Covid plus lack of democracy ‘spells disaster’ for Thailand

[KarenBravo]

1 hour ago, mrfill said:

Read up about the cause and effect of the two Opium wars. British exploitation at its worlds best, forcing an entire nation onto opium purely for profit.

Still better than chopping off peoples hands if rubber collection didn't reach a certain quota

At least the Chinese individual had a choice of whether to take opium, or not. The Congolese had no such choice. Also, the opium wars are responsible for introducing tea to India and then to the English, so, not 100% bad.

[Fairynuff]

On 5/23/2020 at 3:41 PM, Keesters said:

Democracy is not something Thailand can handle. They're better off being told what to do than thinking for themselves. 

These days I’d say the same about the US and UK, except for the fact that there’s no competence of leadership there.

[scubascuba3]

2 minutes ago, Fairynuff said:

These days I’d say the same about the US and UK, except for the fact that there’s no competence of leadership there.

i bet you think Jeremy Corbyn would be better in power. Luckily most people thought he was a waster, 4 years wasted on him

[Fairynuff]

23 hours ago, billd766 said:

In addition he was freely elected not just once but twice, each time without any "help" from the EC

I don’t believe his election wins were free and fair. I heard countless times from Thai people from all walks of life about  vote buying and all sorts of other things going on. I’m not Thai, had no vote and no say. As long as I’ve lived here I haven’t felt that any government has done a good job.

[Fairynuff]

23 hours ago, Oxx said:

It gave them Christianity

That’s the point at which you lost the argument 

[Fairynuff]

3 hours ago, 473geo said:

Just be thankful governments are not currently permitted to align overseas pensions to indigenous government levels ????

Whilst I’m not yet getting one, I beg you not to give them any ideas.

[Fairynuff]

24 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

i bet you think Jeremy Corbyn would be better in power. Luckily most people thought he was a waster, 4 years wasted on him

Why do people (like you) always turn to the Corbyn defense mechanism. It’s such a non argument. I personally have barely more respect for Corbyn as I have for Johnson. Neither of them are capable of doing the job. Johnson has already proved that, Corbyn didn’t get the chance.

[John CS]

Rupert Bear 

Respect your comments , the most unpredictable response is always the peoples response once organised, i would expect many people know what is wrong, after all they see wrong everyday, its how to correct it...together

I only know so-called democracies US & UK, the power is generally abused!

The wealth differential is obscene, the corporate class undermines us all and disrepects us, but Govts will always fear the people and their will , this is why they always try to control and suppress us to maintain power, its because of their FEAR of us.

The worst thing ,is to have no empathy or sympathy because that is the qualities of our ruling sociopathic class , be they successful business people or politicians

Go well.???? people

[Oxx]

56 minutes ago, Fairynuff said:

That’s the point at which you lost the argument 

 

Christianity, a religion which teaches love for your fellow man, compassion and tolerance.

 

Far better than some colonial religions which teach chop off the hand or head of anyone who disagrees with you, subjugate women, throw homosexuals from high buildings, stone adulterers to death.

 

Christianity's not perfect, but it's a damn sight better than some of the alternatives.

[elliss]

On 5/23/2020 at 7:44 AM, KarenBravo said:

For democracy to work properly, it needs an educated and informed electorate.

Uneducated people are easily manipulated by populist politicians.

Whether Thailand is ready for a democracy that functions as intended, I'll leave up to you.

 

          UK , has a history of poorly educated , and ill informed electorate .

          No , we are not going to talk about the Brexit fiasco, again ..

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by elliss

[Fairynuff]

2 hours ago, Oxx said:

 

Christianity, a religion which teaches love for your fellow man, compassion and tolerance.

 

Far better than some colonial religions which teach chop off the hand or head of anyone who disagrees with you, subjugate women, throw homosexuals from high buildings, stone adulterers to death.

 

Christianity's not perfect, but it's a damn sight better than some of the alternatives.

You’re right, it’s VERY far from perfect. Bigotry, abuse, crusading....... 

[Denim]

On 5/23/2020 at 7:44 AM, KarenBravo said:

For democracy to work properly, it needs an educated and informed electorate.

Uneducated people are easily manipulated by populist politicians.

Whether Thailand is ready for a democracy that functions as intended, I'll leave up to you.

 

No. For democracy to work properly it requires that those participating understand the concept of one man one vote and that they respect the outcome of a fairly held election under rules agreed upon by all sides.

 

Education and being informed are completely irrelevant under democracy.

 

If you want a system that requires education and being informed as a prerequisite for participation then you don't want democracy.

 

If education and being informed were pre requisites for a successful democracy then there never was such a thing as democracy in the first place.

 

Democracy is about involving all the population in the choice of government so as to prevent the

' educated and informed ' from running a country to their own advantage , as in an oligarchy or totally capitalist society.

 

Or to put it more plainly, democracy is about giving poor people who cannot afford a university education a say in how a country is run.

 

A man who has no university education is not necessarily ignorant and stupid any more than a man who has been to university is wise  honest and erudite enough not to also vote in his own interest .

 

The whole world is run by people with university educations but can anyone say what a great job they are making of it. All Thai politicians are required to have a certain level of education.

 

Thaksin , Prayuth , Suthep , Abhisit, Leekpai, etc. 

 

You could easily understand how a peasant farmer might be disappointed that those people running the country, with all their education and informed opinions, are nonetheless the very same people who have proven themselves to be the most immoral and corrupt members of society.

 

Your original post garnered a lot of positive responses.

 

Are we to conclude from this fact that were there to be a military coup in many western countries because the uneducated and easily led by the tabloids electorate had voted for Trump , Johnson, Merkal etc it would be a good thing ? 

 

If so, what system would be an improvement to giving every citizen , warts and all , a say in who is to run a country.

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by Denim

[3NUMBAS]

the UK jobs outlook is being compared with the 80s so everywhere else will be the same ,dire propsects .so nobody will be buying many smart phones in the coming years .make and mend is the future for everyone.learn how to darn your socks and repair your shoes again until theyre so old

[tingtong]

 

On 5/23/2020 at 7:26 AM, Tarteso said:

Since 1932 Thailand has had 25 generals election, 20 constitutions, 19 coups d’etat,  

the last one in 2014. Maths speaks for itself...

 

according the math averages the next coups d'etat is already late...

Edited May 24, 2020 by tingtong

[SupermarineS6B]

On 5/24/2020 at 2:25 AM, KarenBravo said:

Longest enduring? I don't think so.

The Roman empire endured for far, far longer. As did the Ottoman empire.

The British essentially made the modern world. British institutions of representative democracy inspired French Enlightenment philosophers such as Montesquieu to devise theories of modern government that influenced other modern European states. The main characteristics of the United States— a commitment to liberalism, the rule of law, civil rights, and trade— were inherited from the British and spread throughout the world. Most of these characteristics evolved organically throughout the long history of England, rather than being the result of some master plan.

These characteristics were also instrumental in helping the British Empire grow, thrive and hold whatever territory it controlled. Moreover, its example was widely emulated, whether for its financial prowess or its naval strength. At its peak in the early 20th century, the British Empire stretched across almost a quarter of the world— the largest of any empire in history. This feat was made possible more because of England’s organizational feats and financial prowess rather than through a huge army. For example, the British conquest of India was mostly undertaken by Indian troops in British pay who choose to serve the British because of the regular salaries and benefits offered by them. London also demonstrated a remarkable ability to handle multiple wars at once. And while they sometimes lost battles the British rarely lost wars.  

 

The largest Empire in History........  Or did i mean the most useful one ?   

Edited May 24, 2020 by SupermarineS6B

[SupermarineS6B]

4 hours ago, 3NUMBAS said:

the UK jobs outlook is being compared with the 80s so everywhere else will be the same ,dire propsects .so nobody will be buying many smart phones in the coming years .make and mend is the future for everyone.learn how to darn your socks and repair your shoes again until theyre so old

I remember the eighties very well, my career interview consisted of, "Army, Navy, Air Force or the dole"..... ?  Mind you it did send me abroad....... Which in hindsight was a blessing.......   

[SupermarineS6B]

22 hours ago, Derek B said:

I guess I'm a fool then.   The only thing I can think of worst case is permanently closed borders except for members of the CCP meaning the Domino effect has still to be completed.

If you live here and are seeing what's going on with the likes of Anutin and his mates and the Governments sucking up of China, how long do you think before you and i will be asked (Forced to leave) ?  Nationalism of this flavour is very dangerous stuff and the last time this happened was during WW2..........  It didn't end well for Thailand that time either.   I've lived in Thailand longer than i lived in my home country and it's sad that the powers that be are making it hard for "Foreigners" to stay here....... I just wonder when western governments do the same to Thais what will be the backlash on the Thai government and will it be a blessing straw that breaks the (Buffalos back)  ?  

[SupermarineS6B]

41 minutes ago, SupermarineS6B said:

The British essentially made the modern world. British institutions of representative democracy inspired French Enlightenment philosophers such as Montesquieu to devise theories of modern government that influenced other modern European states. The main characteristics of the United States— a commitment to liberalism, the rule of law, civil rights, and trade— were inherited from the British and spread throughout the world. Most of these characteristics evolved organically throughout the long history of England, rather than being the result of some master plan.

These characteristics were also instrumental in helping the British Empire grow, thrive and hold whatever territory it controlled. Moreover, its example was widely emulated, whether for its financial prowess or its naval strength. At its peak in the early 20th century, the British Empire stretched across almost a quarter of the world— the largest of any empire in history. This feat was made possible more because of England’s organizational feats and financial prowess rather than through a huge army. For example, the British conquest of India was mostly undertaken by Indian troops in British pay who choose to serve the British because of the regular salaries and benefits offered by them. London also demonstrated a remarkable ability to handle multiple wars at once. And while they sometimes lost battles the British rarely lost wars.  

 

The largest Empire in History, granted........  Or did i mean the most usefully beneficial one ?   

Interesting reading........https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire

Edited May 24, 2020 by SupermarineS6B

[Captain Monday]

On 5/23/2020 at 12:59 PM, DaveE13 said:

That photo is like a line up of new exhibits at the natural history museum !

.

They are all quite fat.

[Tarteso]

4 hours ago, tingtong said:

 

 

according the math averages the next coups d'etat is already late...

Wrong. The last one, is working yet.

[Geoffggi]

On 5/23/2020 at 8:58 AM, herfiehandbag said:

The solution, obviously, and no doubt the one which will be pursued, is not to lift the state of emergency.

Unfortunately you are correct, typical uncivil attitude........!!

[Greg O]

The floggings will continue until the attitude improves ! 

[stereolab]

3 hours ago, SupermarineS6B said:

I remember the eighties very well, my career interview consisted of, "Army, Navy, Air Force or the dole"..... ?  Mind you it did send me abroad....... Which in hindsight was a blessing.......   

The Eighties, "Get Some In".

[blazes]

19 minutes ago, stereolab said:

The Eighties, "Get Some In".

 

In 1940 it was, "Please, sir, I want to join the Few."

 

"Sorry, mate, they're full."

[jayboy]

On 5/23/2020 at 7:44 AM, KarenBravo said:

For democracy to work properly, it needs an educated and informed electorate.

Uneducated people are easily manipulated by populist politicians.

Whether Thailand is ready for a democracy that functions as intended, I'll leave up to you.

An understandable view but, given some thought, essentially a complete misreading.A democracy does not depend on educated people.It depends on people who have the ability to select representatives who will serve their constituents' interests.In Thailand, one of the most unequal societies on earth, there is a tendency on the part of the urban middle class to regard "populism" as the opposite of true democracy.These privileged people believe that the majority is too easily manipulated by politicians who peddle myths and lies.Indeed in some circles "politician" is a dirty word and is accompanied by a belief the nation would be better run by bureaucrats and "good" people.They never recognise that they too are driven by a different set of myths and lies which conveniently channel a disproportionate share of the nation's resources to urban centres (ie themselves)

 

Obviously true democracy requires much more than representative politics that serves all the people.It requires checks and balances and the rule of law - none of which incidentally now exists.It also requires a government that is not dominated by a small number of massive corporations, as is the case now.

 

Im my view when someone in Thailand starts rabbiting on about "populism" and the need for an "educated" electorate, it may superficially sound convincing but in truth that person, consciously or not, is simply serving the interests of an outdated, selfish and arrogant set of masters.

[KarenBravo]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

An understandable view but, given some thought, essentially a complete misreading.A democracy does not depend on educated people.It depends on people who have the ability to select representatives who will serve their constituents' interests.In Thailand, one of the most unequal societies on earth, there is a tendency on the part of the urban middle class to regard "populism" as the opposite of true democracy.These privileged people believe that the majority is too easily manipulated by politicians who peddle myths and lies.Indeed in some circles "politician" is a dirty word and is accompanied by a belief the nation would be better run by bureaucrats and "good" people.They never recognise that they too are driven by a different set of myths and lies which conveniently channel a disproportionate share of the nation's resources to urban centres (ie themselves)

 

Obviously true democracy requires much more than representative politics that serves all the people.It requires checks and balances and the rule of law - none of which incidentally now exists.It also requires a government that is not dominated by a small number of massive corporations, as is the case now.

 

Im my view when someone in Thailand starts rabbiting on about "populism" and the need for an "educated" electorate, it may superficially sound convincing but in truth that person, consciously or not, is simply serving the interests of an outdated, selfish and arrogant set of masters.

You're wrong.

Of course education isn't the only factor needed, but, it's one important ingredient that is missing in Thailand. Isn't that self-evident?

 

If I'm incorrect, then Harvard university and many other respected organizations are wrong too.

Believing you, or Harvard is a no-brainer.

Try using Google instead of spouting conspiracy theories.

Edited May 25, 2020 by KarenBravo

[jayboy]

27 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

You're wrong.

Of course education isn't the only factor needed, but, it's one important ingredient that is missing in Thailand. Isn't that self-evident?

 

If I'm incorrect, then Harvard university and many other respected organizations are wrong too.

Believing you, or Harvard is a no-brainer.

Try using Google instead of spouting conspiracy theories.

Educated people are everywhere in Thailand though on a per capita basis there is a huge bias towards the urban middle class.I am not sure why you believe education is missing in Thailand since there is one of the largest budgets spent on this sector in Asean per capita.The problem is that much of it is misdirected.

 

In any event much depends what you mean by education.All the research shows that even among Thais with low formal levels of education there is a very high level of understanding how political parties and politicians will impact on their families and communities - negatively or positively, and vote accordingly.

 

I don't understand your vague references to Google or Harvard.Explain yourself or even better try thinking harder about the issues.In the meantime point out any comments I have made that could be labelled conspiracy theory.

[OldMan88]

Yes, we could have had muddling around, delaying, only partially implementing lockdown, social distancing and wearing facemasks while hordes of people. died. Thailand let the Great Western Democracies of USA, UK and EU demonstrate that. The article was described as being the opinion of an 'expert' but did later reveal that it was an anti-government piece by a political activist.

[KarenBravo]

59 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Educated people are everywhere in Thailand though on a per capita basis there is a huge bias towards the urban middle class.I am not sure why you believe education is missing in Thailand since there is one of the largest budgets spent on this sector in Asean per capita.The problem is that much of it is misdirected.

 

In any event much depends what you mean by education.All the research shows that even among Thais with low formal levels of education there is a very high level of understanding how political parties and politicians will impact on their families and communities - negatively or positively, and vote accordingly.

 

I don't understand your vague references to Google or Harvard.Explain yourself or even better try thinking harder about the issues.In the meantime point out any comments I have made that could be labelled conspiracy theory.

If you call learning by rote, not asking questions because of "loss of face issues", an education, so be it. Couple that with the "no one fails" mentality............?

Spend five minutes talking to any Thai English teacher and you might change your mind.

Google and Harvard? I used one to find the other. There are also many web-sites that agree that an educated populace is vital for a functioning democracy. If you don't believe that, that's up to you.

The Thai ruling class doesn't want an educated public. That is why the Thai primary and secondary education is so bad.

 

Here is one link of many.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/1363115/thai-education-system-fails-to-pass-the-test-says-unesco-report

[billd766]

17 hours ago, Oxx said:

 

Christianity, a religion which teaches love for your fellow man, compassion and tolerance.

 

Far better than some colonial religions which teach chop off the hand or head of anyone who disagrees with you, subjugate women, throw homosexuals from high buildings, stone adulterers to death.

 

Christianity's not perfect, but it's a damn sight better than some of the alternatives.

Try druidism for a change/

 

https://www.livescience.com/45727-druids.html