A Question About Temple Rituals

[pazza]

During my holidays in Thailand (and Lao) I have visited many temples, sometimes the ladies I had been on holiday with had encouraged me to take part in some of the activities in the temple such as lighting candles and bowing etc.

In the past I had gone along with these activities as part of my holiday experience, but, now I have a Thai girlfriend and intend to live in Thailand (and also on the advice of some TV members (thanks) ) I have broadened my knowledge of Buddhism (slightly) and some of the Thai traditions (again slightly).

My question is, can someone explain to me the reasons behind these (lighting candles etc) rituals (in the temples) and, as a farang, should I even be copying these actions, I do intend looking into taking up Buddhism when I am in Thailand full time.

I hope one of the enlightened members can help in my quest for knowledge.

Thanks in advance

Steve

[chownah]

Making a really broad generalization I'll say that there are two aspects to Buddhism in Thailand. One is based on the Theravadan Buddhist texts which report what the Buddha taught, and the other is based on rituals which are performed at Thai temples and which have very little base in the Buddha's teachings. Some people follow one and some the other and some follow some aspects of both.

Which do you think you are? Do you study and try to follow the Buddha's teachings?...or are you not interested in studying the Buddha's teachings and want to follow temple ritual?...or do you want to do both.

If you want to follow the Buddha's teachings only then there is probably no reason to do most temple rituals, depending, of course on your interpretation of the Buddha's teacings. If you want to follow temple rituals then you should learn about them and this can be done almost totallly independently of the Buddha's teachings. If you want some of both then learning from both sides is what you will want.

As far as whether it is appropriate for foreigners to do temple ritual: Thai people (in my experience) like having foreigners come to their temples and for them to perform the things that everyone does there....so it just depends on your view of it.

Chownah

[sutnyod]

There is another aspect to rituals: by participating you send a message. That can be that you know how to behave, but also that you belong. Just observe what people do who do not observe rituals: the odd Farang that remains seated in the cinema before they show the film, people that don't bow to Buddha images. There is a strange feeling when something like this happens... However, there is also a way to overdo it. While I find it no problem to bow before monks or Buddha statues, I don't "wai" when I pass by a shrine, like so many Thais do. Would feel awkward to me and people would realize that.

[bankei]

A Tibetan Lama once said that these sorts of rituals are old Indian customs. When a visitor was received at someone's house, incence was lit to make a pleasant aroma, water was given to quench their first and flowers were presented etc. He said the Buddha was once asked how he should be received and he answered like a guest, and that is how the tradition started. Don't know if this is necessarily true, but is a nice story.

I too wrestle with the Dilema of how much to participate in these sorts of things. I have been with plenty of Thai's who just run around to temples lighting candles and incense etc. These Thais consider themselves devout, but I think they over do it sometimes and cannot see the point.

Bankei

[sabaijai]

A Tibetan Lama once said that these sorts of rituals are old Indian customs. When a visitor was received at someone's house, incence was lit to make a pleasant aroma, water was given to quench their first and flowers were presented etc. He said the Buddha was once asked how he should be received and he answered like a guest, and that is how the tradition started. Don't know if this is necessarily true, but is a nice story.

Nice story.

[pazza]

A Tibetan Lama once said that these sorts of rituals are old Indian customs. When a visitor was received at someone's house, incence was lit to make a pleasant aroma, water was given to quench their first and flowers were presented etc. He said the Buddha was once asked how he should be received and he answered like a guest, and that is how the tradition started. Don't know if this is necessarily true, but is a nice story.

Nice story.

Yes nice story and answers some of my question, is there anybody else out there with any more helpful info.

For example when kneeling and lighting candles etc do they say a prayer or say something to their ancestors.

When washing the feet of the elders (I know its not just foot hygiene) why is it done, and is it only done to your families elders or all the elders within a certain radius.

I know that when I live in Thailand I will probably learn all these things in time but having the answers now will mean I make less mistakes in the future.

I am grateful to the people who have already put me straight on a few things (traditions) already and look forward to learning more.

Steve

[bankei]

Hi Steve

When kneeling, some Thais chanting a few standard phrases like the namo tassa bhagavato... and the three refuges, Buddham saranam gacchami........ Then some chant some other short phrases that they may have memorised.

Some Thais will then even pray to the Buddha as a god and ask for help in worldly matters such as work, money etc

I don't think people pray to their ancestors, but they may often dedicate merit to dead ancestors - this is fairly common I think.

As for the feet, I think it is a show and respect or devotion. Feet are considered dirtly in Thailand, so cleaning someone elses filthy feet is something one would not normally do, unless their is great repsect. I have seen monks do this for respected senior monks

[pazza]

Is there any significance in the number of candles you light or (I don't know what they are called so I will call them) joss sticks used, or is that up to the individual.

Also, is it just women that have to sit lower than the monks or does that apply to men as well, and where do farangs fit in to the scheme of things.

I know women cannot touch a monk but can a man touch a monk (for example sitting on a bus)???

(I have to many questions I know)

Steve

[camerata]

Is there any significance in the number of candles you light or (I don't know what they are called so I will call them) joss sticks used, or is that up to the individual.

Normally it is three. The traditional symbolism is that they represent the "Triple Gem" (aka the Three Refuges): the Buddha, the Dhamma (teachings), and the Sangha (monastics).

Also, is it just women that have to sit lower than the monks or does that apply to men as well, and where do farangs fit in to the scheme of things.

Everyone should sit lower than monks, even farang.

I know women cannot touch a monk but can a man touch a monk (for example sitting on a bus)???

Yes.

[Huw]

A Tibetan Lama once said that these sorts of rituals are old Indian customs. When a visitor was received at someone's house, incence was lit to make a pleasant aroma, water was given to quench their first and flowers were presented etc. He said the Buddha was once asked how he should be received and he answered like a guest, and that is how the tradition started. Don't know if this is necessarily true, but is a nice story.

I too wrestle with the Dilema of how much to participate in these sorts of things. I have been with plenty of Thai's who just run around to temples lighting candles and incense etc. These Thais consider themselves devout, but I think they over do it sometimes and cannot see the point.

Bankei

Unfortunately, many 'devout' Thais are only being devout for the sake of appearances. Once they are finished they go right back to where they left off. Many Thais want to appear 'devout' in order simply to attract good luck. Yet more are just acting out of habits they learned while young and would leave them feeling empty if abandoned. And then there are the (relatively few) really devout and really good people. These are the people worth knowing.

Same as every other religion.

H

[chinthee]

I too wrestle with the Dilema of how much to participate in these sorts of things. I have been with plenty of Thai's who just run around to temples lighting candles and incense etc. These Thais consider themselves devout, but I think they over do it sometimes and cannot see the point.

Bankei

Unfortunately, many 'devout' Thais are only being devout for the sake of appearances. Once they are finished they go right back to where they left off. Many Thais want to appear 'devout' in order simply to attract good luck. Yet more are just acting out of habits they learned while young and would leave them feeling empty if abandoned. And then there are the (relatively few) really devout and really good people. These are the people worth knowing.

Same as every other religion.

H

This is so true. Over the years in Thailand, I've attended all sorts of rituals at temples, funerals, etc.etc.. Initially, it was interesting and facinating, and I do admire and even practice Buddhism to some extent. However, I've always been disappointed with the cumbersomeness of all the rituals, and agree many people just go through the motions robotically, especially for luck. I was raised Catholic so I know a bit about rituals, but these take the cake.

Also, at one funeral in remote central Thailand of a distant relative to my wife, even though it wasn't an affluent family, they must have packed 70 monks or so into this all-day long, sweating, never-ending, complicated affair, and was told it cost them a not-so-small fortune. When I queried why, my Thai wife said "for face." Go figure. The social aspects of face, combined with cultural elements of good luck often makes these rituals appear much more meaningful than they actually are in practice.

[rahu07]

By lighting candles, we are actually doing merit making.

[JayBee]

I have done some searching on google and read this thread but still do not really understand the rituals in the temple and would apreciate some info if anyone knows- I recently went to a chinese budhist temple in china town and among other things lit incense and put three sticks in 5 different "bowls"- can anyone explain why? How does this give one merit? Also bought some oil and poured that into the pots that people light there incencse at- anyone can explain why?

Thanks!

JB

[chutai]

I have done some searching on google and read this thread but still do not really understand the rituals in the temple and would apreciate some info if anyone knows- I recently went to a chinese budhist temple in china town and among other things lit incense and put three sticks in 5 different "bowls"- can anyone explain why? How does this give one merit? Also bought some oil and poured that into the pots that people light there incencse at- anyone can explain why?

Thanks!

JB

I think that this has more to do with symbolism rather than making merit. But this depends on any persons sincerity. I know that in my own tradition that we imported lighting candles and burning incense from India some 200 years after the death of Nichiren Daishonin. I'm not sure where the idea of placing evergreen beside our altars (butsudans) came from though.

But certainly, each of those accompaniments has specific symbolic value. I would be suprised if in any Buddhist tradition that it wasn't also the case of being symbols, with no intrinsic value in themselves; other than to show a good heart in which making offerings for the sake of Buddhism is a way of planting “good roots” or accumulating merit and good fortune.

"The roots of good fortune are not determined by whether one’s offerings are large or small. Depending upon the country, the person, and the time, the merit gained will differ in various ways."

[Virin]

To understand Buddhism in Thailand, you should know some history of Thai culture, characters, community, etc. it has been developed and deviated in each location for long time. We couldn't separate temple from Thai society in the old days, temple was like a center of community for religion, education, entertainment (temple fair), so on, the monks were teacher (school in Thailand started from temples), spiritual supporter during war and peaceful time, etc. When we join temple activities, it's not just Buddhism, we're experiencing local traditions and many more, that's Thai life. Thai people have been influenced from Hinduism and Brahmanism since ancient time, but we have Dharma as the guideline, and each people follow this guideline differently. Dharma is universal, rituals fit for some, I don't agree with some issues but I wouldn't judge people like someone say "I'm vegetarian, I'm better than those who eat meat!!! . No one is perfect until they are fully enlightened.

[chutai]

To understand Buddhism in Thailand, you should know some history of Thai culture, characters, community, etc. it has been developed and deviated in each location for long time. We couldn't separate temple from Thai society in the old days, temple was like a center of community for religion, education, entertainment (temple fair), so on, the monks were teacher (school in Thailand started from temples), spiritual supporter during war and peaceful time, etc. When we join temple activities, it's not just Buddhism, we're experiencing local traditions and many more, that's Thai life.

All of the above still pertains to a greater or lesser extent ...depending. Many young men ordain in order to get a schooling that they otherwise wouldn't get. Read, Phra Farang - Little Angels, for instance. Also the local 'wat' still is the centre of the community in most places - which can even be found in and around the blatent tourist and fleshpot areas (although true, still more predominant in more rural and less exploited areas.)

But knowing of the outside cultural and religious influences on Thai Buddhism (or any other specific) doesn't negate the fact that offerings and rituals involving (particularly) candles , incense and water - have a greater symbolic value than otherwise.

It's in knowing the significance of such offerings and rituals that gives them any meaning and cultivates a heart of reverence. I don't believe it to be the case that engaging in such will, by any other means, create value or any external aid to inner transformation without knowing its symbolism : as is possible in chanting a mantra without understanding it's meaning -- which can act in a similar way as a baby suckling a mothers milk at first. Does the baby good but it doesn't know why. I think specifically of the chanting of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo and it's Sanskrit equivalent Aum-mani-padme-hum.

I think that this is more or less what the original question was asking.

[Virin]