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Ivermectin: Yes, No or Maybe


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On 12/17/2020 at 11:22 AM, Time to grow said:

For those still in denial that Ivermectin is a viable and likely superior prophylactic to experimental vaccines.

 

 

Well done on taking the time to bring this to peoples attention. As much as the other guy was trying to discredit you with mumbo jumbo the evidence and data is out there for Ivermectin. If he is happy to stand inline for an untried-untested vaccine then let him be a guinea pig. Like you I know which I will be using if push comes to a shove. Keep up the good work.

 

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On 12/17/2020 at 11:22 AM, Time to grow said:

For those still in denial that Ivermectin is a viable and likely superior prophylactic to experimental vaccines.

 

Takeway quote from this "video".

 

 

"Of course, more research should be done."

 

 

Look, if you want to take Ivermectin please feel free to do so.

 

But why spend so much time convincing other people to take it?

 

Quite frankly you seem obsessed with foisting this unproven (it is a treament? is it a prohylaxis? it's two mints in one?) "medicine" on others? Why? 

 

Maybe treat yourself first, then let us know how it works out for you?

 

I understand that many are afraid, and when people are afraid they do stupid things. And that's OK if they're only harming themselves.

 

Again, I'm amazed the forum/mods allow all this sort of disinformation to be posted here.

 

 

 

Now if your pet has a parasite maybe see a Vet?

 

 

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6 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

But why spend so much time convincing other people to take it?

 

Quite frankly you seem obsessed with foisting this unproven (it is a treament? is it a prohylaxis? it's two mints in one?) "medicine" on others? Why? 

 

You have completely misconstrued this conversation. The conversation started off with me asking the OP if he/she knew where I could find Ivermectin for myself. As shown below:

 

On 12/6/2020 at 3:59 PM, Time to grow said:

Did you ever find it? I can only find veterinary products and the pharmacies wont order it.

 

At that point in the conversation, several unqualified individuals, you being one of them, began to attack the veracity of the science, the validity of the data, and my personal choice with their own medical advice and bloviating nonsense. As demonstrated below:

 

On 12/7/2020 at 1:21 AM, partington said:

So: taking doses shown to be safe in humans would have no effect on the virus, and to reach blood concentrations that would have an effect on the virus would require taking doses that have never been shown to be safe in humans, and that current knowledge suggests could begin to affect biochemical processes essential for health.

 

In fact, I clearly stated that I was interested in finding Ivermectin for "myself". Unfortunately, I fell victim to feel the need to defend my position. 

 

On 12/7/2020 at 6:58 AM, Time to grow said:

I am not here to sell Ivermectin but form my perspective, it is a clear choice "for me" over an unknown, revolutionary new technology in the form of mRNA vaccines. There are no peer reviewed studies on the safety of mRNA vaccines. Only sales brochures written by convicted fraudsters, lying politicians, and a dishonest media.

 

Ivermectin is a well tolerated drug. It has a long history of data to prove efficacy and safety. It is inexpensive and widely available (except in Thailand).

 

No one is recommending excessive dosing. These studies were conducted with the standard recommended dose.

 

Again, I am not trying to convince you that Ivermectin is the preferred treatment for all. Simply to correct your assessment that there are no studies and if there were, they are recommending excessive dosing.

 

As the previous posts demonstrate, this conversation is not about me trying to sell Ivermectin to anyone but if fact, about you and some others trying to discredit the drug, the scientists, the data, and me. Be my guest, it's not as if you have any credibility left in the face of such compelling evidence, bloviate to your hearts content.

 

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1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

Providing there are no serious side effects I can't see why this approved drug shouldn't be used on sick patients.  This is an emergency situation.  It could be as effective as dexamethasone in reducing fatalities.

Ivermectin certainly has side effects. They may not be especially serious or common but there are certainly a lot, lot more of them than for almost any properly tested and non-experimental vaccine (which covers the currently available CoVid-19 vaccines).

 

Don't get me wrong, I think that a ivermectin is a very promising drug, based on various scientific research papers that I've read and I firmly believe it's worthy of additional testing on an expedited basis.

 

But to imply that almost any therapeutic drug is better than a vaccine at preventing a viral infection   - and carries less risk) is just not a valid scientific standpoint (IMHO).

 

With a drug like ivermectin, you would have to take it repeatedly and indefinitely (so long as Covid is still around) to get an unknown level of protection.

 

Whereas with just two shots of an effective CoVid-19 vaccine, the data shows you are 100% protected against serious illness or death and 70 - 95% protected against getting sick at all.

 

We also don't yet know the optimal dosage for safe and effective use of ivermectin as a CoVid-19 prophylactic, nor as mentioned, its percentage efficacy (that's why more studies are needed) but we do know that its side effects are much more numerous than the vaccines' side effects.

 

Here's an extract from an FDA warning for people not to self-medicate with ivermectin, giving some precautions and listing some of the potential side effects.

 

"dizziness

loss of appetite

nausea

vomiting

stomach pain or bloating

diarrhea

constipation

weakness

sleepiness

uncontrollable shaking of a part of the body

chest discomfort

[...]

Some side effects can be serious. If you experience any of these symptoms, call your doctor immediately:

 

fever

blistering or peeling skin

rash

hives

itching

 

Ivermectin may cause other side effects."

 

Once again, I think ivermectin looks promising and deserves more study but as it stands, and based on the available scientific information, I would have to say the vaccines are much, much better established as an effective and safe option.

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1 hour ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Ivermectin certainly has side effects. They may not be especially serious or common but there are certainly a lot, lot more of them than for almost any properly tested and non-experimental vaccine (which covers the currently available CoVid-19 vaccines).

 

Don't get me wrong, I think that a ivermectin is a very promising drug, based on various scientific research papers that I've read and I firmly believe it's worthy of additional testing on an expedited basis.

 

But to imply that almost any therapeutic drug is better than a vaccine at preventing a viral infection   - and carries less risk) is just not a valid scientific standpoint (IMHO).

 

With a drug like ivermectin, you would have to take it repeatedly and indefinitely (so long as Covid is still around) to get an unknown level of protection.

 

Whereas with just two shots of an effective CoVid-19 vaccine, the data shows you are 100% protected against serious illness or death and 70 - 95% protected against getting sick at all.

 

We also don't yet know the optimal dosage for safe and effective use of ivermectin as a CoVid-19 prophylactic, nor as mentioned, its percentage efficacy (that's why more studies are needed) but we do know that its side effects are much more numerous than the vaccines' side effects.

 

Here's an extract from an FDA warning for people not to self-medicate with ivermectin, giving some precautions and listing some of the potential side effects.

 

"dizziness

loss of appetite

nausea

vomiting

stomach pain or bloating

diarrhea

constipation

weakness

sleepiness

uncontrollable shaking of a part of the body

chest discomfort

[...]

Some side effects can be serious. If you experience any of these symptoms, call your doctor immediately:

 

fever

blistering or peeling skin

rash

hives

itching

 

Ivermectin may cause other side effects."

 

Once again, I think ivermectin looks promising and deserves more study but as it stands, and based on the available scientific information, I would have to say the vaccines are much, much better established as an effective and safe option.

 

It is an approved drug, and seriously ill covid patients don't have the time to wait.  One sometimes has to gamble in these situations.

 

If we took your viewpoint then dexamethasone would never have been discovered as an effective treatment.

 

Besides, all medicines I have taken can have marked side effects. If it was that dangerous, it would have been withdrawn, surely.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Time to grow said:

 

Thank you for your permission. As it turns out, I now have a supply of Ivermectin for myself or those I care about should it become necessary.

Can I ask what you paid if it came from a hospital?

 

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1 hour ago, rabas said:

Can I ask what you paid if it came from a hospital?

 

I should have mentioned, as an added bonus, the distributor included four Cialis tablets for free. I am not sure if they were implying I should go get <deleted>@ked or offering a backup plan in the event the Ivermectin doesn't work.

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On 4/3/2020 at 9:16 PM, ThailandRyan said:

Unfortunately when the druggies could not get their fixes from the hospitals, they turned to using animal tranquilizers and stuff they could buy from the pet stores.  Pretty much the same just the dosages are different, and the name slightly different.

'druggies get their fix from hospitals'!  Ha Ha. Ketamine is part of an array of party drugs used by recreational drug users

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On 1/5/2021 at 2:21 PM, mommysboy said:

It is an approved drug, and seriously ill covid patients don't have the time to wait.  One sometimes has to gamble in these situations.

 

If we took your viewpoint then dexamethasone would never have been discovered as an effective treatment.

 

Besides, all medicines I have taken can have marked side effects. If it was that dangerous, it would have been withdrawn, surely.

I already said it's very promising and deserves expedited study - the question, as raised by the poster I was replying to, was whether, as it stands, it would be safer for a person to take ivermectin or an approved CoVid-19 vaccine in order to avoid infection with the SARS-CoV-2 virus.

 

My opinion is that with the current level of scientific evidence, a vaccine is the safer and more efficacious choice of those two options.

 

Let me point out that I am not opposed to testing or even the use of ivermectin as a treatment for people who are already ill, (partly because I do accept that it is relatively safe, as far as drugs go) but it certainly isn't safer for someone who isn't sick yet than the current vaccines, which the evidence shows have fewer and milder side effects than ivermectin.

 

To sum up, what I'm saying is that overall, based on the scientific evidence I've seen, I just don't believe we have enough data yet to say that ivermectin is either a better or a safer option than a vaccine as a prophylactic measure.

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4 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

I already said it's very promising and deserves expedited study - the question, as raised by the poster I was replying to, was whether, as it stands, it would be safer for a person to take ivermectin or an approved CoVid-19 vaccine in order to avoid infection with the SARS-CoV-2 virus.

 

The issue is, with those studies costing in the hundreds of millions of dollars, and no profit to be made on a relatively cheap, off patent drug, who is going to fund those studies?

 

Can you see how lobbying by Big Pharma has made it a non-starter?  Decades ago, when such research was government funded and carried out in government and university labs, maybe...  But intense lobbying has brought that government funding to a virtual halt.

 

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Just heard "Dr. Drew" (a celebrity doctor in the US) talking about Ivermectin after he's fallen ill with COVID (pretty bad). He says it's basically criminal that it's not getting recommendations by the medical establishment. Maybe it's not a conspiracy but there is probably profound and negligent corruption in the US insofar as they are refusing to engage with non-vaccine related treatments.

 

 

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6 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

He says it's basically criminal that it's not getting recommendations by the medical establishment.

I'm not sure why he's saying there aren't "recommendations by the medical establishment."

 

From what I see, there are plenty of such recommendations.

 

Probably the most prominent among them is an absolutely ringing endorsement from a large grouping of US doctors known as the Frontline COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance (FLCCC). Some might say (and indeed some have) that they are actually somewhat over-egging the pudding in their enthusiasm for this medication.

 

Here's a link to their FAQ page for ivermectin.

 

FLCCC FAQ on ivermectin

 

Just to give you a flavour, here's an extract from that page:

 

Quote

"More recently, profound anti-viral and anti-inflammatory properties of ivermectin have been identified. In COVID-19 specifically, studies show that one of its several anti-viral properties is that it strongly binds to the spike protein, keeping the virus from entering the cell. These effects, along with its multiple abilities to control inflammation, both explains the markedly positive trial results already reported and poises ivermectin to again achieve similar historic impacts via the eradication of COVID-19."

 

A quick Google search also finds a large number of doctors and groups of doctors, recommending the use of ivermectin and/or additional studies on is effects.

Edited by GroveHillWanderer
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3 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

A quick Google search also finds a large number of doctors and groups of doctors, recommending the use of ivermectin and/or additional studies on is effects.

Surely. He wanted the official endorsement of the government though, so that would be the NIH and the CDC.

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On 1/6/2021 at 3:30 PM, GroveHillWanderer said:

I already said it's very promising and deserves expedited study - the question, as raised by the poster I was replying to, was whether, as it stands, it would be safer for a person to take ivermectin or an approved CoVid-19 vaccine in order to avoid infection with the SARS-CoV-2 virus.

 

My opinion is that with the current level of scientific evidence, a vaccine is the safer and more efficacious choice of those two options.

 

Let me point out that I am not opposed to testing or even the use of ivermectin as a treatment for people who are already ill, (partly because I do accept that it is relatively safe, as far as drugs go) but it certainly isn't safer for someone who isn't sick yet than the current vaccines, which the evidence shows have fewer and milder side effects than ivermectin.

 

To sum up, what I'm saying is that overall, based on the scientific evidence I've seen, I just don't believe we have enough data yet to say that ivermectin is either a better or a safer option than a vaccine as a prophylactic measure.

What data do we have on the vaccines and the possible side effects.Its a case of spin the wheel. However a new experimental vaccine. Ill pass for now.

 

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On 1/6/2021 at 6:20 PM, partington said:

Ph.D Cell Biology London University (Imperial  College), 30 years as research biologist, first for Medical Research Council UK, then in a number of biotech companies, 4 years on editorial review board of Biochemical Journal as an anonymous peer reviewer, 32 published papers in peer reviewed journals, plus number of reviews and invited lectures.

 

I was until retirement a competent mid-grade medical scientist, neither a star nor a chimp.

But your not a virologist correct?

 

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On 4/3/2020 at 9:15 PM, spiekerjozef said:

Wonder how much a dose would cost now?

https://covid19criticalcare.com/

 

These are the doctors who have been testing Ivermectin as well as compiling worldwide research on it. You can buy here in Thailand for about 100 baht per 6mg tab. I've been taking it. My dose is 18mg, as it is calculated by weight. According to the US docs on that website you dose on day one, day three and then every two weeks. 

 

The doc says if you take it, you will not get it...Covid 19. 

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1 minute ago, SaamBaht said:

https://covid19criticalcare.com/

 

These are the doctors who have been testing Ivermectin as well as compiling worldwide research on it. You can buy here in Thailand for about 100 baht per 6mg tab. I've been taking it. My dose is 18mg, as it is calculated by weight. According to the US docs on that website you dose on day one, day three and then every two weeks. 

 

The doc says if you take it, you will not get it...Covid 19. 

Very interesting. Is it widely available?

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42 minutes ago, potters said:

But your not a virologist correct?

 

Yes you're absolutely correct. 

 

(The post in which I mentioned being a scientist was about the misunderstanding by another poster on what exactly peer review meant, and that papers published on online pre print servers are not waiting for those online servers to peer review them. A topic not related to virology, but how scientific research is actually performed and reviewed.)

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15 hours ago, potters said:

What data do we have on the vaccines and the possible side effects.Its a case of spin the wheel. However a new experimental vaccine. Ill pass for now.

 

 

Attenuated and recombinant vaccines are well researched and have been deployed for decades.  I think it's more than reasonable to assume safety, having once completed safety trials.

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