U.S. envoy blames China for endangering world with coronavirus

[Selatan]

At least can stop all the bat soup jokes already. The coronavirus found from bats that matches around 96% of SARS-CoV-2 couldn't infect humans.

The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2

This sounds more like the undetected HIV infections for who knows how long before it was first discovered in the US. I wouldn't be surprised that many seasonal flu pneumonia cases in the past may have been wrongly diagnosed but might have instead been caused by this virus instead.

[Emeraldisle]

On 3/26/2020 at 2:05 PM, AussieBob18 said:

I agree 100%.  China has manipulated the western governments and influencers and organisations through bribery and corruption.  You think Thailand is corrupt - that aint anything on China - over centuries they have refined it into an art form and teflon coated and titanium reinforced it.  There are many many examples of where China has done things and not been 'punished' and got things they wanted, that can only explained by one thing - they have them all under control.  It is no coincidence that after China was allowed to join the World Trade Organisation, that they immediately started to use their groing wealth to their own advantage.

 

The only way China will be held to account is if the People demand they be punished. All those that China has control and influence over will do some token action, and let them continue with their ways.  The People should and must complain and accuse them now - the more the better.  And then when the Wuhan Covid19 virus has passed, the People must then demand action be taken - only then will Govts and Organisations do something - because they will be forced to do it.

 

The USA is leading the charge to have them crucified and a lot of the American People want them severely punished. IMO the best way to do that is to shut down their World Trade Status and ban all trade and tourism into and out of China for 10 years.  If they comply and agree and accept - then and only then let them back in - after 5 years partially - but only if they implement open and elections whereby the People of China elect their Government.  Sanctions worked against USSR - they eventually went broke. By allowing China to trade with us, we have supported the Communists in power and they have used that wealth we gave them to entrench their power and spread into SEAsia (such as in Thailand) - the time is right to reverse that policy. 

 

Well said. I couldn't agree more

[Chazar]

On 3/26/2020 at 7:52 PM, Boomer6969 said:

Vaguely remember the "Mad Cow Disease", did it come from China too?

with  500 deaths a year its hardly  worth  a mention

[Damrongsak]

On 3/26/2020 at 10:05 AM, AussieBob18 said:

I agree 100%.  China has manipulated the western governments and influencers and organisations through bribery and corruption.  You think Thailand is corrupt - that aint anything on China - over centuries they have refined it into an art form and teflon coated and titanium reinforced it.  There are many many examples of where China has done things and not been 'punished' and got things they wanted, that can only explained by one thing - they have them all under control.  It is no coincidence that after China was allowed to join the World Trade Organisation, that they immediately started to use their groing wealth to their own advantage.

 

The only way China will be held to account is if the People demand they be punished. All those that China has control and influence over will do some token action, and let them continue with their ways.  The People should and must complain and accuse them now - the more the better.  And then when the Wuhan Covid19 virus has passed, the People must then demand action be taken - only then will Govts and Organisations do something - because they will be forced to do it.

 

The USA is leading the charge to have them crucified and a lot of the American People want them severely punished. IMO the best way to do that is to shut down their World Trade Status and ban all trade and tourism into and out of China for 10 years.  If they comply and agree and accept - then and only then let them back in - after 5 years partially - but only if they implement open and elections whereby the People of China elect their Government.  Sanctions worked against USSR - they eventually went broke. By allowing China to trade with us, we have supported the Communists in power and they have used that wealth we gave them to entrench their power and spread into SEAsia (such as in Thailand) - the time is right to reverse that policy. 

 

The emperors still rule, though it may be a committee now.  Must be fun to have plenty of money and more fun to have all that power.  An entire herd of pigs.  Let swine flu take them all.

[simple1]

14 hours ago, AussieBob18 said:

Are you serious? There are nil foreign factories in China - they are all owned by China. You cannot buy any property in China as there is no private ownership of land in China. One can only obtain rights to use land.  They are not stupid - we are, to allow them to buy our property - land included.  Get educated about something before you start criticisng what you dont have a clue about.

 

 

Many are joint venture companies. With your scenario there would be massive capital / profit losses for Western companies in China. When are you going to China to lead the revolution - LOL

[Logosone]

10 hours ago, Selatan said:

Best explanation so far, from the experts, of course:

 

Coronavirus: pathogen could have been spreading in humans for decades, study says

 

 

Well, this South China Morning Post article proves the SCMP can't be trusted at all.

 

It tries desperately to abuse the study it cites to imply the virus did not start in Wuhan. That is not what the study says at all. I checked. It does not say the virus could have spread for decades.

[Logosone]

7 hours ago, Selatan said:

At least can stop all the bat soup jokes already. The coronavirus found from bats that matches around 96% of SARS-CoV-2 couldn't infect humans.

The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2

This sounds more like the undetected HIV infections for who knows how long before it was first discovered in the US. I wouldn't be surprised that many seasonal flu pneumonia cases in the past may have been wrongly diagnosed but might have instead been caused by this virus instead.

Not really, the bat jokes can keep coming, from the study itself:

 

"As many early cases of COVID-19 were linked to the Huanan market in Wuhan1,2, it is possible that an animal source was present at this location. Given the similarity of SARS-CoV-2 to bat SARS-CoV-like coronaviruses2, it is likely that bats serve as reservoir hosts for its progenitor."

 

In reality it was never thought that bats were the actual animals sold in Wuhan, rather that animals sold at Wuhan got it from Bats. That's exactly what this study proves.

 

Furthermore it says,  "Estimates of the timing of the most recent common ancestor of SARS-CoV-2 made with current sequence data point to emergence of the virus in late November 2019 to early December 201923, compatible with the earliest retrospectively confirmed cases24. Hence, this scenario presumes a period of unrecognized transmission in humans between the initial zoonotic event and the acquisition of the polybasic cleavage site."

 

It does not mention "decades" like the SCMP claims, that is of course fantastically unlikely. Yes for a time there could be misdiagnosis, but not decades, as evidence by the speed with which that excellent Chinese female doctor recognised that this was most likely a coronavirus related event. 

 

Excellent study, poor and intentionally misleading journalism.

Edited March 30, 2020 by Logosone

[spidermike007]

Woody Johnson would be more productive, by blaming the US government and the CDC for such a slow, lame, and destructive lack of response to this virus, early on. There is much blame to go around. And the administration deserves a huge amount of it. They messed up to a historic degree. And nobody can honestly say they did not see it coming. Trump allowed 300,000 people in from China, during the month of January, when the virus was raging in Wuhan and surroundings. And even after his infamous "lockdown" on Feb. 2nd, he continued to allow all Americans and Chinese with green cards to come and go as they pleased from China, without any screening, no doubt contributing dramatically to the number of cases we are seeing today. 

[bristolboy]

Well, Pompeo may be blaming China but he can also be very forgiving. And no, not fake news. This is a press release from Pompeo himself:

 

The United States Announces Assistance To Combat the Novel Coronavirus

"This week the State Department has facilitated the transportation of nearly 17.8 tons of donated medical supplies to the Chinese people, including masks, gowns, gauze, respirators, and other vital materials.  These donations are a testament to the generosity of the American people."

https://www.state.gov/the-united-states-announces-assistance-to-combat-the-novel-coronavirus/

Trump administration sent protective medical gear to China while he minimized the virus threat to US

 

Back on February 7, the World Health Organization sounded alarm bells about "the limited stock of PPE," noting demand was 100 times higher than normal for this equipment.https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/29/opinions/coronavirus-personal-protective-equipment-obeidallah/index.html

 

 

 

[Logosone]

8 hours ago, Selatan said:

At least can stop all the bat soup jokes already. The coronavirus found from bats that matches around 96% of SARS-CoV-2 couldn't infect humans.

The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2

This sounds more like the undetected HIV infections for who knows how long before it was first discovered in the US. I wouldn't be surprised that many seasonal flu pneumonia cases in the past may have been wrongly diagnosed but might have instead been caused by this virus instead.

The study says that the adaptation to humans could also have occurred in animals which have the same "high receptor homology" as humans, ie

 

"ferrets, cats and other species with high receptor homology".

 

So the most likely explanation is not that it spread in humans for a long time, rather that it jumped from bat to a species which has human-like high receptor homology, such as ferret, cat etc, and adapted in that host. Then such an animal passed on the virus to a human.

 

Why the SCMP tries desperately to imply that it proves that the virus spread for decades in humans is clear, it wants to make a case that the virus did not come from Wuhan but outside China. This propaganda is very crude and unsophisticated. They could at least left out the 'decades' claim, which is not in the study.

 

 

[sukhumvitneon]

Not sure if this has been posted, but the wildlife markets are back in business baybee

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8163761/Chinese-markets-selling-bats.html?ito=social-twitter_mailonline

 

nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure

[Logosone]

Since Covid19 from bats can not spread to humans directly, but has most likely spread to cats I'd be more worried about pussycats since they have the same time of receptors we do.

 

Direct human to cat transmission has already been documented.

 

https://www.livescience.com/cat-infected-covid-19-from-owner.html

 

Obviously could happen the other way as well. But these are very rare events.

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Logosone

[sukhumvitneon]

3 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Woody Johnson would be more productive, by blaming the US government and the CDC for such a slow, lame, and destructive lack of response to this virus, early on. There is much blame to go around. And the administration deserves a huge amount of it. They messed up to a historic degree. And nobody can honestly say they did not see it coming. Trump allowed 300,000 people in from China, during the month of January, when the virus was raging in Wuhan and surroundings. And even after his infamous "lockdown" on Feb. 2nd, he continued to allow all Americans and Chinese with green cards to come and go as they pleased from China, without any screening, no doubt contributing dramatically to the number of cases we are seeing today. 

The biggest cause of the virus was China's filthy sanitation habits and lying about/covering up the outbreak. China lied about it for months. Trump tried to close the border but "that's racist" and many Chinese Americans who were entitled to reenter the US selfishly went back to China for Chinese New Year and came back which is how the virus got here.

[AussieBob18]

7 hours ago, simple1 said:

Many are joint venture companies. With your scenario there would be massive capital / profit losses for Western companies in China. When are you going to China to lead the revolution - LOL

True - but there are very few assets in China owned by foreigners - which was my point. They cant take anywhere near as much of 'our' assets, if we take the $billions of assets that they have in our countries (the west).

Western companies would lose that is true - but look at who and what they are - companies that chose to manufacture in China instead of the west - because it was more profitable for them.  Bad luck for them - bring it back home - the game has changed.

Not anytime soon will I visit China - cant even buy a ticket to get out of the country, let alone into China, which for obvious reasons I would not like to do ????

 

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

True - but there are very few assets in China owned by foreigners - which was my point.

 

Really? That was your point. Here's what you wrote:

"Are you serious? There are nil foreign factories in China - they are all owned by China. You cannot buy any property in China as there is no private ownership of land in China. One can only obtain rights to use land.  They are not stupid - we are, to allow them to buy our property - land included.  Get educated about something before you start criticisng what you dont have a clue about."

You could do worse than take the last sentence of your post to heart.

[AussieBob18]

1 hour ago, sukhumvitneon said:

The biggest cause of the virus was China's filthy sanitation habits and lying about/covering up the outbreak. China lied about it for months. Trump tried to close the border but "that's racist" and many Chinese Americans who were entitled to reenter the US selfishly went back to China for Chinese New Year and came back which is how the virus got here.

Absolutely true mate - China is to blame and they should and will be 'punished'.  Looking back on what should have been done or should not have been done, is often distorted and unreasonable, because of the 20/20 vision that hindsight offers. 

 

But iof you do look objectively at 2 of the previous pandemics that were reasonably quickly brought under control (SARs and MERs) the key to those successful outcomes (less than 1000 dead and minimal transmission of the infections to other locations), was early notice and implementation of the protocols. China did not do the right thing and that early opportunity was lost.

 

Now I am not a conspiracy type person - IMO if it is either a screw up or a conspiracy - 99 of 100 are a screw up.  But I think that this could be the 1 in a hundred that was 'deliberate'.   Why did China arrest and detain the Docotor that tried to warn about the extremely contagious new coronavirus that had been infecting people in Wuhan since late November.  Why did China shut down the internet and social media in the country to prevent information being sent to the world.  Is it just a coincidence that this infection occurred during the Chinese new year celebrations with many people travelling both to and from China.  Is it just a coincidence that the virus was first diagnosed in Wuhan, which is China's China's first and only biosafety level 4 (BSL–4) laboratory that was opened in 2015.  Why did China refuse to provide to WHO and the world the 'base level' DNA of the virus for outside research and only reluctantly handed that over after a few months delay.  Why has China refused entry for any foreign virology experts and researchers - even now that they apparently have the infection under control.  

 

Those questions and issues that China is not answering or responding to, even now, means to me that the odds of a conspiracy over a screw up are better than 50/50.  But even if it is a screw up and was not deliberate - it is clear that China's actions are to blame for how widespread the pandemic has become, and for delaying advice and assistance to the world.  

 

China has gained a lot from this pandemic - not the least being that Trump is under pressure politically.

Edited March 30, 2020 by AussieBob18

[simple1]

48 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

True - but there are very few assets in China owned by foreigners - which was my point. They cant take anywhere near as much of 'our' assets, if we take the $billions of assets that they have in our countries (the west).

Western companies would lose that is true - but look at who and what they are - companies that chose to manufacture in China instead of the west - because it was more profitable for them.  Bad luck for them - bring it back home - the game has changed.

Not anytime soon will I visit China - cant even buy a ticket to get out of the country, let alone into China, which for obvious reasons I would not like to do ????

 

Companies that generate profit for their Western shareholders. China has opened up recently in order that Western financial services companies can operate in their own right, assume there would be other industry verticals. India is also a major location for Western companies outsourcing e.g. software services is an example worth billions of dollars, automobile manufacturing and so on. Unfortunately India is also a major abuser of human rights, yet very little is said. Last, but not least trump companies for years outsourced to China, continued doing so even after he was elected. trump and family are excellent examples for hypocritical behaviour.

[AussieBob18]

57 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Companies that generate profit for their Western shareholders. China has opened up recently in order that Western financial services companies can operate in their own right, assume there would be other industry verticals. India is also a major location for Western companies outsourcing e.g. software services is an example worth billions of dollars, automobile manufacturing and so on. Unfortunately India is also a major abuser of human rights, yet very little is said. Last, but not least trump companies for years outsourced to China, continued doing so even after he was elected. trump and family are excellent examples for hypocritical behaviour.

Why bring politics into it - Trump has been POTUS elect since 2016 and in the White House since 2017 and will be until 2024.

 

China has not opened up as you say - or imply - they have facilitated the continuation of Hong Kong's finanical role in the world, and are using it to their advantage.  IMO the finanical world should have been forced by Govts to move to Singapore, but China had used the time it was given to corrupt/convice enough powerful people to leave things almost as they were.  

 

Dont get me wrong - I dont dislike China - I hate and loath them. They have gotten away with so much since they were allopwed to 'join the world' that it would be impossible to list them all.  Time to put them back in their place. 

Edited March 30, 2020 by AussieBob18

[simple1]

3 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

China has not opened up as you say - <SNIP>

Look up WFOE, Plus foreign lenders to establish wholly-owned banks in China, and removing the need for prior approval for conducting businesses in the local currency, known as the renminbi or yuan. are permitted

 

 

[AussieBob18]

14 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Look up WFOE, Plus foreign lenders to establish wholly-owned banks in China, and removing the need for prior approval for conducting businesses in the local currency, known as the renminbi or yuan. are permitted

 

They are like a foreigner in Thailand setting up a Thai Business using foreign money at start-up.  But I hear what you are saying in that they are like a 'real' company - even though they are under China laws - and I dont think the land any factory is constructed upon is owned by the corporation - only leased?  Either way, the issue is what asset values do foreigners have/own in China versus what China owns in the west (which does include title/ownership).  Is it 2 to 1 or 10 to 1 or 100 to 1.  Dont know the exact numbers myself - but I think more the latter than the former.  Might look that up tomorrow - we are about to watch another quarantine time movie ????

 

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, AussieBob18 said:

Why bring politics into it - Trump has been POTUS elect since 2016 and in the White House since 2017 and will be until 2024.

I would advise you to keep sticking to arguments that depend on predictions. That way, you don't have to worry about the facts contradicting. At least for a prolonged length of time.

[Selatan]

9 hours ago, Logosone said:

Well, this South China Morning Post article proves the SCMP can't be trusted at all.

 

It tries desperately to abuse the study it cites to imply the virus did not start in Wuhan. That is not what the study says at all. I checked. It does not say the virus could have spread for decades.

SCMP may have arrived at their own conclusion from this:
 

Quote

Hence, this scenario presumes a period of unrecognized transmission in humans between the initial zoonotic event and the acquisition of the polybasic cleavage site. Sufficient opportunity could have arisen if there had been many prior zoonotic events that produced short chains of human-to-human transmission over an extended period.

Totally valid conclusion, if you ask me, because nobody knew how long it has been happening. 

[Selatan]

9 hours ago, Logosone said:

Not really, the bat jokes can keep coming, from the study itself:

 

"As many early cases of COVID-19 were linked to the Huanan market in Wuhan1,2, it is possible that an animal source was present at this location. Given the similarity of SARS-CoV-2 to bat SARS-CoV-like coronaviruses2, it is likely that bats serve as reservoir hosts for its progenitor."

 

In reality it was never thought that bats were the actual animals sold in Wuhan, rather that animals sold at Wuhan got it from Bats. That's exactly what this study proves.

 

Furthermore it says,  "Estimates of the timing of the most recent common ancestor of SARS-CoV-2 made with current sequence data point to emergence of the virus in late November 2019 to early December 201923, compatible with the earliest retrospectively confirmed cases24. Hence, this scenario presumes a period of unrecognized transmission in humans between the initial zoonotic event and the acquisition of the polybasic cleavage site."

 

It does not mention "decades" like the SCMP claims, that is of course fantastically unlikely. Yes for a time there could be misdiagnosis, but not decades, as evidence by the speed with which that excellent Chinese female doctor recognised that this was most likely a coronavirus related event. 

 

Excellent study, poor and intentionally misleading journalism.

Bat coronavirus closest to the new virus couldn't really infect humans:
 

Quote

As many early cases of COVID-19 were linked to the Huanan market in Wuhan, it is possible that an animal source was present at this location. Given the similarity of SARS-CoV-2 to bat SARS-CoV-like coronaviruses, it is likely that bats serve as reservoir hosts for its progenitor. Although RaTG13, sampled from a Rhinolophus affinis bat, is ~96% identical overall to SARS-CoV-2, its spike diverges in the RBD, which suggests that it may not bind efficiently to human ACE2.

You are free to come out with different animal to joke about though.

[opalred]

i have been going to china past 20years  and the usa over 40years on and off 

china is miles ahead of usa in infrastructure and medical care for its people

how much money is usa in dept to china 

why are the medical supply's coming from china /cargo plane after plane coming from china to usa from china /trump didn't tell you that/the WHO offer test kits trump said no he will make there own /they failed now test kits coming from china/as the stumbling goes on people are suffering/why are they so slow?

 

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

6 hours ago, opalred said:

i have been going to china past 20years  and the usa over 40years on and off 

china is miles ahead of usa in infrastructure and medical care for its people

how much money is usa in dept to china 

why are the medical supply's coming from china /cargo plane after plane coming from china to usa from china /trump didn't tell you that/the WHO offer test kits trump said no he will make there own /they failed now test kits coming from china/as the stumbling goes on people are suffering/why are they so slow?

 

 

China the big exporter of faulty junk.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/coroanvirus-holland-recalls-over-half-a-million-masks-imported-from-china-2020-3

[AussieBob18]

On 3/30/2020 at 6:18 PM, simple1 said:

Look up WFOE, Plus foreign lenders to establish wholly-owned banks in China, and removing the need for prior approval for conducting businesses in the local currency, known as the renminbi or yuan. are permitted

Done a bit of research and what you said has some validity. But it l;ooks like there is still a very long way to go before they are ever truly 'open'.  Quote:  n November 2017, China first announced a plan to allow foreign companies to own financial services businesses in China. That plan called for allowing ownership of 51% of financial firms in three years and the removal of all restrictions in five years.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rebeccafannin/2019/07/20/chinas-speedier-timetable-to-lift-foreign-ownership-of-its-financial-sector-puts-onus-on-investors/#1f1cedd11f70

 

I also found that there is ab organisation tracking China's foreign investment overseas - and it is extensive: 

US$2034.22 Billion in Total. That is a huge amount.

https://www.aei.org/china-global-investment-tracker/

Plenty there to take in reparations if they dont cough up ????

[AussieBob18]

On 3/30/2020 at 8:05 PM, bristolboy said:

I would advise you to keep sticking to arguments that depend on predictions. That way, you don't have to worry about the facts contradicting. At least for a prolonged length of time.

Until 2024 for sure - glad you agree.

 

[simple1]

7 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

Done a bit of research and what you said has some validity. But it l;ooks like there is still a very long way to go before they are ever truly 'open'.  Quote:  n November 2017, China first announced a plan to allow foreign companies to own financial services businesses in China. That plan called for allowing ownership of 51% of financial firms in three years and the removal of all restrictions in five years.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rebeccafannin/2019/07/20/chinas-speedier-timetable-to-lift-foreign-ownership-of-its-financial-sector-puts-onus-on-investors/#1f1cedd11f70

 

I also found that there is ab organisation tracking China's foreign investment overseas - and it is extensive: 

US$2034.22 Billion in Total. That is a huge amount.

https://www.aei.org/china-global-investment-tracker/

Plenty there to take in reparations if they dont cough up ????

 

More recent info for financial services...

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-finance/trade-deal-touts-financial-sector-wins-china-to-scrap-securities-business-cap-faster-idUSKBN1ZE2OI

 

In the scheme of things is 2 trillion that much for a superpower such as China. To put in perspective, Chinese were siphoning corrupt money to offshore Western banks at something like a trillion a year & more.

 

Oz has recently announced a ban on Chinese players buying Oz assets, at least whilst the Covid financial crisis is in play.

[AussieBob18]

Obviously this guys is a right wing media presenter - but the first 6 minutes is about the Australian 60 minutes report detailing that China lied, and the next 4 minutes details an internal Chinese scientific paper that casts huge doubt on the origin being from a wet market and that is was most likely leaked/escape (human error).  I tend to believe that - their actions are very much of a guilty party trying to cover up their mistake.

 

 

[bristolboy]

14 hours ago, AussieBob18 said:

Obviously this guys is a right wing media presenter - but the first 6 minutes is about the Australian 60 minutes report detailing that China lied, and the next 4 minutes details an internal Chinese scientific paper that casts huge doubt on the origin being from a wet market and that is was most likely leaked/escape (human error).  I tend to believe that - their actions are very much of a guilty party trying to cover up their mistake.

 

 

It's a pity that virologists tend to strongly disagree with you. You know, scientists who specialize in this. Science really isn't about consumer preferences.

No, the coronavirus wasn’t made in a lab. A genetic analysis shows it’s from nature

The coronavirus pandemic circling the globe is caused by a natural virus, not one made in a lab, a new study says.

The virus’s genetic makeup reveals that SARS-CoV-2 isn’t a mishmash of known viruses, as might be expected if it were human-made. And it has unusual features that have only recently been identified in scaly anteaters called pangolins, evidence that the virus came from nature, Kristian Andersen and his colleagues report March 17 in Nature Medicine.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coronavirus-covid-19-not-human-made-lab-genetic-analysis-nature