Thai road carnage: Monthly death toll already 616 - Year total well past 6,000

[digger70 2444]

16 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

 

The level of discussion on this topic is mind-bogglingly stultifying and mindless as ever....

 

So far, the posts seem to be falling into 5 predictable categories

 

1.     False Dichotomy - e.g. either Road Safety OR Covid

 

2.     Racist Thai remarks - “all Thai drivers are inherently dim/stupid/selfish/have no common sense”

 

3.     Irrelevant anecdotes - “I saw someone driving badly”

 

4.     Single issue solutions - “The problem is....Driving test/police/drink etc.

 

5.     Use of cynicism to hide ignorance - “nothings gonna change” “TIT”

 

 

No-one is showing even the slightest understanding of the problem.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am Glad you do . You just explain /Teach us How to Understand /Deal with The Problem.  

[Airbagwill 1741]

6 hours ago, digger70 said:

16 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

 

The level of discussion on this topic is mind-bogglingly stultifying and mindless as ever....

 

So far, the posts seem to be falling into 5 predictable categories

 

1.     False Dichotomy - e.g. either Road Safety OR Covid

 

2.     Racist Thai remarks - “all Thai drivers are inherently dim/stupid/selfish/have no common sense”

 

3.     Irrelevant anecdotes - “I saw someone driving badly”

 

4.     Single issue solutions - “The problem is....Driving test/police/drink etc.

 

5.     Use of cynicism to hide ignorance - “nothings gonna change” “TIT”

 

 

No-one is showing even the slightest understanding of the problem.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am Glad you do . You just explain /Teach us How to Understand /Deal with The Problem.  

It would be nice to think that people could educate themselves on this topic, especially before posting ill thought out nonsense.

 

you don't seem to realise that above are examples of how people fail to address the topic.

 

I have posted a huge amount of information on this myself, which it appears you haven't noticed - so QED and the post above.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Airbagwill

[Airbagwill 1741]

10 hours ago, possum1931 said:

I don't think most of them are insured, there is no way any insurance company will ever take a hit in any way, but obviously they cannot force drivers and motorbike riders to take insurance out.

Insurance companies are - or should be -  the first to come to any incident.

In the event of any incident the very first thing to do is ring your insurance - they will quickly send out a guy to mediate between you the police and any third party. As a result of their diligence I have avoided all sorts of problems - and the other party was always insured too. Basically you and the other chap sit down and have a coffee whilst the 2 insurance agents sort it out between them

[Airbagwill 1741]

Thailand has been given the answer, it is the “Safe System” approach to road safety. European countries as well as recently Australia and New Zealand have the lowest road casualty figures and for good reason.....

 

Many road safety organisations in Thai and ASEAN support and put forward this approach, but it has failed to get traction with those in power... It would seem, they still cling to archaic and outdated perceptions of road safety.

 

Judging by the posts on this thread, most people are still unaware of this system and adhere to outdated and incorrect perceptions of road safety.

“Traditionally in road safety, during the 1950s and 1960s, there was an assumption that the primary goal of road safety was to correct human behaviour, rather than acknowledge that the causes of crashes are related to the inherent risks of using the existing road infrastructure. At this time, the analysis of road crashes involved attempting to understand all of the factors involved in a collision in order to suggest ways in which it could have been prevented. “ - ROSPA - https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-services/road-safety/roads/safe-system.pdf

What is “Safe System” approach?

Although human error is a factor in most road incidents, the “Safe System” adopted all over Europe etc realises that there are limits to what you can do to limit human error - i.e. there are equal numbers of stupid drivers EVERYWHERE - not just Thailand.

So it works on the premise that the road system and the entire transport environment has to be fool-proof and it is a failure of the system that causes human error or other factors to lead to death and serious injury. People will always make mistakes but the target is to OMPLETELY eliminate deaths and serious injuries. So, rather than aim campaigns - short or long - it needs the implementation of a permanent “Vision Zero” policy that in Thailand’s case would reform the road safety environment from the bottom up. This system will reduce the seriousness of outcome of any incidents. Roads and associated environments will have a forgiving infrastructure to achieve this as in the 5 Es below.

Many road safety organisations in Thai and ASEAN support and put forward this approach, but it has failed to get grip with those in power... It would seem, they still cling to archaic and outdated perceptions of road safety as 

 

For over a decade Thailand with its “Road Safety Action Plan” has espoused the virtues of the 5 “E”s (it has to be said with little effect) ...............

 

1.     Education

2.    Enforcement

3.    Engineering

4.    Emergency

5.    Evaluation

 

1.     Education

This is fairly self-explanatory - people need to be told/shown how to drive and given the “tools” to share the road with other users - UK had several government TV campaigns in the 60s and 70s. Clever well thought out ads with a bit of humour that weren’t condescending and helped to establish the country as a safe place to drive. (Do you remember the elephant in the fog?).

The first people to educate in Thailand would be the police.

In th past countries like the USA had virtually no driving tests at all, but over the years driving testing and training has become more intensive. It has in Thailand but tests and training alone have little effect if drivers are then released into a lawless untrammelled environment. Driver behaviours is as much a result of experience as testing. Unfortunately most people are incapable of analysing and learning from experience without guidance. i.e. Media campaigns etc

 

2.     Enforcement

Again apparently self-explanatory - but not as simple as some would suggest.

Thailand has the added problem of ingrained corruption, graft and bribery which impedes this no matter how many laws are passed. The laws need to be reasonable, applicable and equitably enforced too.

It is also very hard to enforce laws on roads that aren’t properly laid out and without a legal/court system in place to deal with it.

 

3.   Engineering: - most critics of (Thai) road safety usually ignore this aspect of road safety.

a - Vehicle engineering - Safer car design and engineering: - car safety is both “passive” (seat belts, airbags and construction etc.) and “Active” (braking steering, handling, traction control etc.) these two are really interdependent now with so much computerised and hi-tech features on modern vehicles.

·      Anti-locking brakes

·      Traction control

·      Air-bags

·      Side impact bars

·      AVCSS - Advanced vehicle control and safety systems

·      More reliable engine, tyres and components

·      Vehicle dynamics in general (vary from UK and Thailand)

Of course roadworthiness checks are vital - but largely unenforced in Thailand.

 

b - Road Engineering   - 

For years, Thailand has had a policy of building roads that are poorly engineered designed and executed. They encourage fast driving and extra traffic but have little or no regard for the safety aspects of road building

 The design and construction on the roads, bridges, junction, road surface, camber, drainage etc.  

·      The use of barriers (e.g. Armco), the removal of roadside hazards - e.g. trees or boulders on the side and centre of roads. The clearing of billboards and vegetation that obscure drivers’ vision 

·      Traffic - the use of lines, signs, bollards etc. etc. to dictate how and where the traffic flows and at what speed - virtually non-excitant in Thailand and seldom noticed by drivers in countries that make good use of it.

·      The use of barriers (e.g. Armco), the removal of trees from the side and centre of roads. The clearing of billboards and vegetation that obscure drivers’ vision.

·      Better infrastructure and engineering

·      Better road surfaces

·      Better signage

·      More forgiving 

·      Traffic calming

·      Shared space - keeping various road users apart is key to safety in some situations - if they are separated they can’t collide.

Like so many things on the roads in Thailand, the only reason that U-Turns happen is because the roads ALLOW it.... this is an engineering problem (and cost), not so much a driver problem.

 

4.     Emergency

- What happens in the event of injury... this is a major factor in who lives or dies.

It has been well documented that the time between accident and getting treatment is crucial in the survival of RTI victims. 

Treatment on the scene and reducing the time it takes to get the patient to hospital is vital. Thailand still has NO EFECTIVE UNIVERSAL EMERGENCY SERVICE!!

 

5.     Evaluation

 - How do we ascertain if measures are effective and what new ideas can be implemented.

Individual RTIs are examined scientifically in minute detail.

Statistics are gathered on every reported incident

Most governments have agencies of some sort that after engaging any road scheme, whether it is construction or a safety campaign, review in detail every aspect of that project; effects on local population, environment, accident statistics etc. etc.  Statistics are gathered and monitored and appropriate action taken. - 

Whereas Thailand may nominally have such bodies their effectiveness is just about zero. Road safety in Thailand is left largely to ill-thought out, baseless pronouncements made by members of the government with little better to do.

 

 

All these “Es” are interdependent, you can't have one without the other, so if you still cling to racist concepts about Thai people’s driving, or think that just telling he police “to do their Job” or any other single issue is the solution, you are sadly barking up the wrong tree.

What is required is a holistic long-term overhaul of the entire transport system.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Airbagwill

[JCP108 2055]

Thailand seems to have none of the Es. Probably why it's the 2nd most dangerous country (after Libya) in re road safety (so I have heard). 

[Airbagwill 1741]

2 hours ago, JCP108 said:

Thailand seems to have none of the Es. Probably why it's the 2nd most dangerous country (after Libya) in re road safety (so I have heard). 

Yes- Thailand falls short on every aspect.

 

however when qualifying "dangerous" roads one needs to look at all the stats not just the single bulk road deaths per 100k.

If you check the WHO web site where most of the figures come from you'll see there are many different ways of looking - as in 2 categories of injury,,,,miles travelled, number of vehicles etc etc

However if you just use the deaths per 100k, you'll soon see that as vulnerable road users (stistical definition) are 85 of total and 2-wheeled vehicles are 73% of total when you look at 4 wheeled private vehicles (cars, pickups) they death rate actually falls below that of the USA national average.

 

the 5th E is evaluation and that is how Western countries have learned how to address the road safety issues they faced. This is something that Thailand has failed at dimly - the collection collation and interpretation of figures is just incompetent and incomplete so the picture is very unfocused. They don't even have the 3 categories of incident - fatal, serious and minor.....so it is almost impossible to take any appropriate action.

This is underlined by the repeated annual pronouncements dictums and campaigns by successive governments, but yet the death toll apparently continues to rise.

The cost to the nation is about 3% of GDP - so no-one's making money out of this in the long run.

 

 

 

WHO road safety reports - https://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/road_safety_status/2018/en/

 

I would also suggest you check how they compile their stats, because there is a lot of nonsense  on this talked about how they are compiled.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Airbagwill

[Ratchsima 39]

Well yes, road accident in Thailand needs to alot of hard work to improve. Thai are stupid in that aspects.

 

but dont try to downplay the covid situation management  in Thailand. 

 

compare to the stupidity in most of the west in this pandemic causing people dying like worthless animal. Especially the UK is being one of the most stupidest in both people and government but no surprise for me judging from the comnents I read in TVF.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Ratchsima

[quake 1334]

 

Edited June 18, 2020 by quake

[quake 1334]

On 6/17/2020 at 7:46 PM, Airbagwill said:

 

The level of discussion on this topic is mind-bogglingly stultifying and mindless as ever....

 

So far, the posts seem to be falling into 5 predictable categories

 

1.     False Dichotomy - e.g. either Road Safety OR Covid

 

2.     Racist Thai remarks - “all Thai drivers are inherently dim/stupid/selfish/have no common sense”

 

3.     Irrelevant anecdotes - “I saw someone driving badly”

 

4.     Single issue solutions - “The problem is....Driving test/police/drink etc.

 

5.     Use of cynicism to hide ignorance - “nothings gonna change” “TIT”

 

 

No-one is showing even the slightest understanding of the problem

 

 

Number 2 gets my vote. 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2020 by quake

[thequietman 11449]

On 6/17/2020 at 4:42 PM, onelongvacation said:

The entire country is shut down and the economy crippled for 58 deaths from Covid but nothing is done when 6000 die and hundreds of thousands are maimed or injured in 5 months.

The world is watching with regards to the first thing. The second one, not so much.

 

Show, show, show & Face pretty much sums it all up here unfortunately.

[Airbagwill 1741]

On 6/18/2020 at 2:59 AM, possum1931 said:

To be honest here, I don't think the Thai government are as money mad as the UK government where traffic are concerned. Road tax, fuel tax, over the top MOT system, etc, etc, etc.

The reduction in deaths and injury SAVES money. Costs of road deaths and injuries in Thailand account for 3% of GDP.

[Airbagwill 1741]

2 hours ago, thequietman said:

The world is watching with regards to the first thing. The second one, not so much.

 

Show, show, show & Face pretty much sums it all up here unfortunately.

Example of false dichotomy.

You might want to include such things as liver cancer rates or infant deaths, where Thailand is nearly 5 times higher than Japan.

It simply isn't a case of one or the other.

Are you suggesting that Thailand should have done nothing about Covid or the measures didn't work? ..or that prevention of road deaths could be accomplished as quickly...or that a massive long term reduction in traffic would, although probably effective, not have any effect on the economy. When have seen what just a few weeks can do.

The prevention of Covid in Thailand appears to have relied on a few relatively simple short term solutions...... road safety requires a massive long term sea-change lasting for years, decades, even. The 2 issues are simply not connected in any way.

[essox essox 2499]

On 6/18/2020 at 8:51 AM, possum1931 said:

That's the Thai government for you.

58 deaths I read if the number IS CORRECT.....

[essox essox 2499]

On 6/18/2020 at 8:36 AM, possum1931 said:

I don't think most of them are insured, there is no way any insurance company will ever take a hit in any way, but obviously they cannot force drivers and motorbike riders to take insurance out.

but it is THE LAW to have insurance for any vehicle to be on the roads.......

[essox essox 2499]

8 hours ago, quake said:

Number 2 gets my vote. 

 

 

and my vote by a long long chalk

 

 

[essox essox 2499]

On 6/17/2020 at 7:44 PM, richard_smith237 said:

Absolutely agree...

 

At 6000 deaths for half of the year the average daily total is about 32 deaths per day, which is about half of the normal average of about 60 dead per day (as you mentioned).

 

I awaiting some true political genius to claim success in fighting the road deaths as the numbers have halved !!!!

YOU will have a long long wait...!!!!

[possum1931 13118]

7 minutes ago, essox essox said:

but it is THE LAW to have insurance for any vehicle to be on the roads.......

I know it's the law, but that does not matter in Thailand. How many uninsured vehicles do you think are on the roads here?

[essox essox 2499]

On 6/17/2020 at 6:06 PM, Airbagwill said:

"The problem is", "The problem is", "The problem is", "The problem is", "The problem is", 

 

Anyone who thinks there is a single solution to road safety in Thailand is WRONG!

there is a solution.....this being.....have PROPER QUALIFIED EXAMINERS, who WOULD NOT pass a thai....

I would love to be an examiner.....am sure MANY THAIS would NOT get a pass grade from me !!!

I have 48 yrs driving experience......and passed my Uk driving test FIRST TIME......

Edited June 19, 2020 by essox essox
wrong spelling

[essox essox 2499]

4 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

I know it's the law, but that does not matter in Thailand. How many uninsured vehicles do you think are on the roads here?

i can not guess is my answer......thousands is all i can say......

[Airbagwill 1741]

11 minutes ago, essox essox said:

but it is THE LAW to have insurance for any vehicle to be on the roads.......

The yearly road tax on a vehicle includes a basic third party type national Insurance 

Most Thai people especially on newer vehicles will have a comprehensive cover.

Unfortunately E for enforcement on those without is pretty ineffective.

So how does insurance reduce road deaths?

[digger70 2444]

16 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

It would be nice to think that people could educate themselves on this topic, especially before posting ill thought out nonsense.

 

you don't seem to realise that above are examples of how people fail to address the topic.

 

I have posted a huge amount of information on this myself, which it appears you haven't noticed - so QED and the post above.

No I didn't Because that post with all the Information (just found it) Wasn't there when I Replied to you're post.

You Posted that Info Just after I posted .Both post where done at about Same time . Thank you for the information.

[essox essox 2499]

On 6/17/2020 at 6:45 PM, possum1931 said:

There is not such a thing as an inactive post in the Thai police, they are all inactive, from the generals with their fancy ranks and uniforms covered in bling, to the officers standing at the school gates watching the underage children riding past on their parents motorbikes.

watching the underage children riding past on their parents motorbikes.

with NO HELMETS !!!

[essox essox 2499]

On 6/17/2020 at 5:02 PM, fred110 said:

Maybe cars and motor bikes should practice social distancing.

great idea but how DO/CAN they enforce distance from one vehicle to the other ????!!!!

[essox essox 2499]

On 6/17/2020 at 5:07 PM, Thongsaeng said:

"Looking left and right" ?

we were taught at school

"look left and right and then right again"

[essox essox 2499]

On 6/17/2020 at 5:12 PM, Bangkok Barry said:

There are many reasons that Thais drive as they do.

1 - I have never detected any sign of common sense in a Thai, and I've been living here for over 25 years. I am not sure how you teach that, but anyway there is no movement to do so.

2 - The Thais have a Me First mentality that is deeply ingrained, and that is the last thing you want to see in a driver.

3 - The education system demands that you do not think for yourself but listen and obey, so Thais do not develop the necessary skills to actually think. That may result in my first point above.

4 - Learning to drive in a proper and responsible manner is quite difficult, and Thais do not do difficult. Thais do 'near enough', but on the roads that isn't 'good enough'. One mistake can cost lives, so being lucky enough to get it right most of the time isn't good enough either.

5 - They have absolutely no concept that the vehicle they are attempting to operate is a potential killer. No concept at all.

6 - Along with inadequate teaching of all things about how to drive properly and safely, there is no test to determine if you have reached a standard where you are not a danger to yourself and others before you take to the road.

7 - Thais do not seem able to join the dots, and realise that if, for example, they drive at 120 kms an hour five metres behind the vehicle in front, or drive at night with no rear light (or front light if they are driving on the wrong side of the road because they have no concept of the danger), then they would have no time to react if the vehicle in front breaks suddenly. Ask any Thai what their safe braking distance is and they would have no idea.

8 - There are zero police patrols to help prevent accidents by pulling aside selfish and stupid drivers. Their only presence is setting up road blocks which seems in my experience to have only one purpose - to check your tax disc is in the window and up to date.

9 - Police have absolutely no interest in enforcing the law even when they are static beside the road, watching kids three or four on a bike go by with no helmet, no license, no ability to properly control the bike they are on. And that goes also for the parents and schools who allow Thailand's future to play Russian Roulette every time they go out. The police know they get paid anyway, so why work?

10 - The government does nothing to resolve the road death/accident toll as nothing practically can be done. The problem began decades ago when Thais first began to drive in numbers. No meaningful test was introduced and enforced, and now it is far, far too late. It would mean retraining every driver (and who would do that - it would be similar to those who teach English not being able to speak the language themselves). And it would mean the drivers having to take a proper western-style test before gaining a license. And it would mean police patrols to catch those who drive as if they are playing a video game. Now, anyone can drive as they like and put themselves and others in danger as they know that have zero chance of being caught. They can drive that way with total impunity. And it would require said (non-existent) police to actually enforce the law. And not one of things is possible in Thailand,

 

To finish, nothing can or will change and survival on Thai roads will continue to be a lottery. All we can do is remember the words that were used in the 70s police drama Hill Street Blues as the force were sent out on patrol - 'Let's be careful out there'.

great post.....well said......

[essox essox 2499]

On 6/17/2020 at 5:45 PM, SinCityGr8One said:

I've got Buddha and revered Monks on my dashboard and a pocket full of Amulets. What could possibly go wrong today?

need more than these.....!!!

[Airbagwill 1741]

9 minutes ago, digger70 said:

No I didn't Because that post with all the Information (just found it) Wasn't there when I Replied to you're post.

You Posted that Info Just after I posted .Both post where done at about Same time . Thank you for the information.

This info was there very early on and removed by a mod.

You just didn't read it 

Furthermore this is not the first thread on road safety on Thaivisa and there has been a plethora of posts on the topic.

Also Thaivisa is not the only source in the world for information on road safety... I would suggest that people familiarise themselves with the basics with a little home work before posting baseless and wildly inaccurate statements on these threads.

It is their responsibility to educate themselves

[Airbagwill 1741]

6 minutes ago, essox essox said:

we were taught at school

"look left and right and then right again"

No you weren't..  you were taught "left, right, left again" this all depends on the road rules of the country you were in.

This precaution was aimed at reducing "vulberable" deaths and was later modified by GreenCross code yo look all around which was found to be more effective.

It was an I stryction for pedestrians wanting to cross a road.

 

When driving in other countries the opposite would apply to those who driver on the rhs of the road. 

However in vehicles the practice can be different.

In countries across Europe for vehicles, the default rule gave priority to the right which meant that people in side roads had priority.

In Thailand the opposite applies and the default rule is that priority is on the left.

This means when someone comes out in front of you it is because they CAN .

This is a daft law and needs to be addressed but it leads to a lot of driving habits that many westerners are not aware of or prepared for.

[digger70 2444]

9 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

This info was there very early on and removed by a mod.

You just didn't read it 

Furthermore this is not the first thread on road safety on Thaivisa and there has been a plethora of posts on the topic.

Also Thaivisa is not the only source in the world for information on road safety... I would suggest that people familiarise themselves with the basics with a little home work before posting baseless and wildly inaccurate statements on these threads.

It is their responsibility to educate themselves

Can you Please be Not so Negative All the time . In the name of satan Be Quiet for a while .Be Positive for ones or Don't Post .  

[metisdead 9063]

9 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

This info was there very early on and removed by a mod.

You just didn't read it 

Furthermore this is not the first thread on road safety on Thaivisa and there has been a plethora of posts on the topic.

Also Thaivisa is not the only source in the world for information on road safety... I would suggest that people familiarise themselves with the basics with a little home work before posting baseless and wildly inaccurate statements on these threads.

It is their responsibility to educate themselves

 

 

Maybe your thesis should be presented to the Thai Authorities for review as you are not going to change Thai driving habits on this forum. This is not the Thai Driving Education forum. 

 

Topic closed.