nobody said growing was easy, sometimes you have to resort to using time and labour.

[drtreelove]

On 3/19/2020 at 8:44 AM, CGW said:

I think the "Scientists" have done enough for the time being 

Nothing is 100% environmentally friendly, depends on how you classify it? your looking for the impossible, nobody said growing was easy, sometimes you have to resort to using time and labour.

You are right that there is nothing 100% environmentally friendly if you are looking, like the Grumpy one, to "attack and destroy".  "Environmentally friendly" needs a different mind-set.  There is a tremendous amount of R&D and new generation of bio-pesticides, botanical insecticides and biological fungicides. But no one product that fits all. Only one attitude that fits all - IPM (Intelligent Plant Management) We have to know our target pest/disease, the life cycle, the host plant and its vulnerabilities, and management options that can work to minimize pest pressure and plant susceptibility.  Soil fertility and water management are first considerations. 

 

Some organic program compatible materials (environmentally friendly) that can significantly reduce pest populations, plant and crop damage if used properly are:

Horticultural oil - smothers overwintering eggs and larvae

70% Neem oil - in-season preventive management of sucking and chewing insect pests, mites and some leaf fungal disease

B.t. (Bacillus thurengiensis) - for actively feeding young moth larvae/caterpillars. Mosquito larvae control. 

Botanical insecticides (many). Azadirachtin neem concentrate, pyrethrins (chrysanthemum flower extract), rosemary oil, clove oil, etc.

Wood vinegar - insecticide, fungicide. herbicide at stronger concentrations.

Spinosad - bioinsecticide

Insecticidal soap - contact insecticide

Herbicidal soap - contact herbicide

Copper fungicides

 

Biological fungicides - Bacillus subtilis, Bacillus amylolquefaciens, Streptomyces lydicus, Reynoutria sachalinensis, Trichoderma hazarianum and others.  

 

BIOLOGICAL FUNGICIDES (good information on how to use these)
http://ipm.uconn.edu/documents/raw2/html/836.php?aid=836

 

CERTIS USA is a leader in biopesticides

https://www.certisusa.com/

 

[Grumpy John]

On 3/19/2020 at 10:44 PM, CGW said:

I think the "Scientists" have done enough for the time being 

Nothing is 100% environmentally friendly, depends on how you classify it? your looking for the impossible, nobody said growing was easy, sometimes you have to resort to using time and labour.

I am not disagreeing with you but would like to point out I am 67 years old and getting older daily so getting out in the orchard with a hoe or shovel is about as appealing as sticking my tongue into some hot babe who has the Wohan China virus.  The has to be chemical solutions with no negative environmental effects locked up in the back room.  Maybe the accountants hold the key?  Less chemi less often may mean less profit! 

[CGW]

9 minutes ago, Grumpy John said:

I am not disagreeing with you but would like to point out I am 67 years old and getting older daily so getting out in the orchard with a hoe or shovel

My reply was somewhat tongue in cheek, we are close enough to the same age, how do I "know" you are looking for the impossible? I have been there already and looked as I do not enjoy physical labour & hate weeding! There is just no systemic weed killers available here that I have been able to find. ???? 

[Grumpy John]

10 hours ago, drtreelove said:

You are right that there is nothing 100% environmentally friendly if you are looking, like the Grumpy one, to "attack and destroy".  "Environmentally friendly" needs a different mind-set.  There is a tremendous amount of R&D and new generation of bio-pesticides, botanical insecticides and biological fungicides. But no one product that fits all. Only one attitude that fits all - IPM (Intelligent Plant Management) We have to know our target pest/disease, the life cycle, the host plant and its vulnerabilities, and management options that can work to minimize pest pressure and plant susceptibility.  Soil fertility and water management are first considerations. 

 

Some organic program compatible materials (environmentally friendly) that can significantly reduce pest populations, plant and crop damage if used properly are:

Horticultural oil - smothers overwintering eggs and larvae

70% Neem oil - in-season preventive management of sucking and chewing insect pests, mites and some leaf fungal disease

B.t. (Bacillus thurengiensis) - for actively feeding young moth larvae/caterpillars. Mosquito larvae control. 

Botanical insecticides (many). Azadirachtin neem concentrate, pyrethrins (chrysanthemum flower extract), rosemary oil, clove oil, etc.

Wood vinegar - insecticide, fungicide. herbicide at stronger concentrations.

Spinosad - bioinsecticide

Insecticidal soap - contact insecticide

Herbicidal soap - contact herbicide

Copper fungicides

 

Biological fungicides - Bacillus subtilis, Bacillus amylolquefaciens, Streptomyces lydicus, Reynoutria sachalinensis, Trichoderma hazarianum and others.  

 

BIOLOGICAL FUNGICIDES (good information on how to use these)
http://ipm.uconn.edu/documents/raw2/html/836.php?aid=836

 

CERTIS USA is a leader in biopesticides

https://www.certisusa.com/

 

I appreciate you pointing out some of your Solutions and showing pixs of products you favour but without adding the price of the produce and the frequency of applications it doesn't help much.   It's like products with neem in them.  At the recommended application rates for the ones we looked at the cost would break the bank!  My wife has to make money to put in the bank  not into the pocket of suppliers of high priced product.