SURVEY: High end tourists—good idea or a flop?

[Peterw42]

9 minutes ago, LennyW said:

Apparently there has been a huge uptake on the Elite visa options recently......all by "wealthy" Chinese, so maybe it is about to happen!

People buying 5 year visa's probably wont be poping up on any tourism statistics. They would be living here, not staying in hotels and visiting tourist attractions.

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, Peterw42 said:

Interested to know what constitutes a "high end" tourist ? Room rate ? daily spend ? Spend the money at a corporation or spend the money at a local market or restaurant.

 

I have seen backpackers that will spend 500 a day on a room, then 2,000 a day on beer and partying. Or people that spend 2,000 a day on a room, then 500 a day on the hotel buffet for dinner. Your average 2 week millionaire sex tourist probably outspends all of them.

 

'High-End' Tourists...  its one of those ‘Thai-isms’ which get thrown around so much that Westers in Thailand start using them... 

 

Just like describing people who don’t work on a farm in learn as ‘Hi-So’, anything other than a scooter as a ‘Big-Bike’.....

 

Money comes in from tourism....  wealthy tourists or backbackers, it shouldn’t really matter - they all contribute in some way or form to individual aspects of the the 17.7% of GDP accounted for by tourism. 

[thaibeachlovers]

4 minutes ago, pineapple01 said:

Why any interest in what workers make. Nothing to do with You.

If we all cared about each other the world would be a wonderful place. The attitude that workers are nothing to do with "us" is, IMO, why western factory owners exported all their jobs to China so they could exploit the workers and make even more millions.

The exploitation of the workers is part of the reason I prefer to stay in cheap places where more of my money goes to the staff than in an expensive place where a corporation gets most of my money.

Edited June 30, 2020 by thaibeachlovers

[pineapple01]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If we all cared about each other the world would be a wonderful place. The attitude that workers are nothing to do with "us" is, IMO, why western factory owners exported all their jobs to China so they could exploit the workers and make even more millions.

The exploitation of the workers is part of the reason I prefer to stay in cheap places where more of my money goes to the staff than in an expensive place where a corporation gets most of my money.

Lefty Garbage imo.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

'High-End' Tourists...  its one of those ‘Thai-isms’ which get thrown around so much that Westers in Thailand start using them... 

 

Just like describing people who don’t work on a farm in learn as ‘Hi-So’, anything other than a scooter as a ‘Big-Bike’.....

 

Money comes in from tourism....  wealthy tourists or backbackers, it shouldn’t really matter - they all contribute in some way or form to individual aspects of the the 17.7% of GDP accounted for by tourism. 

True in many respects, but low end tourism employs far more locals than hi end does. If all the low end places ceased to exist, the tourists that stay in those places are not going to stay in expensive places instead- they'll go to Vietnam or Cambodia.

[Trillian]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

True in many respects, but low end tourism employs far more locals than hi end does. If all the low end places ceased to exist, the tourists that stay in those places are not going to stay in expensive places instead- they'll go to Vietnam or Cambodia.

Hmmm, I'm not sure about that. I think the quality levels of staff improves in the 5* hotels, certainly English language proficiency and attitude to and understanding of customer service are usually much better. You could argue that the more expensive hotels are  raising standards across the board which in itself is strategically important to the country's economy. If those 5*'s didn't exist with their standards, the same poor quality would exist across the board and nothing would change.

 

Anyway, it looks like the emoticon clickers have entered the debate, time to go. 

[Peterw42]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

True in many respects, but low end tourism employs far more locals than hi end does. If all the low end places ceased to exist, the tourists that stay in those places are not going to stay in expensive places instead- they'll go to Vietnam or Cambodia.

Not sure if I agree that the low end employs more people, its still only one person cleans one room or one person cooks one meal. in a low end place its often the same person checks you in, cleans your room, cooks your breakfast etc. In a high end place that is 3 separate people. 

[PingRoundTheWorld]

7 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Your average 2 week millionaire sex tourist probably outspends all of them.

This is a point worth repeating. All the retired folks here love hating on them, but the tourists who spend the most money are those who comes for the girls and nightlife. No other category including the "wealthy" Chinese outspends a sex tourist on a mission, lol.

[Trillian]

5 minutes ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

This is a point worth repeating. All the retired folks here love hating on them, but the tourists who spend the most money are those who comes for the girls and nightlife. No other category including the "wealthy" Chinese outspends a sex tourist on a mission, lol.

What would you guess, as a percentage of the total number of tourists OR as percentage of money spent, is the value of the sex tourism you're describing? Is it 30% of all tourists/income, 60%, 90%, how much? If it helps you, use 40 million tourists and/or $60 billion in revenue for the total numbers.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Trillian

[Peterw42]

1 minute ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

This is a point worth repeating. All the retired folks here love hating on them, but the tourists who spend the most money are those who comes for the girls and nightlife. No other category including the "wealthy" Chinese outspends a sex tourist on a mission, lol.

Yes they spend etc but there just isnt that many nowadays, its a shrinking market share.

Economies of scale, a pool of 1.4 billion people with an average spend or a pool of a couple of million with a high spend.

[PingRoundTheWorld]

3 minutes ago, Trillian said:

What would you guess, as a percentage of the total number of tourists OR as percentage of money spent, is the value of the sex tourism you're describing? Is it 30% of all tourists/income, 60%, 90%, how much?

I couldn't begin to guess, but revenue-wise I'd assume the majority of tourist money flowing (in the past) to Thailand was linked to "sex tourism" in one way or another. The definition is rather broad if you include people who aren't exactly "sex tourists" but do engage in the nightlife (think a couple on a getaway who also visit some gogo bars or nightclubs - whether they realize exactly what goes on in there or ride the rides is irrelevant). Either way - my point was that this kind of tourist is the biggest spender, so if you want to reduce overall numbers and maximize revenue, well...

[Peterw42]

4 minutes ago, Trillian said:

What would you guess, as a percentage of the total number of tourists OR as percentage of money spent, is the value of the sex tourism you're describing? Is it 30% of all tourists/income, 60%, 90%, how much? If it helps you, use 40 million tourists and/or $60 billion in revenue for the total numbers.

Interesting question, I think the reality is far lower than the perception/belief.

It depends who you ask, go to soi sexpat and ask the guys on the barstools, they will tell you that they alone are propping up the Thai economy.

Personally, I think its way smaller than people think. 

[PingRoundTheWorld]

13 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Yes they spend etc but there just isnt that many nowadays, its a shrinking market share.

Economies of scale, a pool of 1.4 billion people with an average spend or a pool of a couple of million with a high spend.

China, Japan, South Korea, India all have their fair share of sex tourists. Last few times I've been to Pattaya (some) bars were full of Chinese. If you go to Insanity or Thermae in Bangkok almost every guy is Asian. There may be less westerners, but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of thirsty Asian guys to replace them.

[Prairieboy]

And just how will the government or TAT determine who is a high end tourist and who is not.  Will one have to catty a notarized bank statement along with your passport? 

[Trillian]

20 minutes ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

I couldn't begin to guess, but revenue-wise I'd assume the majority of tourist money flowing (in the past) to Thailand was linked to "sex tourism" in one way or another. The definition is rather broad if you include people who aren't exactly "sex tourists" but do engage in the nightlife (think a couple on a getaway who also visit some gogo bars or nightclubs - whether they realize exactly what goes on in there or ride the rides is irrelevant). Either way - my point was that this kind of tourist is the biggest spender, so if you want to reduce overall numbers and maximize revenue, well...

I think that number is very small, it's only the generations that followed the now jaded Pattaya and Patpong model that account for that spend. The trouble is those people don't see the other sectors who are spending much much more heavily.

[Trillian]

23 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Interesting question, I think the reality is far lower than the perception/belief.

It depends who you ask, go to soi sexpat and ask the guys on the barstools, they will tell you that they alone are propping up the Thai economy.

Personally, I think its way smaller than people think. 

Me too, as a percentage of GDP or total tourism I think it's infinitesimally small.

[CrunchWrapSupreme]

On 6/28/2020 at 4:35 PM, chang1 said:

Many jobs rely on tourism but only a tiny fraction of them can be connected to the high end market.

The main factor which will absolutely insure Thailand's well enriched place as a cheap destination, it its world leading wealth inequality. The vast number of Thais directly or indirectly dependent on the flow of tourists, desperate for their business, will continue to offer hospitality at an attractive price. Despite all the complaints to the contrary, there is still plenty of cheap food, cheap accommodations, and of course the "entertainment".

 

Yes, there are high end positions in this industry, like chefs, management, and those catering to the high end tourists, but they're certainly the minority. The vast majority are the hotel and restaurant workers, cleaners, drivers, guides, etc., who my wife's extended family are in, mostly taking in around 9k, topping out at about 12k. Then there are the many "entertainers", who take either occasional payments or ongoing arrangements, in which appliances, vehicles, and home improvements are purchased for the poor families of Issan. It's huge, but never shows up in the official numbers, and the officials of course deny it exists.

 

Will their situation ever improve? Will they ever be given better education, better jobs, higher salaries? Could all those lovely ladies ever be working in offices, or the guys doing more skilled labor instead of pushing tractors? I don't see it happening. I think the Thai hi-sos like very much just where they are. They get to be so hi-so, because of that distance they maintain. I see it in the dramas my wife loves watching, the ridiculously beautiful people in their palaces, with servants groveling at their feet. I've also had the misfortune of working with such people, and experiencing that attitude.

 

So, until better alternatives arise for the lower class, which are continually denied to them by the upper class, they must continue to rely upon lower end work, which is what reaffirms Thailand's reputation.

[pattayadgw]

A friend had his retirement visa renewed in Phuket end of last week... he has money in the bank for it.  For the first time ever he said they fingerprinted and photographed him.  This could well put a squeeze on those using agents and forcing agents fees to be higher and thus pushing out those on pensions who have been hard hit by the strong baht.  This will then wipe out a lot of the long term older folks and force them to relocate and make room for the wealthier... ie: not rich but more flush with funds than just a pension to live off.....SAD!!  these thousands of people in this position still put a lot of cash into the system... every day!!

[Trillian]

7 hours ago, CrunchWrapSupreme said:

Yes, there are high end positions in this industry, like chefs, management, and those catering to the high end tourists, but they're certainly the minority. The vast majority are the hotel and restaurant workers, cleaners, drivers, guides, etc., who my wife's extended family are in, mostly taking in around 9k, topping out at about 12k.

Some very approximate calculations for you:

 

Let's say there's 150 truly 5* hotels in Thailand, I found 136 without hardly trying.

https://www.fivestaralliance.com/luxury-hotels/127/asia/thailand

 

Typically the ratio of staff to rooms in a 5 star is between 2 and 3 per room so for a 100 room hotel that's about 250 staff work at the hotel. 

 

Virtually all 5* hotels pay their staff salary, plus benefits plus a share of the Service Charge, the latter can easily work out to be 35,000 per month on average every month, that's for everyone who works there, cleaners, receptionists, gardners etc etc - salary is usually between 12k and 15k except for higher paid management positions and skilled chefs etc.

 

That model shows that 5* hotels have a wage bill of around 12.5 mill. Baht per month, multiply that by 136, 5* hotels and that's the value (room costs only) to the Thai economy of having the wealthy tourists visit and that's the value of income to middle class Thai people. 

 

 

 

 

[DrTuner]

7 hours ago, CrunchWrapSupreme said:

Will their situation ever improve? Will they ever be given better education, better jobs, higher salaries?

Education is a no-no as long as the usurpers are in power. We've seen who their archenemies are: the university students. 

 

And hence it shall remain a cheapo destination run by hapless peasants.

[kingdong]

10 hours ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

This is a point worth repeating. All the retired folks here love hating on them, but the tourists who spend the most money are those who comes for the girls and nightlife. No other category including the "wealthy" Chinese outspends a sex tourist on a mission, lol.

many a true word spoken in jest.

[thaibeachlovers]

21 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Not sure if I agree that the low end employs more people, its still only one person cleans one room or one person cooks one meal. in a low end place its often the same person checks you in, cleans your room, cooks your breakfast etc. In a high end place that is 3 separate people. 

How much experience do you have with cheap places? That's incorrect. The reception staff never cleaned the rooms I stayed in because no one cleans the rooms ( beach accommodation ), and they certainly didn't make the meals as people were coming and going all the time.

Even in cheap city hotels and guesthouses how could the receptionist be cleaning the rooms, making meals and checking people in and out/ answering the phone at the same time. Even a small place takes the cleaner/s all day to do their job.

 

Yes, one person cleans one room, but there are thousands of cheap rooms in LOS for each expensive one. Your claim does not stand against reality.

Edited June 30, 2020 by thaibeachlovers

[thaibeachlovers]

12 hours ago, Trillian said:

Some very approximate calculations for you:

 

Let's say there's 150 truly 5* hotels in Thailand, I found 136 without hardly trying.

https://www.fivestaralliance.com/luxury-hotels/127/asia/thailand

 

Typically the ratio of staff to rooms in a 5 star is between 2 and 3 per room so for a 100 room hotel that's about 250 staff work at the hotel. 

 

Virtually all 5* hotels pay their staff salary, plus benefits plus a share of the Service Charge, the latter can easily work out to be 35,000 per month on average every month, that's for everyone who works there, cleaners, receptionists, gardners etc etc - salary is usually between 12k and 15k except for higher paid management positions and skilled chefs etc.

 

That model shows that 5* hotels have a wage bill of around 12.5 mill. Baht per month, multiply that by 136, 5* hotels and that's the value (room costs only) to the Thai economy of having the wealthy tourists visit and that's the value of income to middle class Thai people. 

 

 

 

 

150 5* hotels- OK. There's MILLIONS of cheap places counting every small no * hotel, every guest house, every private home taking guests, every condo with farangs etc. Tell me that they make less overall than 5* places.....................................

BTW, the money low end earns goes to low end Thais and none to corporate greedies. Low end accommodation is by far more beneficial to low end Thais than high end Thais.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, pattayadgw said:

A friend had his retirement visa renewed in Phuket end of last week... he has money in the bank for it.  For the first time ever he said they fingerprinted and photographed him.  This could well put a squeeze on those using agents and forcing agents fees to be higher and thus pushing out those on pensions who have been hard hit by the strong baht.  This will then wipe out a lot of the long term older folks and force them to relocate and make room for the wealthier... ie: not rich but more flush with funds than just a pension to live off.....SAD!!  these thousands of people in this position still put a lot of cash into the system... every day!!

I was in the position of having to decide whether to stay in LOS without insurance or return home. I went home. NO FARANG has any RIGHT to live in LOS unless they have PR or became a citizen. Either they can afford to do so under whatever rules the Thais want to impose or go home and stop complaining because they didn't take steps to be able to stay.

Who said life was fair?

[thaibeachlovers]

21 hours ago, Trillian said:

Me too, as a percentage of GDP or total tourism I think it's infinitesimally small.

Smaller than infetisimal. As a % of the Thai GDP it's almost invisible.

Pattaya and Patong and 3 tiny areas of Bkk and that's it. No one goes to Chiang Mai and Hua Hin for the nightlife.

Probably the Malaysian cohort visiting the south transfer more wealth than most realise, but it's not visible like the farang nightlife. Thaniya used to be a big earner, but seems the Japanese are a spent force in LOS.

[pineapple01]

Idsay Lifes Fair, Useless live in poverty, hard workers retire very well.

[Trillian]

14 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

150 5* hotels- OK. There's MILLIONS of cheap places counting every small no * hotel, every guest house, every private home taking guests, every condo with farangs etc. Tell me that they make less overall than 5* places.....................................

BTW, the money low end earns goes to low end Thais and none to corporate greedies. Low end accommodation is by far more beneficial to low end Thais than high end Thais.

Oh dear! The wage bill for one 5* runs to 12.5 mill Baht per month, that's money going straight into the pockets of local Thai's. The wage bill from a small no star hotel employing a dozen people at 12k per month is 144,000 Baht, the rest of the profit goes into the owners pockets...Wake up!

[thaibeachlovers]

21 hours ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

I couldn't begin to guess, but revenue-wise I'd assume the majority of tourist money flowing (in the past) to Thailand was linked to "sex tourism" in one way or another. The definition is rather broad if you include people who aren't exactly "sex tourists" but do engage in the nightlife (think a couple on a getaway who also visit some gogo bars or nightclubs - whether they realize exactly what goes on in there or ride the rides is irrelevant). Either way - my point was that this kind of tourist is the biggest spender, so if you want to reduce overall numbers and maximize revenue, well...

Sorry, but not so, though every sexpat likes to think they are personally keeping Thailand in business.

The biggest demographic of western tourist arrives on a package tour, stays in a flash hotel and the closest they get to sex is perhaps a visit to a gogo or Walking Street. A major tourist destination is Chiang Mai and the sex industry there certainly doesn't benefit from them. Many go to the beaches, and other than Patong, the nightlife is small, expensive and irrelevant.

 

In the past a major, IMO, source of overseas money coming into LOS was farangs marrying Thai women, but times change and IMO that is no longer as big as it was just a decade ago.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 minutes ago, Trillian said:

Oh dear! The wage bill for one 5* runs to 12.5 mill Baht per month, that's money going straight into the pockets of local Thai's. The wage bill from a small no star hotel employing a dozen people at 12k per month is 144,000 Baht, the rest of the profit goes into the owners pockets...Wake up!

LOL.

I don't know how many small accommodation places there are in LOS, but several million workers employed at least. Several million at whatever they earn a month beats the few that make more in 5* places.

Edited June 30, 2020 by thaibeachlovers

[thaibeachlovers]

7 minutes ago, pineapple01 said:

Idsay Lifes Fair, Useless live in poverty, hard workers retire very well.

Rubbish. I worked my butt off and didn't retire well. The richest are people in such as finance and they don't work very hard at all.