Working online for overseas organisation

[gearbox]

34 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

 

Correct me if I am wrong but I guess a good part of being a digital nomad is to not pay income taxes anywhere. And that is obviously something tax authorities don't like anywhere in this word.

Not necessarily. It is nice to have but the main perk is to be getting paid Western money but have a third world cost of living. In many Western countries taxes are low below a certain threshold, but that threshold allows very good lifestyle in countries like Thailand and an opportunity to save something. If you earn 50K AUD in Australia the tax would be around 15%. That's "working poor" income in Australia but the net after tax will give you around 75K THB per month to spend in Thailand. The rents alone in Sydney are probably 5 times higher than Thailand.

The tax issues can become important if the income goes to 6 digits and above $, I doubt there are too many making that much. Also many of the big businesses in the Western world want to deal with local legal entities, they are not going to start paying some small company registered in some remote location just like that.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

With "real" digital nomads that sounds right.

But I guess there are also lots of people here who stay(ed) with a tourist visa but worked (also) for Thai companies without paying taxes.

 

Correct me if I am wrong but I guess a good part of being a digital nomad is to not pay income taxes anywhere. And that is obviously something tax authorities don't like anywhere in this word.

The "Five Flags" people do that - but they are mostly rich folks.  Most ordinary remote-workers would happily pay the relatively-low Thai taxes for a proper means of legal stay.  But as it is difficult to track foreign-earned income, easier to just make a set-fee.

 

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

As far as I know the USA tax authorities want to know your income anywhere in this word.

And as far as I know the USA is (one of?) the only country that does that - with severe penalties for people who don't comply.

There are still enough offshore heavens where people and companies pay (almost) no taxes.

I believe China and NK do this as well.  We Americans are in "good company," eh?  You lose your passport if what you "owe" exceeds a threshold. 

 

If you are paid a salary by a foreign-corporation AND pay taxes in that country, you don't have to pay USA taxes - unless that country has a have 'totalization agreement' with the USA, which come into play.   But if you work for yourself, you have to pay taxes no matter where you live, and who pays you - even if the funds never touch the USA.  

 

Just like the self-employed working in the USA, expat remote-workers pay double the "social security" tax 15% from their first dollar to $137,700 (2020) if they have the temerity to work for themselves.  Income above that amount is not subject to this tax (yes, really).  The separate "income tax" has a higher deductible for expats - but this kicks in after personal-deductions, etc, so doesn't start at one's "first dollar."

Edited March 29, 2020 by JackThompson

[AussieBob18]

None of the members of my Thai wife's family have ever paid income tax. Thais dont pay income tax as a general rule. Only those that work for 'real' corporations or own them. The issue is not about taxing Expats who work online - they dont tax Thais and there is billions there if they want it - but to enforce compliance is obviously a long long long long way off.  And they know Expats spend much of the money they make in Thailand - same as the vast majority of Thais - no income tax - but do spend and so they all pay VAT.

The questions about how silly and outdated the immigration visa system is are valid - but nothing changes in Thailand Govt Departments because they are wrong, silly or outdated.  And before any change is proposed or implemented, there are many many discussions held - and the number one issue for each person in those meetings is: what will it mean for me and mine. Meaning will I, or those who pay me, lose money because of this proposal. Anything that loses money for anyone is a problem, and unless something can be worked out to cover any 'loses' then it is unlikely to proceed. Because next time it will be their turn to lose some money/payments.  Corrupt? Nepotism? Yes and Hell Yes. 

 

[Mr Smithy]

Can anyone tell me if any western country allows a foreign nomad to enter, work, stay for as long as they wish and pay no tax?

[JackThompson]

14 minutes ago, Mr Smithy said:

Can anyone tell me if any western country allows a foreign nomad to enter, work, stay for as long as they wish and pay no tax?

USA.  Just come in as a tourist or sneak in.  No checks on your legality thereafter.  You can even get a drivers license in many states, and get special reduced sentences if you commit a crime (including violent), to avoid you being reported to the Feds and potentially deported.  You can also work w/o legal papers - and no enforcement on using fake ones.  Remitting money out is also easy - special programs at the banks to help you send your illegal-income to another country. 

 

There are also a plethora of "work visa" programs - from blue-collar to white-collar, if you want to be "legal" (if it matters).  One of these called the OTP allows businesses to forgo paying social-security tax, if they hire you, instead of a citizen.  The businesses like it this way.

Edited March 29, 2020 by JackThompson

[Mr Smithy]

2 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

USA.  Just come in as a tourist or sneak in. 

If it is as easy as you claim why do nomads try to stay in Thailand when life would be so much simpler in the US? 

[JackThompson]

5 minutes ago, Mr Smithy said:

If it is as easy as you claim why do nomads try to stay in Thailand when life would be so much simpler in the US? 

Thailand is a nicer place to live in many respects - better ROI on living / overhead costs.  In my case, married to a Thai wife, but my documented overseas-income "doesn't count" to immigration, so I took a job for a Thai company.  I did not want to take a Thai job - and much better for the country/people if I kept bringing in MORE new-money, instead.  But, immigration left me with no choice.

[jacob29]

.0

1 hour ago, Mr Smithy said:

Can anyone tell me if any western country allows a foreign nomad to enter, work, stay for as long as they wish and pay no tax?

I understand the ethical objections, but arguably those living off international investment income (expat and Thai alike), almost certainly not paying Thai tax on it, are no better. Despite being fully legal. I don't think the legality of it is the critical factor. Similarly when I think of immigrants (specifically in the US) working in the black economy out of necessity, since there's no legal channel for it, my first thought isn't about how they're not taxed.

[FritsSikkink]

22 hours ago, drbeach said:

I don't think they envision cracking down or upsetting digital nomads, otherwise the country will lose out on billions of dollars in revenue

Delusion at it's best, billions of dollars from digital nomads. 

If they made so much they could afford to setup a company and be legal.

 

Thought the whole idea of nomads was to travel and not stick in one place to start with.

Edited March 29, 2020 by FritsSikkink

[JackThompson]

16 minutes ago, jacob29 said:

.. Similarly when I think of immigrants (specifically in the US) working in the black economy out of necessity, since there's no legal channel for it, my first thought isn't about how they're not taxed.

Me either.  I think about the Americans whose futures were wrecked, because they were replaced by less-expensive (to the business) foreign workers.  It happened to me - construction trades - when I was young.  Next, came the outsourcing.

 

There is no "necessity" for illegal foreign-nationals to work in the USA.  They can go home any time; it's a free flight, if they turn themselves in and ask to be returned - not like IDC here, where one is stuck forever, unless they have money to pay for an expensive flight home (no discount-fares).

[Isaanbiker]

22 hours ago, drbeach said:

Once this crisis is over, if they want to be seen as a normal and welcoming business-friendly country, they'll either introduce a 'digital nomad' visa of some sort or retain the status quo.

 

Besides, there are probably millions of holidaymakers who come here every year, who check work emails and do little tasks for work back home. There is no way of enforcing or cracking down on that, lest Thailand's tourist industry collapses completely as a result. No other country I know of cares either.

 

Personally, despite the confusing and sometimes xenophobic rhetoric of the current government, I don't think they envision cracking down or upsetting digital nomads, otherwise the country will lose out on billions of dollars in revenue and will be regarded as a tropical North Korea, a country best avoided for any purpose altogether.

Once this crisis is over, if they want to be seen as a normal and welcoming business-friendly country, they'll either introduce a 'digital nomad' visa of some sort or retain the status quo

 

"Status Quo"? Business friendly country for people who do not pay taxes and often stay on ED visas?

 

  A Digital Nomad Visa/ Try to get that in the US, or somewhere in Europe, please. 

 

   Never Stop dreaming. 

[Mr Smithy]

41 minutes ago, jacob29 said:

but arguably those living off international investment income

I live on such an income and pay tax in my home country which has a 'double taxation' agreement with Thailand. If that agreement did not exist I would pay tax in Thailand

[jacob29]

4 hours ago, Mr Smithy said:

I live on such an income and pay tax in my home country which has a 'double taxation' agreement with Thailand. If that agreement did not exist I would pay tax in Thailand

Feel free to correct me, my understanding is overseas income (for everyone) is only taxed on what is brought into Thailand within 12 months of being earned. Someone would just need to repatriate the income one year later to avoid tax, which is an odd rule, almost as if it's designed to allow the wealthy to circumvent it.

[JackThompson]

8 hours ago, Isaanbiker said:

Once this crisis is over, if they want to be seen as a normal and welcoming business-friendly country, they'll either introduce a 'digital nomad' visa of some sort or retain the status quo

 

"Status Quo"? Business friendly country for people who do not pay taxes and often stay on ED visas?

 

  A Digital Nomad Visa/ Try to get that in the US, or somewhere in Europe, please. 

 

   Never Stop dreaming. 

What percentage of the USA or Euro population depends on tourist-spending to live? 
How many people immigrate from the USA or Europe to "earn higher wages" in Thailand??

See the difference, now?

Different regulations make sense under different circumstances. 

 

There is an immigration problem here - Laotians, Cambodians, and Burmese - note the median income there is LOWER than Thailand - undermining the wages of Thais who formerly had jobs in many trades.  They get "legal" permission to undermine Thai workers.  As a result, Thais are often forced to go overseas for work.  This is a betrayal - only benefitting the elite-consumers of low-wage replacement workers.  The same happens in my passport-country, the USA.

[ChaiyaTH]

11 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

Delusion at it's best, billions of dollars from digital nomads. 

If they made so much they could afford to setup a company and be legal.

Disagree as most are individuals and that would not be interesting at all, even if earning enough to pay it, feels like a waste and hassle.
But if you would take 20K nomads spending 40K a month average, it certainly was at the peak of things and before visa issues, it is near 1B baht p/m.

Compared to backpackers doing a month with 40K it isn't that much though, would only be 240,000 backpackers a year.
It is funny how they do think to be very important for local economy and even country. As well the term digital nomads is obviously abused, they are no nomads.

Would be pretty easy for immigration to round most of them up by just joining the facebook groups so do think it is tolerated
but if they ever want to get rid of them, they can easily charge someone with that. Happened before.

Edited March 29, 2020 by ChaiyaTH

[FritsSikkink]

7 hours ago, ChaiyaTH said:

Disagree as most are individuals and that would not be interesting at all, even if earning enough to pay it, feels like a waste and hassle.

A waste and hassle? They live here and should to pay tax over that "near billion" or what ever the real amount earned is. They don't give a sht about the laws and think only about them selves. Get legal or otherwise I hope  they are forced to leave, the sooner the better. 

Edited March 30, 2020 by FritsSikkink

[Neeranam]

On 3/27/2020 at 6:04 PM, jimmjam said:

Just dont say anything to anyone, and stay quiet about it. There is no work permit for this kind of work unless your company has a branch here.

Its tollerated.

If its tolerated, why keep it quiet? 

[Neeranam]

On 3/28/2020 at 3:12 PM, SS1 said:

Currently there is no official solution for such, but there are plenty of people on the same boat. Most people just opt for something like the Elite visa, if they can afford it, and stay quiet about their work. 

 

One way to do it 100% legally is if you can find a local company who can employ you, where the organisation agrees for this company to provide the service you are working on to them as a client. 

In general it is currently a grey area and the Labour Department is well-aware of this, as well as the fact that they aren't currently offering any viable options for people like yourself. They tolerate digital nomadism, where one is actually staying in Thailand temporarily and working online for foreign companies while "on holidays". But living here long term whilst working online without a work permit is a grey area, to which the Labour Department cannot give a clear answer to. I asked about this during a seminar with the department, but this question was answered with "we cannot comment at this stage" pretty much. 



 

In my experience, most of the online workers don Mickey Mouse ears, learn the ukulele and teach Chinese kids. 

Most companies are outside Thailand and not professional. Why would the DoL want to deal with this hassle? 

[rwdrwdrwd]

22 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

Delusion at it's best, billions of dollars from digital nomads. 

If they made so much they could afford to setup a company and be legal.

Yeah, because people who are good at maximising income tend to seek out opportunities to throw their money and time away, don't they ????

Only takes 1000 people spending 85k a month to hit the first billion. Easily done, I know numerous people that hit the demographic in question spending triple that figure.

Edited March 30, 2020 by rwdrwdrwd

[cms22]

Can't help wondering, what about working online with a marriage visa in Thailand. Is that OK?

[SS1]

4 minutes ago, cms22 said:

Can't help wondering, what about working online with a marriage visa in Thailand. Is that OK?

If you have a work permit (which is possible on that visa) sure. If not, it is the same grey area as any other type of visa without a WP. I actually used this specific example when asking the labour dept in the seminar I attended. 

"What if a British man works remotely for a London-based software company, whilst living in Thailand with his Thai wife on a marriage visa". The answer was: this is a grey area and we cannot give an official answer. 

[FritsSikkink]

3 hours ago, rwdrwdrwd said:

Yeah, because people who are good at maximising income tend to seek out opportunities to throw their money and time away, don't they ????

Only takes 1000 people spending 85k a month to hit the first billion. Easily done, I know numerous people that hit the demographic in question spending triple that figure.

So why don't they get legal, get a proper visa and pay their taxes here?

[rwdrwdrwd]

9 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

So why don't they get legal, get a proper visa and pay their taxes here?

For exactly the reason I alluded to in the first paragraph of the comment you quoted.

What's a "proper visa" anyway? And why are you assuming that they can't pay taxes without having a registered Thai business?

It's somewhat amusing that your vitriolic stance against people that happen to earn income online from abroad has managed to remain intact for at least the last six years.

Edited March 30, 2020 by rwdrwdrwd

[impulse]

On 3/28/2020 at 3:28 AM, drbeach said:

There is a company that can employ digital nomads and offer work permits but you have to fork over 30% of your income to them.

 

That sound like a lot, but what are the expenses (including taxes) of any other legitimate method?  Does that WP and associated 30% put you into the Thai social security system with health care?   What would you pay just in taxes on that income if you were paid in Thailand (or even back home if you're American or Aussie)?  How much would your company have to pay the 4 Thai employees required if you went the route of doing it through a company you opened for the purpose of getting a WP?

 

To be honest, I don't know the answer, or whether that 30% claim is accurate, or what is included...  But before dismissing the concept because of "30%" you need to delve a little deeper and find out what they do for that fee. 

 

[ubonjoe]

I see not reason to keep this topic open. The same thing has been discussed in dozens of topics for over a decade.

This topic is now