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Thai road carnage: Monthly death toll already 616 - Year total well past 6,000


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16 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

 

The level of discussion on this topic is mind-bogglingly stultifying and mindless as ever....

 

So far, the posts seem to be falling into 5 predictable categories

 

1.     False Dichotomy - e.g. either Road Safety OR Covid

 

2.     Racist Thai remarks - “all Thai drivers are inherently dim/stupid/selfish/have no common sense”

 

3.     Irrelevant anecdotes - “I saw someone driving badly”

 

4.     Single issue solutions - “The problem is....Driving test/police/drink etc.

 

5.     Use of cynicism to hide ignorance - “nothings gonna change” “TIT”

 

 

No-one is showing even the slightest understanding of the problem.

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I am Glad you do . You just explain /Teach us How to Understand /Deal with The Problem.  :wai:

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Year on year the road fatality stats aren't getting any better so it would appear to be acceptable by the Govt. to have on average 40 people killed daily on the roads, and yet the country goes into ec

Apparently, this amount of deaths is more acceptible than having traffic laws and enforcement of them. 

Sigh. This country is hopeless. Even if the government would ban all road traffic, the shockingly inept drivers would still find a way to somehow kill each other off in droves, perhaps with plows, tra

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6 hours ago, digger70 said:

16 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

 

The level of discussion on this topic is mind-bogglingly stultifying and mindless as ever....

 

So far, the posts seem to be falling into 5 predictable categories

 

1.     False Dichotomy - e.g. either Road Safety OR Covid

 

2.     Racist Thai remarks - “all Thai drivers are inherently dim/stupid/selfish/have no common sense”

 

3.     Irrelevant anecdotes - “I saw someone driving badly”

 

4.     Single issue solutions - “The problem is....Driving test/police/drink etc.

 

5.     Use of cynicism to hide ignorance - “nothings gonna change” “TIT”

 

 

No-one is showing even the slightest understanding of the problem.

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I am Glad you do . You just explain /Teach us How to Understand /Deal with The Problem.  :wai:

It would be nice to think that people could educate themselves on this topic, especially before posting ill thought out nonsense.

 

you don't seem to realise that above are examples of how people fail to address the topic.

 

I have posted a huge amount of information on this myself, which it appears you haven't noticed - so QED and the post above.

Edited by Airbagwill
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10 hours ago, possum1931 said:

I don't think most of them are insured, there is no way any insurance company will ever take a hit in any way, but obviously they cannot force drivers and motorbike riders to take insurance out.

Insurance companies are - or should be -  the first to come to any incident.

In the event of any incident the very first thing to do is ring your insurance - they will quickly send out a guy to mediate between you the police and any third party. As a result of their diligence I have avoided all sorts of problems - and the other party was always insured too. Basically you and the other chap sit down and have a coffee whilst the 2 insurance agents sort it out between them

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Thailand has been given the answer, it is the “Safe System” approach to road safety. European countries as well as recently Australia and New Zealand have the lowest road casualty figures and for good reason.....

 

Many road safety organisations in Thai and ASEAN support and put forward this approach, but it has failed to get traction with those in power... It would seem, they still cling to archaic and outdated perceptions of road safety.

 

Judging by the posts on this thread, most people are still unaware of this system and adhere to outdated and incorrect perceptions of road safety.

“Traditionally in road safety, during the 1950s and 1960s, there was an assumption that the primary goal of road safety was to correct human behaviour, rather than acknowledge that the causes of crashes are related to the inherent risks of using the existing road infrastructure. At this time, the analysis of road crashes involved attempting to understand all of the factors involved in a collision in order to suggest ways in which it could have been prevented. “ - ROSPA - https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-services/road-safety/roads/safe-system.pdf

What is “Safe System” approach?

Although human error is a factor in most road incidents, the “Safe System” adopted all over Europe etc realises that there are limits to what you can do to limit human error - i.e. there are equal numbers of stupid drivers EVERYWHERE - not just Thailand.

So it works on the premise that the road system and the entire transport environment has to be fool-proof and it is a failure of the system that causes human error or other factors to lead to death and serious injury. People will always make mistakes but the target is to OMPLETELY eliminate deaths and serious injuries. So, rather than aim campaigns - short or long - it needs the implementation of a permanent “Vision Zero” policy that in Thailand’s case would reform the road safety environment from the bottom up. This system will reduce the seriousness of outcome of any incidents. Roads and associated environments will have a forgiving infrastructure to achieve this as in the 5 Es below.

Many road safety organisations in Thai and ASEAN support and put forward this approach, but it has failed to get grip with those in power... It would seem, they still cling to archaic and outdated perceptions of road safety as 

 

For over a decade Thailand with its “Road Safety Action Plan” has espoused the virtues of the 5 “E”s (it has to be said with little effect) ...............

 

1.     Education

2.    Enforcement

3.    Engineering

4.    Emergency

5.    Evaluation

 

1.     Education

This is fairly self-explanatory - people need to be told/shown how to drive and given the “tools” to share the road with other users - UK had several government TV campaigns in the 60s and 70s. Clever well thought out ads with a bit of humour that weren’t condescending and helped to establish the country as a safe place to drive. (Do you remember the elephant in the fog?).

The first people to educate in Thailand would be the police.

In th past countries like the USA had virtually no driving tests at all, but over the years driving testing and training has become more intensive. It has in Thailand but tests and training alone have little effect if drivers are then released into a lawless untrammelled environment. Driver behaviours is as much a result of experience as testing. Unfortunately most people are incapable of analysing and learning from experience without guidance. i.e. Media campaigns etc

 

2.     Enforcement

Again apparently self-explanatory - but not as simple as some would suggest.

Thailand has the added problem of ingrained corruption, graft and bribery which impedes this no matter how many laws are passed. The laws need to be reasonable, applicable and equitably enforced too.

It is also very hard to enforce laws on roads that aren’t properly laid out and without a legal/court system in place to deal with it.

 

3.   Engineering: - most critics of (Thai) road safety usually ignore this aspect of road safety.

a - Vehicle engineering - Safer car design and engineering: - car safety is both “passive” (seat belts, airbags and construction etc.) and “Active” (braking steering, handling, traction control etc.) these two are really interdependent now with so much computerised and hi-tech features on modern vehicles.

·      Anti-locking brakes

·      Traction control

·      Air-bags

·      Side impact bars

·      AVCSS - Advanced vehicle control and safety systems

·      More reliable engine, tyres and components

·      Vehicle dynamics in general (vary from UK and Thailand)

Of course roadworthiness checks are vital - but largely unenforced in Thailand.

 

b - Road Engineering   - 

For years, Thailand has had a policy of building roads that are poorly engineered designed and executed. They encourage fast driving and extra traffic but have little or no regard for the safety aspects of road building

 The design and construction on the roads, bridges, junction, road surface, camber, drainage etc.  

·      The use of barriers (e.g. Armco), the removal of roadside hazards - e.g. trees or boulders on the side and centre of roads. The clearing of billboards and vegetation that obscure drivers’ vision 

·      Traffic - the use of lines, signs, bollards etc. etc. to dictate how and where the traffic flows and at what speed - virtually non-excitant in Thailand and seldom noticed by drivers in countries that make good use of it.

·      The use of barriers (e.g. Armco), the removal of trees from the side and centre of roads. The clearing of billboards and vegetation that obscure drivers’ vision.

·      Better infrastructure and engineering

·      Better road surfaces

·      Better signage

·      More forgiving 

·      Traffic calming

·      Shared space - keeping various road users apart is key to safety in some situations - if they are separated they can’t collide.

Like so many things on the roads in Thailand, the only reason that U-Turns happen is because the roads ALLOW it.... this is an engineering problem (and cost), not so much a driver problem.

 

4.     Emergency

- What happens in the event of injury... this is a major factor in who lives or dies.

It has been well documented that the time between accident and getting treatment is crucial in the survival of RTI victims. 

Treatment on the scene and reducing the time it takes to get the patient to hospital is vital. Thailand still has NO EFECTIVE UNIVERSAL EMERGENCY SERVICE!!

 

5.     Evaluation

 - How do we ascertain if measures are effective and what new ideas can be implemented.

Individual RTIs are examined scientifically in minute detail.

Statistics are gathered on every reported incident

Most governments have agencies of some sort that after engaging any road scheme, whether it is construction or a safety campaign, review in detail every aspect of that project; effects on local population, environment, accident statistics etc. etc.  Statistics are gathered and monitored and appropriate action taken. - 

Whereas Thailand may nominally have such bodies their effectiveness is just about zero. Road safety in Thailand is left largely to ill-thought out, baseless pronouncements made by members of the government with little better to do.

 

 

All these “Es” are interdependent, you can't have one without the other, so if you still cling to racist concepts about Thai people’s driving, or think that just telling he police “to do their Job” or any other single issue is the solution, you are sadly barking up the wrong tree.

What is required is a holistic long-term overhaul of the entire transport system.

Edited by Airbagwill
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Thailand seems to have none of the Es. Probably why it's the 2nd most dangerous country (after Libya) in re road safety (so I have heard). 

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2 hours ago, JCP108 said:

Thailand seems to have none of the Es. Probably why it's the 2nd most dangerous country (after Libya) in re road safety (so I have heard). 

Yes- Thailand falls short on every aspect.

 

however when qualifying "dangerous" roads one needs to look at all the stats not just the single bulk road deaths per 100k.

If you check the WHO web site where most of the figures come from you'll see there are many different ways of looking - as in 2 categories of injury,,,,miles travelled, number of vehicles etc etc

However if you just use the deaths per 100k, you'll soon see that as vulnerable road users (stistical definition) are 85 of total and 2-wheeled vehicles are 73% of total when you look at 4 wheeled private vehicles (cars, pickups) they death rate actually falls below that of the USA national average.

 

the 5th E is evaluation and that is how Western countries have learned how to address the road safety issues they faced. This is something that Thailand has failed at dimly - the collection collation and interpretation of figures is just incompetent and incomplete so the picture is very unfocused. They don't even have the 3 categories of incident - fatal, serious and minor.....so it is almost impossible to take any appropriate action.

This is underlined by the repeated annual pronouncements dictums and campaigns by successive governments, but yet the death toll apparently continues to rise.

The cost to the nation is about 3% of GDP - so no-one's making money out of this in the long run.

 

 

 

WHO road safety reports - https://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/road_safety_status/2018/en/

 

I would also suggest you check how they compile their stats, because there is a lot of nonsense  on this talked about how they are compiled.

Edited by Airbagwill
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Well yes, road accident in Thailand needs to alot of hard work to improve. Thai are stupid in that aspects.

 

but dont try to downplay the covid situation management  in Thailand. 

 

compare to the stupidity in most of the west in this pandemic causing people dying like worthless animal. Especially the UK is being one of the most stupidest in both people and government but no surprise for me judging from the comnents I read in TVF.

Edited by Ratchsima
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On 6/17/2020 at 7:46 PM, Airbagwill said:

 

The level of discussion on this topic is mind-bogglingly stultifying and mindless as ever....

 

So far, the posts seem to be falling into 5 predictable categories

 

1.     False Dichotomy - e.g. either Road Safety OR Covid

 

2.     Racist Thai remarks - “all Thai drivers are inherently dim/stupid/selfish/have no common sense”

 

3.     Irrelevant anecdotes - “I saw someone driving badly”

 

4.     Single issue solutions - “The problem is....Driving test/police/drink etc.

 

5.     Use of cynicism to hide ignorance - “nothings gonna change” “TIT”

 

 

No-one is showing even the slightest understanding of the problem

 

 

Number 2 gets my vote. :cheesy:

 

 

Edited by quake
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On 6/17/2020 at 4:42 PM, onelongvacation said:

The entire country is shut down and the economy crippled for 58 deaths from Covid but nothing is done when 6000 die and hundreds of thousands are maimed or injured in 5 months.

The world is watching with regards to the first thing. The second one, not so much.

 

Show, show, show & Face pretty much sums it all up here unfortunately. 🙂

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On 6/18/2020 at 2:59 AM, possum1931 said:

To be honest here, I don't think the Thai government are as money mad as the UK government where traffic are concerned. Road tax, fuel tax, over the top MOT system, etc, etc, etc.

The reduction in deaths and injury SAVES money. Costs of road deaths and injuries in Thailand account for 3% of GDP.

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2 hours ago, thequietman said:

The world is watching with regards to the first thing. The second one, not so much.

 

Show, show, show & Face pretty much sums it all up here unfortunately. 🙂

Example of false dichotomy.

You might want to include such things as liver cancer rates or infant deaths, where Thailand is nearly 5 times higher than Japan.

It simply isn't a case of one or the other.

Are you suggesting that Thailand should have done nothing about Covid or the measures didn't work? ..or that prevention of road deaths could be accomplished as quickly...or that a massive long term reduction in traffic would, although probably effective, not have any effect on the economy. When have seen what just a few weeks can do.

The prevention of Covid in Thailand appears to have relied on a few relatively simple short term solutions...... road safety requires a massive long term sea-change lasting for years, decades, even. The 2 issues are simply not connected in any way.

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On 6/18/2020 at 8:36 AM, possum1931 said:

I don't think most of them are insured, there is no way any insurance company will ever take a hit in any way, but obviously they cannot force drivers and motorbike riders to take insurance out.

but it is THE LAW to have insurance for any vehicle to be on the roads.......

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