Airbus calls in THAI debts for 30 rented jets

[realfunster]

Hmm. 
I have a reasonable amount of points on my ROP credit card, not yet transferred to my Thai ROP account. Time to transfer in before they change the rules ?

 

[crobe]

1 hour ago, smedly said:

we want our aircraft back if you don't settle the bill

The problem is that Thai would very much like to give back its aircraft to get out of the leasing fees and maintenance costs - I believe this will be one of the recommendations of the rehabilitation plan - the problem is that Airbus don't want these back - Air France today just immediately retired all of its A380s and want to send theirs back too.

Airbus have just put a stake in the ground for the bankruptcy court to try to get seniority of their debt against other creditors such as the banks and investment funds - however as most of these are Thai good luck to Airbus in getting priority over them.

Airbus (and Boeing) are going to be the biggest losers out of this - the airlines will continue with scaled down operations if the national governments deem them essential, but the aircraft manufacturers are hemorrhaging money, laying off personnel and any government bailouts for them will involve shedding a lot of lucrative business in areas such as defence and space. 

[fxe1200]

Everybody talks about Thai, but actually it shows the gross ineptitude of the Thai government to deal with this problem for five years. And the Thai folks and we pay for this with our taxes. The ingrained inability of the government is abhorrent.

[steven100]

I heard that the Airbus CEO has had to replace his desktop telephone 3 times due to the hand piece being smashed.

[Somtamnication]

Time to pay the piper!

[Oziex1]

30 planes or 53, or do they only want back rent for 30?

[TopDeadSenter]

4 hours ago, Andrew65 said:

Some years ago I remember reading that Thai had some leased B777's, cost, around $1 million per month each.

Think they lease these planes from a Guernsey reg company Amedeo Air 4+. Amedeo have been issuing RNS's as the situation unfolds with Thai airways impending bankruptcy.

[Cisco]

Much like running a country!

[crobe]

9 minutes ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Think they lease these planes from a Guernsey reg company Amedeo Air 4+. Amedeo have been issuing RNS's as the situation unfolds with Thai airways impending bankruptcy.

They only lease 4 A350s from Amadeo

 

Company update from Amedeo Air Four Plus (AA4):

“Further to the announcement on 12 March 2020, the board notes the news that almost all airlines globally have been severely impacted by the reduction in passenger traffic as a result of covid-19 and understands that many Governments, banks and lessors have received approaches from these airlines to discuss how they might support the industry.  Indeed, the company has, in line with this news, received a written approach from Thai Airways, to whom the company leases four A350s, to discuss how it might support them in this period. The board, together with its asset manager and other advisors, are discussing how the company might respond, and considering the terms of any such support.  Thai have assured the company that, as the flag carrier of Thailand, it fully commits to its obligations, and they are fully up-to-date with their payments to the company.  As and when these discussions reach any conclusions the board will update shareholders accordingly.”

[stupidfarang]

6 hours ago, colinneil said:

You cannot be serious with that comment, free flights have everything to do with Thai airways.

Not only staff getting freebies, but hundreds of hi-so cronies have been getting freebies.

 

What about the time the passenger in first class was kicked out of his seat, so a hi-so <deleted>, could sit there free?

I keep seeing people talking about people getting free flights, where is this information coming from? It would be good to see actual proof. I would not be surprised that it happens but I just like to see real proof and not just comments with no back up.

[herfiehandbag]

16 minutes ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Think they lease these planes from a Guernsey reg company Amedeo Air 4+. Amedeo have been issuing RNS's as the situation unfolds with Thai airways impending bankruptcy.

What is an RNS please? I'm afraid I struggle keeping track of my daughters pocket money!

[BobbyL]

And don't forget, according to Thai news last week, if it wasn't for the Coronavirus outbreak Airbus would have gone into partnership with THAI in a EEC venture ????.

 

I think we can all guess what Airbus must think in regards to THAI and the way it is ran. 

[JonnyF]

If Thai Airways was a dog, it would have been put out of it's misery years ago.

 

Now we're going to have to witness some kind of elaborate charade about restructuring and refinancing until the story slips off the front pages, at which point the government will go back on its word (again!) and bail them out.

 

There will be no coup.

I will not be the PM.

We won't bail out THAI.

 

Sure, we believe you.

[varun]

Despite the mostly good service I've experienced on Thai over the years, their day of reckoning is close at hand.

 

A bloated, inept and incompetent management team comprising of Somchai's and their merry band of cronies,

whose only concern was how to line their pockets.

 

All the free flights and contributions to the mia-noi fund do add up - good riddance.

 

This would be a perfect case study for business school - Principles of Mismanagement (Thai Style) 101

Edited May 21, 2020 by varun

[colinneil]

20 minutes ago, stupidfarang said:

I keep seeing people talking about people getting free flights, where is this information coming from? It would be good to see actual proof. I would not be surprised that it happens but I just like to see real proof and not just comments with no back up.

Surely your user name is a joke, it appears you do not keep up with the news !!

It was all over the news, when the first class passenger got move out of his seat, for the free loader to sit in first class.

[josephbloggs]

34 minutes ago, stupidfarang said:

I keep seeing people talking about people getting free flights, where is this information coming from? It would be good to see actual proof. I would not be surprised that it happens but I just like to see real proof and not just comments with no back up.

You won't get any.  Every time there's a Thai Airways thread the same people shriek about hi-sos blah blah blah and I always ask for evidence or a link or anything..........and nobody ever provides it.

[jayboy]

4 hours ago, Chelseafan said:

Free flights have nothing to do with it. Most airlines offer their personnel discounted/free perks,

 

If you look at the top-line management team, they are pretty much all ex-military. Inflexible, unable to think outside the box unimiagnative and used to following rules and procedures. They have very little experience of running a business let alone an airline and sadly this formula has been repeated time and time again.

 

What you need in any well run company is a respected management team who understand market dynamics and competition and are customer foccussed whilst also keeping a tight reign on the purse-strings.

 

They need to privatise the whole damned operation whilst keeping govermental noses out of the business. It will take years to turn it around but its the airlines best chance of success.

 

 

When you say management team, I assume you mean Board of Directors.It is a crucial distinction.

 

At present I don't believe there is the slightest intention of privatisation.There has been some talk of divesting part of government's shareholding to a state owned fund - but that is hardly a privatisation.Still these are unusual times and who knows what will emerge from the bankruptcy proceedings.The Thai establishment will do everything possible to keep the airline under government control, but that may not be possible.

 

Privatisation or not, the enormous challenge will be finding the right business model.It didn't work before the current pandemic, and that problem is now obviously compounded.There may not even be a solution.

 

Incidentally I disagree that TG is the same as all airlines on the free flights issue.I believe there is a particular culture of entitlement and arrogance on TG.It is one thing for flight crew to be resting up in Business Class or First Class, and quite another for a giggling and prancing cabin crew to be taking up seats which could have been sold to paying customers.When BA was a decent airline - 20 years ago - even the Chairman (Lord KIng) when travelling to New York would voluntarily retire to Economy Class if a paying customer was available for Business or First.Can you imagine  that happening on Thai Airways?

[wombat]

are these all the planes parked up @ Alice Springs?....

[josephbloggs]

24 minutes ago, colinneil said:

Surely your user name is a joke, it appears you do not keep up with the news !!

It was all over the news, when the first class passenger got move out of his seat, for the free loader to sit in first class.

So again you are not providing any evidence of the plague of the hi-sos filling up aircraft for free.

The incident you are probably referring to was the case of the two dead heading pilots bumping two passengers from first class.  Those two passengers had been upgraded (for free) from business class and refused to relinquish their new first class status. 

 

Due to a technical issue the aircraft was changed from a 777 to an old 747 which did not have a crew rest area for the dead headers to sleep in (and they needed their rest hours as they were back on duty after the flight) so they claimed the rules stated they must have a first class seat to sleep in as business class on the old 747 is not lie flat, hence asking the upgraded passengers to move which they refused to do so.

Did Thai handle the situation very poorly?  Yes.  Was it a PR disaster?  Yes.  Was it a paying first class passenger getting moved for a hi-so free loader?  Nope, not at all.  

Got any other "evidence"?

Edited May 21, 2020 by josephbloggs

[ThailandRyan]

1 hour ago, Cisco said:

Much like running a country!

Oh hell yes, just run it into the ground and take what you can stuff in your pockets before you leave the door open for the vultures to pick the bones clean...

[Rimmer]

15 minutes ago, wombat said:

are these all the planes parked up @ Alice Springs?....

Many are parked at Utapao you can see them from Sukhumvit Road as you drive by

[hotchilli]

5 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

It was only a matter of time before the house of cards came crashing down.  The government should never have bailed them out 5 years ago.  There will be a huge vacuum if they go under.  They may need to combine with another carrier and rebrand to survive. All I know is that there should never have been free flights for the executives or government officials. Like an American carrier they should be made to fly standby and not be put in business or first class over a fare paying customer.

With aviation in dire straits only the fittest and wisest will survive the next 2 years, some of the well known carriers will be going under as there will be more airlines than passengers.

[josephbloggs]

17 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

So again you are not providing any evidence of the plague of the hi-sos filling up aircraft for free.

The incident you are probably referring to was the case of the two dead heading pilots bumping two passengers from first class.  Those two passengers had been upgraded (for free) from business class and refused to relinquish their new first class status. 

 

Due to a technical issue the aircraft was changed from a 777 to an old 747 which did not have a crew rest area for the dead headers to sleep in (and they needed their rest hours as they were back on duty after the flight) so they claimed the rules stated they must have a first class seat to sleep in as business class on the old 747 is not lie flat, hence asking the upgraded passengers to move which they refused to do so.

Did Thai handle the situation very poorly?  Yes.  Was it a PR disaster?  Yes.  Was it a paying first class passenger getting moved for a hi-so free loader?  Nope, not at all.  

Got any other "evidence"?

Colin's confused again but has no answer.  It seems you just react to headlines so I give you an explanation and it confuses you?

 

 

 

 

[Pilotman]

5 hours ago, Chelseafan said:

Free flights have nothing to do with it. Most airlines offer their personnel discounted/free perks,

 

If you look at the top-line management team, they are pretty much all ex-military. Inflexible, unable to think outside the box unimiagnative and used to following rules and procedures. They have very little experience of running a business let alone an airline and sadly this formula has been repeated time and time again.

 

What you need in any well run company is a respected management team who understand market dynamics and competition and are customer foccussed whilst also keeping a tight reign on the purse-strings.

 

They need to privatise the whole damned operation whilst keeping govermental noses out of the business. It will take years to turn it around but its the airlines best chance of success.

 

 

"ll ex-military. Inflexible, unable to think outside the box unimiagnative and used to following rules and procedures."  While I agree that they should not be running a commercial business without suitable qualifications and experience, your representation of Military Officers is both insulting and a tired stereotype.  It may be true in Thailand, it is certainly not true in the UK, US or other western democracies. A person with your list of character flaws would not last long in the Military, or in a conflict situation.    

Edited May 21, 2020 by Pilotman

[ChipButty]

56 minutes ago, colinneil said:

Surely your user name is a joke, it appears you do not keep up with the news !!

It was all over the news, when the first class passenger got move out of his seat, for the free loader to sit in first class.

The one from Switzerland? it was other crew who wanted the seat if I remember

[madmitch]

1 hour ago, stupidfarang said:

I keep seeing people talking about people getting free flights, where is this information coming from? It would be good to see actual proof. I would not be surprised that it happens but I just like to see real proof and not just comments with no back up.

This is like asking for evidence of corruption in various levels of Government. Everyone knows it happens but there's not exactly a paper trail. And it's not just the knowitall farangs of thaivisa who are making these comments; the Thai people are also fully aware of this practice and they don't like it either. And the most annoying thing is that many of these freebies go to people who can easily afford to pay!

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, Chelseafan said:

To be fair, that's generally the rule of thumb for a lot of airlines

 

Economy = Base

Business = Base x 3/4

First = Base x 7/8

 

Obviously there are promotions to be had which mitigate the higher fares.

 

I would hazard a guess that around 80% of the time I book a flight to Thailand Emirates are cheaper.

 

 

Thai had direct flights to UK and good legroom in economy. I might have flown Emirates but for the stopoff.

[jayboy]

52 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

So again you are not providing any evidence of the plague of the hi-sos filling up aircraft for free.

The incident you are probably referring to was the case of the two dead heading pilots bumping two passengers from first class.  Those two passengers had been upgraded (for free) from business class and refused to relinquish their new first class status. 

 

Due to a technical issue the aircraft was changed from a 777 to an old 747 which did not have a crew rest area for the dead headers to sleep in (and they needed their rest hours as they were back on duty after the flight) so they claimed the rules stated they must have a first class seat to sleep in as business class on the old 747 is not lie flat, hence asking the upgraded passengers to move which they refused to do so.

Did Thai handle the situation very poorly?  Yes.  Was it a PR disaster?  Yes.  Was it a paying first class passenger getting moved for a hi-so free loader?  Nope, not at all.  

Got any other "evidence"?

The problem in TG on this issue goes far beyond dead heading.It's not just a matter of paying passengers being ousted from Business Class.It's much more a matter of Business Class and First Class seats not being available in the first place for paying passengers - not just because they had been snaffled by TG staff but equally other government freeloaders travelling on "business". This is a known problem within TG - and many (including myself) will have observed it over many years.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, Pilotman said:

"ll ex-military. Inflexible, unable to think outside the box unimiagnative and used to following rules and procedures."  While I agree that they should not be running a commercial business without suitable qualifications and experience, your representation of Military Officers is both insulting and a tired stereotype.  It may be true in Thailand, it is certainly not true in the UK, US or other western democracies. A person with your list of character flaws would not last long in the Military, or in a conflict situation.    

It pretty much describes the officers I had the misfortune to serve under, with a few exceptions to the rule.

Edited May 21, 2020 by blackcab
Quote reformatted. Please do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes or wording. Such posts will be deleted and the user warned.

[ThailandRyan]

48 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

Colin's confused again but has no answer.  It seems you just react to headlines so I give you an explanation and it confuses you?

 

 

 

 

I guess you need to learn to read.....My post within this thread #23.

"It is the main reason I have not flown with Thai in the past 4 years.  I had a flight to the US and back, but was bumped from my first class seat so an employee could take their trip, I do not care if it was a pilot or a freaking executive, you do not bounce a paying customer.  Instead they offered me a voucher for the inconvenience when I complained.  I ended up flying out on Korean Air, and have flown them ever since.  Never did get a full refund from Thai.  They are so screwed up.  Employee's may fly free but it should be on a standby only option, and if a seat is open then they can take it.  If a seat is already occupied and you remove that person for your free employee you are a unscrupulous company in my book." 

 

https://www.thetravel.com/thai-airways-flight-delayed-and-passengers-booted-when-two-off-duty-pilots-demanded-first-class-seats/

Edited May 21, 2020 by ThailandRyan