Popular Post anterian Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 The UK is an example of an old democracy gone senile and dying. Thailand is an example of a democracy that was still born. 8 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post lensta Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 32 minutes ago, Baerboxer said: And if those "idiots", in your opinion, had not protested against the plan to grant Thaksin total absolution, past, present and future, the Shins would still be in power, with the big boss back at the helm, a crippling 2.2 trillion baht "loan" which the Shins wanted to spend at their discretion. The Shin clan would be well on the way to creating the sort of "democracy" Cambodia enjoys under the ruthless autocrat Hun Sen. Lesser of two evils - very debatable! I will take Thaksin any day over the clowns that form the government now 13 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post rupert the bear Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 covid has been a boon to authoritarian govs the world over,more power and less responsibility for abuses.look at dutarte,the so called democracies too but more like mass incompetence see eu and uk.singapore too somewhat suprisingly .the problem is no matter how badly they perform or rediculous the legislation they come out with they continue to tell us what to do even though they arnnt qualified at any level,they will not be held accountable and will continue to award themselves gold plated pensions that we pay for and we will pick up the tab for their momentous economic cockups.across the world the voting populace must make these goons pay the price when and if we are ever allowed out again.here theres no democratic process and the economy is fragile in nature and its been bombed .get it moving again and the airports open ,testing is almost unheard of.why?they wont spend the money cheap tests are available now get on with it.tourism is 30% of the econ one way or another so open to countries with low counts,temps and tests on arrival.500b and get hotels and restaurants open mid june.the no of deaths is miniscule in comparison to traffic deaths and respiratory disease deaths ,start to think 5 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Wiggy Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 7 hours ago, rooster59 said: and employ people who are knowledgeable, capable, honest and diligent to govern. Good luck with that! 5 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post herwin1234 Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 5 hours ago, Pilotman said: If you want an example of democratic power gone off the rails, just look at the UK. That place is a mad house of over bearing Police, incompetent Central Bankers, Civil Servants and politicians, with too much time on their hands, not a clue what is going on and with too much power to abuse. In comparison, Thailand is a beacon of stability and common sense. I am just glad I was here in LOS during this social media driven, monumentally economically damaging fiasco very well said! This expert is a Pro Democracy activist, even he has to admit how well this current pm is dealing with the crisis. it was telling to watch the weeklongs protests and rioting of the Isan Red Shirts a decade ago in Bangkok. When the governement didnt take the bait but let them wreck havoc on Bkk for weeks, as a last resort these Red Shirts burned down Central and other buildings. They dont want to protest or real democracy, they just want to divide, play the victim, etc. Thanks to this current pm Thailand has been SAVED from economic collapse, division, instead every year economy up, and stability. Isan cities now and ten years ago, all have seen tremendous economic growth. There is Democracy in Thailand, but not the divisive and corosive democracy like in many western countries like the usa. 2 4 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Wiggy Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, KarenBravo said: For democracy to work properly, it needs an educated and informed electorate. Uneducated people are easily manipulated by populist politicians. Whether Thailand is ready for a democracy that functions as intended, I'll leave up to you. Agreed. One only needs to look at the education system here to see this in action. Edited May 23, 2020 by Wiggy 4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post robblok Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 3 hours ago, 19DL86 said: Don't hold your breath!! You only have to look at the Middle East - power has to be seized from these despots and tyrannical leaders. There are far too many piggies getting fat from the trough, which is forever replenished. These people won't give up their grasp on power without a fight, blood must be spilt and many lives lost. Sadly I am afraid the Thai people don't have a stomach or mind for this, too deeply indoctrinated by their religion and a fantastical love for the power in the big house. (Or Germany 555). Those that could or might make a difference are waiting for the crumbs off the table, and far too obsessed with being HiSo to care. Social elevation at any cost!!! So business as usual then is it? It has nothing to do with that they don't have the stomach. I recently talked with some Thais about it its more that no matter who they help in power they are all corrupt. YL and her bunch were corrupt, this bunch is corrupt. Once in power they are almost all corrupt. I have good hope for future forward but other then that they are all corrupt and all have those same bad nepotist ways and will abuse their power for their own good. 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr mr Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 4 hours ago, BritManToo said: COVID has shown 'lack of democracy' in almost every country. Why pick on Thailand? ding ding. the illusion is no more. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Pilotman Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 6 hours ago, KarenBravo said: For democracy to work properly, it needs an educated and informed electorate. Uneducated people are easily manipulated by populist politicians. Whether Thailand is ready for a democracy that functions as intended, I'll leave up to you. We know that democracy is just the least worst option on a very short list of ways to run a country. Recent elections rather go to disprove your hypothesis that an educated electorate is needed for democracy to work. If that were so, there would never be a socialist government ever elected anywhere in the democratic world. People can be morons even when they are well educated, just take a look at academics and teachers as two such groups. 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilotman Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 24 minutes ago, herwin1234 said: very well said! This expert is a Pro Democracy activist, even he has to admit how well this current pm is dealing with the crisis. it was telling to watch the weeklongs protests and rioting of the Isan Red Shirts a decade ago in Bangkok. When the governement didnt take the bait but let them wreck havoc on Bkk for weeks, as a last resort these Red Shirts burned down Central and other buildings. They dont want to protest or real democracy, they just want to divide, play the victim, etc. Thanks to this current pm Thailand has been SAVED from economic collapse, division, instead every year economy up, and stability. Isan cities now and ten years ago, all have seen tremendous economic growth. There is Democracy in Thailand, but not the divisive and corosive democracy like in many western countries like the usa. at the risk of a circle of self congratulation, well said to you too. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post blazes Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 Revolution or revisionism? Thailand is re-playing the history of the rest of the world in the 20th Century. (Plus America in 1776 and France in 1789.) Either you take to the streets (as the Yellow Shirts in 2008 demonstrated, ironically) or you crawl gradually over a whole century to establish a social democracy with a prosperous middle-class. Corruption remains in most countries of the world, but you can at least cut it down to a minimum by paying (for example) a police force enough salary to resist the temptation to accept tea money. Almost anywhere in the Western world, if you offered a cop a bribe you would be arrested!!! 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Mung Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Pilotman said: If you want an example of democratic power gone off the rails, just look at the UK. That place is a mad house of over bearing Police, incompetent Central Bankers, Civil Servants and politicians, with too much time on their hands, not a clue what is going on and with too much power to abuse. In comparison, Thailand is a beacon of stability and common sense. I am just glad I was here in LOS during this social media driven, monumentally economically damaging fiasco when was the last time you saw civilians in the UK picking up guns, joining one of 2 sides made up of tens of thousands, and shooting each other in the capital during a political conflict? Edited May 23, 2020 by Mung 4 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilotman Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 6 minutes ago, sammieuk1 said: Full metal jacket committee at the wheel-tapers and shunters club???? well maybe, but that 'committee' is making you and all of us jump through as many hoops as they can dream up. So who are the dummies here? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilotman Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 1 minute ago, Mung said: when was the last time you saw civilians in the UK picking up guns, joining one of 2 sides made up of tens of thousands, and shooting each other in the capital during a political conflict? Is that your only measure of a failed democracy? When have you seen that in Russia, which is hardly a beacon of that way to govern? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post KarenBravo Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 56 minutes ago, ponder said: Winston Churchill is reputed to have once said, “The best argument against Democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.” He was not referring to Thailand (at least, not specifically). He also said that "Democracy is the worst form of government.....except for all the rest". 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Mung Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Pilotman said: Is that your only measure of a failed democracy? When have you seen that in Russia, which is hardly a beacon of that way to govern? And so an army general that clearly did not win enough seats, being in power still is a democracy? What about the people of the UK being allowed to voice their opinion about any political or royal figure, without the threat of punishment; democracy? I would like to see you head outside and voice your opinions on the street of Thailand, and see how that goes for you Edited May 23, 2020 by Mung 7 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natway09 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 It is a very easy time to point out (jump on em while they are down,) these things that we have known all along (& so have they) It is another to get a country in which the majority are uneducated, easily led by a bit of corruption to come up with a workable solution. The events of the last 3 moths have at least shown some respect for authority with a positive result (so far). Not sure Thailand is ready for a full democratic Government (whatever that means) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Dumbastheycome Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 7 minutes ago, Mung said: when was the last time you saw civilians in the UK picking up guns, joining one of 2 sides made up of tens of thousands, and shooting each other in the capital during a political conflict? I tink that was back wit th wee Irish trubbles ! 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post KarenBravo Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 16 minutes ago, Pilotman said: We know that democracy is just the least worst option on a very short list of ways to run a country. Recent elections rather go to disprove your hypothesis that an educated electorate is needed for democracy to work. If that were so, there would never be a socialist government ever elected anywhere in the democratic world. People can be morons even when they are well educated, just take a look at academics and teachers as two such groups. Are you American? Socialism does not equate to communism. Have a look at some countries that have a highly educated workforce, have some of the highest standard of living indexes in the world (consistently) are democracies and are socialist. Of course, I'm talking about the four Scandinavian countries. 6 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilotman Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Just now, Mung said: And so an army general that clearly did not win enough seats, being in power still is a democracy? What about the people of the UK being allowed to voice their opinion about any political or royal figure, without the threat of punishment; democracy? I would like to see you head outside and voice your opinions on the street of Thailand, and see how that goes for you If you will excuse me, you are exhibiting a lack of knowledge of Thai history and what works and does not work here. History tells us that a partnership between the elite, the First family and the Military has produced the most stable governments in Thailand. It has happened over a dozen times in recent history, 15 if memory serves me right and it will go on happening. Comparing Thai 'democracy' to the UK system is disingenuous of you, as you must be aware of this. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Pilotman Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, KarenBravo said: Are you American? Socialism does not equate to communism. Have a look at some countries that have a highly educated workforce, have some of the highest standard of living indexes in the world (consistently) are democracies and are socialist. Of course, I'm talking about the four Scandinavian countries. Your first sentence; it does in my book. The countries you quoted have the highest tax rates in Europe. High taxes to pay benefits is the socialist mantra, and a recipe for inefficiency and and wholesale advantage taking by many who don't care to make the effort to contribute. No I am English, note, not just British. Edited May 23, 2020 by Pilotman 3 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post KarenBravo Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Pilotman said: If you will excuse me, you are exhibiting a lack of knowledge of Thai history and what works and does not work here. History tells us that a partnership between the elite, the First family and the Military has produced the most stable governments in Thailand. It has happened over a dozen times in recent history, 15 if memory serves me right and it will go on happening. Comparing Thai 'democracy' to the UK system is disingenuous of you, as you must be aware of this. Of course they are stable. Because it fulfills the wants of the ruling classes. The majority of Thais had no power to change it as the ruling classes kept their hands on the levers of power. This all changed with Taksin (who I aborr). His genius was to understand that the one thing that made a poor peasant and a rich HiSo the same, was that they each had a single vote. The poor in this country vastly outnumber the ruling classes. Now that he has gone, the toothpaste cannot be put back into the tube. The Reds don't need Taksin anymore. The poor now understand the power that they can wield via the ballot box. This is of course dependent on a level playing field which eplains why the ruling classes, no matter what platitudes they utter, don't like democracy and are loath to hold elections. Edited May 23, 2020 by KarenBravo 7 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaan sailor Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Let's make a deal. You can keep your non-democratic government--just get the damned Baht back to its 10-year average. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colabamumbai Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 So get your money out of Thailand now as multinationals are doing. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post KarenBravo Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 7 minutes ago, Pilotman said: Your first sentence; it does in my book. The countries you quoted have the highest tax rates in Europe. High taxes to pay benefits is the socialist mantra, and a recipe for inefficiency and and wholesale advantage taking by many who don't care to make the effort to contribute. No I am English, note, not just British. You are calling the Scandinavian countries inefficient? The citizens are clearly willing to pay high taxes to ensure a social safety net and to stop wealth inequality getting out of hand. Witness the difference where US citizens that have lost their jobs are eventually going to run out of money, even though the government has spent more than three trillion dollars (how very socialist of them) on them. The Scandinavians in contrast don't have that fear, nor do they fear the cost of health emergencies that can wipe-out a life-times worth of savings. 4 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destiny1990 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Seems it is face mask wearing day today. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Pilotman Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, KarenBravo said: You are calling the Scandinavian countries inefficient? The citizens are clearly willing to pay high taxes to ensure a social safety net and to stop wealth inequality getting out of hand. Witness the difference where US citizens that have lost their jobs are eventually going to run out of money, even though the government has spent more than three trillion dollars (how very socialist of them) on them. The Scandinavians in contrast don't have that fear, nor do they fear the cost of health emergencies that can wipe-out a life-times worth of savings. wealth equality is a myth. People need to be richer than others, some very rich indeed in order to generate wealth for others. Wealth creation by those with money is the engine that drives civilisation. It was always thus. A cursory reading of Roman history shows that all too clearly. Socialism seems to espouse that you tax the rich disproportionately higher than other people in order to equalise wealth. Its all utter nonsense of course. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post KarenBravo Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 Of course there is always wealth inequality, but, it's a matter of degree. It has been steadily increasing over the years. When a majority of the people have virtually nothing compared to the tiny minority that have most of the wealth, one thing happens. It happened in 1789, 1917, 1949 and 1959. 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post soalbundy Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 6 hours ago, Tarteso said: Since 1932 Thailand has had 25 generals election, 20 constitutions, 19 coups d’etat, the last one in 2014. Maths speaks for itself... If the idea of democracy isn't a fixed value, an obvious value here and now, not tomorrow, someday, then a constitution isn't worth the paper it's written on. Thailand has engineers, scientists, professors, skilled doctors but their minds are still locked into a feudal system. A scientist on a moderate income thinks like a peasant in the field, if he is rich he thinks like a lord of the manor, rarely, if ever does he think of himself as free responsible citizen, able to speak the truth without consequences, he is trapped by his own conceptions. Getting rid of these conceptions demands sacrifice, upheaval, disarray, chaos, it takes many years before the minds of the people are swept clean. The West has taken hundreds of years to attain this through bloodshed, poverty, misery, wars, and oppression before the rotten edifice of the old structures could be pulled down, having achieved the goals of their great grandfathers and grandfathers the young are now rattling at the foundations of democracy by use of political correctness voting in populist leaders (see Trump, Johnson, Putin) and releasing without a whimper power to the banks and the elite resulting in homelessness, unemployment, badly paid jobs, wage slavery. <deleted> we have the internet and iphones, the new opium for the people. 5 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ketyo Posted May 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2020 (edited) This professor is right. The strong democracies that govern by consent (like in Europe and USA) have systems that are so stable that they can tolerate high numbers of cases and unfortunately deaths and keep the economies going.. even at a lower lever... and will come out in a position to recover. The governments who do NOT govern by consent. The authoritarian ones without proper democracies. Who govern because the leaders keep their boots on the throats of the citizens. And keep their people down. Like China and Thailand, cannot afford many deaths. Or their people would riot. They are so scared because they do not govern with the consent of their people. The Chinese spokesman last week mocked the USA and said that if China had 90,000 deaths the Chinese would riot and kick the government out, demanding a change to the entire system of government there. He was right. And that shows the strength of the American and democratic systems and the weaknesses of the Chinese and authoritarian systems where the governments have stolen power from their citizens. In the end the democracies will come through this with immunity in the population and economies that can be rebuilt quickly. The authoritarian scared regimes who have closed their countries will suffer from fear of opening up their countries, zero immunity in the population and ruined economies that take generations to come back.. long after the control freaks, the generals and communists have been kicked out. Edited May 23, 2020 by Ketyo 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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