NO AUTOMATIC EXTENSION for people with covid extension

[DrJack54]

If my yearly extension (retirement) was due in April, I would be 100% off to immigration this month. 

[jackdd]

2 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

If my yearly extension (retirement) was due in April, I would be 100% off to immigration this month. 

This is also what i would recommend, but just because now the immigration offices are empty, not because they have to do it.

[Tanoshi]

12 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Yes, this would be the case.

Good argument to show that he is wrong.

An alien entering either VE, VOA, Tv, or Non O would never be required to submit 90 day reports/

 

Section 2.2 relates to only those who would be required under normal circumstances to submit 90 day reports, but are now exempt under the order, until further notice.

[jackdd]

4 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

An alien entering either VE, VOA, Tv, or Non O would never be required to submit 90 day reports/

 

Section 2.2 relates to only those who would be required under normal circumstances to submit 90 day reports, but are now exempt under the order, until further notice.

You are arguing that the red part is only relevant for the green part, but not for the blue part.

[Tanoshi]

6 minutes ago, jackdd said:

This is also what i would recommend, but just because now the immigration offices are empty, not because they have to do it.

Why? According to your interpretation your entitled to automatic extensions.

[ubonjoe]

13 minutes ago, jackdd said:

This is also what i would recommend, but just because now the immigration offices are empty, not because they have to do it.

That means the intent of the order is working. They only want people who would normally be at a immigration office to be there.

Those on long term extensions would only be going to immigration office for their extension and 90 day reports and are not in the group mentioned here as the reason for the order.

[Tanoshi]

2 minutes ago, jackdd said:

You are arguing that the red part is only relevant for the green part, but not for the blue part.

No, that's what you believe.

[BritTim]

1 minute ago, DrJack54 said:

If my yearly extension (retirement) was due in April, I would be 100% off to immigration this month. 

... and that is clearly what those who drafted the order hoped.

 

However, there are good reasons for concluding that was not the intent of the cabinet and the prime minister. Leaving aside the fact that the embassies have been assured that embassy letters are not required any more, let's look at part of the English translation (my logical point is not relying on fine points of translation)

Quote

2. For an alien who has been permitted a temporary stay in the Kingdom according to their type of visa (including Visa on Arrival) and an alien who has been permitted a temporary stay in the Kingdom according to their visa exemption privileges (P. 30/PP. 14/ PP. 30/PP. 90) whose specified period of time permitted for stay in the Kingdom expires as from 26 March B.E. 2563 (2020):

 

(1) the period of time permitted for stay in the Kingdom under Section 35 of the Immigration Act B.E. 2522 (1979) (including under the Petroleum Act B.E. 2514 (1971) and its Amendments, the Investment Promotion Act B.E. 2520 (1977) and its Amendments, and the Industrial Estate Authority of Thailand Act B.E. 2522 (1979) and its Amendments) or in accordance with the relevant notifications of the Ministry of Interior, shall be temporarily extended as from 26 March B.E. 2563 (2020) to 30 April B.E. 2563 (2020);

 

(2) the period of time for the notification of residence under Section 37 (5) of the Immigration Act B.E. 2522 (1979) or in accordance with the relevant notifications of the Ministry of Interior, upon the completion of the period of time for the notification of residence for such alien, shall be extended as from 26 March B.E. 2563 (2020) to 30 April B.E. 2563 (2020);

Can we agree that (i) those permitted temporary stay are accorded the amnesties under both (1) and (2); and (ii) the need to file 90-day reports would only apply to those on long term extensions or one-year permissions to stay? To me, it is clear this shows that those on long term extensions are included.

 

As others have pointed out, if those on long term extensions were really to be deliberately excluded, the order would say so unless the whole intent was to deceive.

 

What the PM intended was that this apply both to those who entered with visas, and those who entered visa exempt with no exceptions. Frankly, the officials who deliberately obfuscated this in the order are playing a dangerous game.

[jackdd]

7 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

No, that's what you believe.

So the red part applies to the green and the blue part?

If it were as you say, that the red part doesn't cover for example OA visa holders, then they are not exempt of 90 day reports, yes?

 

7 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That means the intent of the order is working. They only want people who would normally be at a immigration office to be there.

Those on long term extensions would only be going to immigration office for their extension and 90 day reports and are not the group mentioned here as the reason for the order.

"including the stay within the Kingdom", people on extensions are not staying within the Kingdom?

And as i said before, this is only the introduction part, this part doesn't tell anybody what to do. The orders come after this part.

Edited April 13, 2020 by jackdd

[ubonjoe]

8 minutes ago, jackdd said:

And as i said before, this is only the introduction part, this part doesn't tell anybody what to do. The orders come after this part.

That is not a introduction for it. It is the justification for the order.

[johnny1966]

Following confirmation from two immigration officers at cw today that non o multi holders whose 90 day permission to stay expires after march 26 ARE covered under the Amnesty, I personally will not be doing a 60 day extension with the Mrs until the Amnesty ends. What I don't know, and perhaps of minor importance, is do I need to go there and submit an updated tm30 now or can this wait until I do the extension at the end of the Amnesty?

[Tanoshi]

4 minutes ago, jackdd said:

So the red part applies to the green part?

If it were as you say, that the red part doesn't cover for example OA visa holders, then they are not exempt of 90 day reports, yes?

They are 3 separate parts, numbered accordingly.

 

5 minutes ago, jackdd said:

"including the stay within the Kingdom", people on extensions are not staying within the Kingdom?

And as i said before, this is only the introduction part, this part doesn't tell anybody what to do. The orders come after this part.

If you've ben granted permission of stay for 365 days then your 'staying' in the Kingdom.

You are by definition a 'resident, not a 'visitor'

A person who lives somewhere permanently, or on a long term basis.

[jackdd]

3 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

If you've ben granted permission of stay for 365 days then your 'staying' in the Kingdom.

You are by definition a 'resident, not a 'visitor'

A person who lives somewhere permanently, or on a long term basis.

But not by definition of Thai immigration law, which is the only relevant definition here.

Thai immigration law makes this quite easy, a foreigner is easier a "permanent resident" or a "temporary visitor".

Edited April 13, 2020 by jackdd

[superal]

4 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That is not a introduction for it. It is the justification for the order.

Hi Joe , could you answer the following please .

 

I have a non o m/e visa based on my UK state pension ( POI not needed but have to leave the country every 90 days ), visa ends June extendable to September . 

Cannot go border runs , extension letter from UK embassy on 31st March , pp stamped 14th April when I have to do an interim report . 

I assume that my pp will be stamped till the 29th April . Will the process repeat itself and another 1900 baht which seems unjust as normally that covers 90 days . Will I need another embassy letter ?  

[ubonjoe]

20 minutes ago, jackdd said:

So the red part applies to the green and the blue part?

If it were as you say, that the red part doesn't cover for example OA visa holders, then they are not exempt of 90 day reports, yes?

 

"including the stay within the Kingdom", people on extensions are not staying within the Kingdom?

And as i said before, this is only the introduction part, this part doesn't tell anybody what to do. The orders come after this part.

It depends upon how your read "including the stay within the Kingdom". An easy way to to make it clear is to change "the stay" to their stay within the Kingdom. 

[Tanoshi]

9 minutes ago, superal said:

Will the process repeat itself and another 1900 baht which seems unjust as normally that covers 90 days . Will I need another embassy letter ?  

No, you should then be entitled to automatic extensions until such time as announced otherwise.

[BritTim]

11 minutes ago, superal said:

Hi Joe , could you answer the following please .

 

I have a non o m/e visa based on my UK state pension ( POI not needed but have to leave the country every 90 days ), visa ends June extendable to September . 

Cannot go border runs , extension letter from UK embassy on 31st March , pp stamped 14th April when I have to do an interim report . 

I assume that my pp will be stamped till the 29th April . Will the process repeat itself and another 1900 baht which seems unjust as normally that covers 90 days . Will I need another embassy letter ?  

You must attend Immigration to have your "under consideration" extension confirmed. After that, your permission to stay will be automatically extended until the current emergency conditions cease.

[Tanoshi]

37 minutes ago, jackdd said:

But not by definition of Thai immigration law, which is the only relevant definition here.

Can't argue with that, it's as I previously stated.

The definition of the law is decided by an Immigration officer on entry.

 

37 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Thai immigration law makes this quite easy, a foreigner is easier a "permanent resident" or a "temporary visitor".

Well, I'd say permanent resident, or granted temporary permission of stay, which can vary from a short stay as in Tourist, to someone who stays permanently throughout the year.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Tanoshi

[jackdd]

46 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

It depends upon how your read "including the stay within the Kingdom". An easy way to to make it clear is to change "the stay" to their stay within the Kingdom. 

Changing what the ministerial order allegedly says just so that it matches your opinion might be an "easy way" for you, but it's just wrong.

The translation is quite good, it clearly says "including the stay within the Kingdom" and not "their stay within the Kingdom".

[DrJack54]

Enough! For the folk that want simple advice. You did a standard extension to a visa exempt or tourist visa etc and it expired after March 26. Do nothing. Also don't worry the amnesty will be extended.

For those that obtained 2nd (covid) extension and have under consideration stamp that perhaps has return back date in April then attend immigration. 

For those with current annual extensions that do not require you exit Los, one example, annual extension based on retirement then attend immigration on the date you would normally. Including right now.

 

[vermin on arrival]

Just found out that MTT is now closed. People in BKK should return to CW.

[Maestro]

6 hours ago, jackdd said:

Changing what the ministerial order allegedly says just so that it matches your opinion might be an "easy way" for you, but it's just wrong.

The translation is quite good, it clearly says "including the stay within the Kingdom" and not "their stay within the Kingdom".

 

If you want to nitpick, do so in the Thai language forum using the original Thai text of the Ministerial Notification.

 

It you wish to discuss English grammar in depth, there is no forum for it on ThaiVisa and you need to look elsewhere on the world-wide web and be sure to quote the entire text to which "their" refers, ie "the stay in the Kingdom of certain groups of aliens" (hint: it is like saying "the book of Jack" and subsequently referring to "his book"

 

This is the end of the discussion of "including the stay within the Kingdom" on this forum.

[Maestro]

Thank you, ubonjoe and BritTim, for the links to the two English translations of the Ministerial order of 7 April 2020. Because I find it easier to copy and paste text from a text-searchable file than from an image, I shall be using the translation I downloaded from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Perhaps immigration officials will also use this translation if they need to refer to the English text in a discussion with a foreigner.

[Maestro]

There has been an animated discussion here about the types of visas that qualify for the automatic extension. This is one of the times when it is essential to get the terminology right.

 

This Ministerial Notification is not about visa extensions, is about permissions to stay, about all permissions to stay in Thailand temporarily with expiration dates of 26 March 2020 and later, without any limitation or exception, regardless whether the permission to stay is or was issued at the time of entering Thailand or subsequently extended at an immigration office.

[Maestro]

Normally, when the Ministry of Interior issues a notification that that requires action by immigration offices, the Immigration Bureau sends a memorandum to the offices with instructions or guidelines and it is this memorandum with which the immigration officials work.

 

Such memorandum is for internal circulation within the immigration department but occasionally is made accessible to the public on the website of the Immigration Bureau. I wonder if a memorandum was issued also for the implementation of the Ministerial Notification of 7 April and what it says in detail.

[Kingjamo808]

My 1st visa extension expires on April 17th,  but I was stupid and went early to immigration for the covid extension...I recieved the considerstion stamp to go back on april 20th. I'm just going to go on the 20th and it sounds like they will either give me a new stamp thay would then include me in the amnesty program or tell me to go home. 

 

Will post my experience.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Kingjamo808

[ubonjoe]

4 hours ago, Maestro said:

There has been an animated discussion here about the types of visas that qualify for the automatic extension. This is one of the times when it is essential to get the terminology right.

It all started from a claim that all permit to stays came under the order and that included those already on a long stay extension of stay.

It is evident that does it is does not apply to those and there has been a topic posed by a member applying for their one year extension yesterday with no questions asked or immigration telling them it was not required.

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1159381-chaeng-wattana-report/

 

[jackdd]

5 hours ago, Maestro said:

There has been an animated discussion here about the types of visas that qualify for the automatic extension. This is one of the times when it is essential to get the terminology right.

Yes, exactly. This is the reason why i was pointing out that ubonjoe was changing the meaning of the translation into one which doesn't match the original Thai version.

 

5 hours ago, Maestro said:

This Ministerial Notification is not about visa extensions, is about permissions to stay, about all permissions to stay in Thailand temporarily with expiration dates of 26 March 2020 and later, without any limitation or exception, regardless whether the permission to stay is or was issued at the time of entering Thailand or subsequently extended at an immigration office.

This is what i'm saying, but some members including ubonjoe disagree with this view.

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by jackdd

[Tanoshi]

5 hours ago, Maestro said:

This Ministerial Notification is not about visa extensions, is about permissions to stay, about all permissions to stay in Thailand temporarily with expiration dates of 26 March 2020 and later, without any limitation or exception, regardless whether the permission to stay is or was issued at the time of entering Thailand or subsequently extended at an immigration office.

Agree the notification is about 'permission of stay'.

All foreigners are granted temporary  'permissions of stay' be it 30 days or 365 days.

 

The notification clearly refers to 'Permission for Certain Groups of Aliens to Remain in the Kingdom as a Special Case' (not all Groups). The debate has centred around which groups are defined as special cases.

 

In particular this statement;

2. For an alien who has been permitted a temporary stay in the Kingdom according to their type of visa (including Visa on Arrival) and an alien who has been permitted a temporary stay in the Kingdom according to their visa exemption privileges (P. 30/PP. 14/ PP. 30/PP. 90) whose specified period of time permitted for stay in the Kingdom expires as from 26 March B.E. 2563 (2020)

 

This appears to define the special cases as defined by their Visa type as being limited to granted 'permission of stay' up to a maximum of 90 days. 

That appears to therefore exclude those who have been granted temporary permission of stay for 1 year.

 

Indeed if the notification applied to all foreigners granted 'temporary permission of stay' why would it refer to 'certain groups' and not 'all groups', thereby eliminating the required statement as in 2.

 

The debate is clearly about 'which' groups are classed as special cases.

Perhaps you'd like to clarify which groups your referring to.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Tanoshi

[essox essox]

reading most of the comments about visa extentions.....it seems to me that people can not believe what they are reading/believe what they have read, 

as it is an important issue then things need to be clarified by someone in high authority to eas peoples minds !!!