Trauma, abuse for Thai elephants taught tricks for tourists, charity says

[holy cow cm]

8 hours ago, wotsdermatter said:

Try getting an elephant bag with the remains of your meal at a restaurant just like in the west when they ask for a doggie bag.

Look at the blood near the right ear and see if that confirms your statement about the bull hook being only used as a guide.

'nuf sed.

With the USA Ca portions of food you absolutely need an elephant bag. One restaurant serving is enough for 2 meals for me. 

[canopy]

Bull hooks are used in Thailand on adult elephants to inflict pain. Some tourists are known to get off the elephants and walk because they are shocked and appalled seeing the mahout stabbing and hurting the elephant. The elephant polo event was taken down in 2018 because a mahout was caught red handed beating his elephant during training even though it was against the rules and he signed not to do it. Barnum and Baileys circus closed in 2017 due to not finding a way to treat elephants well enough. Yet in Thailand many elephants are cruelly tortured from a young age at the crush and throughout their careers for nothing more than pleasing man which is sick.

 

The future of elephant tourism shouldn't involve training and a bunch of people riding on the backs of a wild animal. Leave the elephants alone. Let the tourists lend a hand doing something useful to improve their well being and habitat so they can thrive and live a stress free, cruelty free life. To borrow a similar phrase don't ask what the elephant can do for you, but what you can do for the elephant.

 

[innosiem]

How would we prevent the elephants from becoming extinct once there is zero demand for them ?

while, i do not really agree with trick performing animals
it does all boil down to the treatment and training techniques
if these are above board, then such is fine and good for the species existence,
i also understand how such news is constantly being staged to push agendas

the problem i see is if there is no demand for elephants for tourist attractions
they will eventually die off here, which would be sad.

Someone please explain to me
if performing tricks is any different to being used as a tool for construction say ?
like elephants used to be used

as i am not inclined to see a show
i would definitely be keen to visit a place that used elephants (and hand tools) to build a village
instead of using today's fossil fueled machinery 
or would people consider this traditional use just the same or even worse than a show performance ?

[canopy]

Thailand has over 3000 elephants in the wild. Their existence is not at all pinned to entertaining in tourist areas and in fact quite the opposite. Young elephants are captured and illegally imported to Thailand from Myanmar for use in the tourism industry (source). So tourism actually accelerates depletion of Asian elephants in the wild. All we need to do is provide plenty of undisturbed habitat and elephants will thrive there. It's very easy if the will is there.

 

Working elephants have pros and cons. One problem that led to banishing working elephants is the mahouts gave them amphetamines to work harder which is sad to make them into drug addicts. If elephants could be humanely trained and work like a water buffalo plowing a field there would be benefits to be sure. Machine logging needs access roads built where elephants don't. Machines are polluting, expensive and disruptive scarring the earth much more than an elephant walking in and picking a tree. But I just don't see this ever being realistic. All the farmers happily scrapped their buffalo for machines and never looked back. Loggers the same. Also elephants are wild animals and really that's where they should be.

 

[jak2002003]

On 6/30/2020 at 7:12 AM, brownrabbit said:

So why no names? Location?  Read about this in 4 different publications now but no location on names given once.

 

 

You have to ask?  It would be too dangerous for the people who exposed this.  They would likely be arrested and charged with damaging Thailand's image, defamation, or be silenced by the people with vested interests in the elephant camps.

 

21 hours ago, rob63 said:

There is a lot of hypocrisy in the previous comments. Your cows, pigs and chickens endure much worse. Then you point the finger at somebody else's country. Clean up your act in your own country before you comment on somebody else's country.

That is not right.  There are laws governing how farm animals are raised and treated.  We do not starve, beat with metal hooks, or hobble a cow or pig for weeks on end while torturing them.  

 

18 hours ago, brownrabbit said:

Care to share the reading?  Not sensationalist animal rights pieces or blogposts from someone from the West who has spent a week "finding themselves" volunteering at an elephant sanctuary - but actual experts in captive elephant care describing how and why mahouts who love their elephants (and many regard as family) would see this as normal practice.  

I could not see any information about the torture of baby elephants to break them on the elephant camp sites... do you think they would advertise that?  Where else to see this kind of thing if not an animals rights organisation?

 

I don't know what kind of sick individual would torture their children like they are doing to this elephant, or use meal bull hooks daily on their wives to control them in times of emergency.  

Edited July 1, 2020 by jak2002003

[Mick501]

18 hours ago, brownrabbit said:

Care to share the reading?  Not sensationalist animal rights pieces or blogposts from someone from the West who has spent a week "finding themselves" volunteering at an elephant sanctuary - but actual experts in captive elephant care describing how and why mahouts who love their elephants (and many regard as family) would see this as normal practice.  

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2019/06/global-wildlife-tourism-social-media-causes-animal-suffering/

 

 

hopefully National Geographic will meet with your discerning standards, but there are any number of similar articles from other sources.  

 

On on the subject of mahouts carrying a bull hook, do you really think the elephant would be scared of it if it had not been from learned experience?  If it were not used to repeatedly abuse them, they would see it as just another stick.

[VocalNeal]

19 hours ago, chainarong said:

The video clips are not fake,  they showed us on the OZ news the little elephant baby being taken away and its mother crying and the baby crying, basically you never separate a mother and baby elephant, its a part of the pack , 

Surely better for the young one to follow mother and learn the trade? 

[innosiem]

27 minutes ago, canopy said:

Thailand has over 3000 elephants in the wild. Their existence is not at all pinned to entertaining in tourist areas and in fact quite the opposite. Young elephants are captured and illegally imported to Thailand from Myanmar for use in the tourism industry (source). So tourism actually accelerates depletion of Asian elephants in the wild. All we need to do is provide plenty of undisturbed habitat and elephants will thrive there. It's very easy if the will is there.

 

Working elephants have pros and cons. One problem that led to banishing working elephants is the mahouts gave them amphetamines to work harder which is sad to make them into drug addicts. If elephants could be humanely trained and work like a water buffalo plowing a field there would be benefits to be sure. Machine logging needs access roads built where elephants don't. Machines are polluting, expensive and disruptive scarring the earth much more than an elephant walking in and picking a tree. But I just don't see this ever being realistic. All the farmers happily scrapped their buffalo for machines and never looked back. Loggers the same. Also elephants are wild animals and really that's where they should be.

 

While i do agree with what you say, numbers are off slightly,
yes it would be nice if the national parks were actually kept for wildlife and not turned into tourist spots
but solely relying on this to happen today and in future is doubtful

It seems the majority of elephants in Thailand have been captive for a long time, 
either way captive elephants do outweigh wild elephants today
just a shame there is nothing to say whether the increase in captive elephants are from captive births,
or from wild elephants being captured

"In the early-1900s there were an estimated 100,000 domesticated or captive elephants in Thailand.^[3] In mid-2007 there were an estimated 3,456 domesticated elephants left in Thailand and roughly a thousand wild elephants. By 2017 the number of captive elephants had risen to an estimated 3,783."

"Logging was banned in Thailand in 1989. Logging had been the primary occupation of Thai elephants and their mahouts. After the ban, elephants trainers had to find other ways to feed themselves and their elephants. Most of them turned to the entertainment industry and tourism."

Source

[hotchilli]

22 hours ago, brownrabbit said:

The bullhook is used as a guide. Having one allows mahouts to have a tool that can be employed if the urgent need arises - often to ensure their safety, the safety of those around them, and the safety of elephants themselves.

That's a bit like saying a sharp stick is okay to poke something to get it to go in a certain direction, a bullhook is not a safety measure.. if the elephant started to play-up it would be useless.

[finnsk]

It is not ok to keep on with this elephant torture.

 

I will understand that there is a lot of already trained elephants, at first used in the forrest industry and later when most of the forrest industry closed down, they have to find other ways to pay the food and ended in the tourist industry. This is history, as we can not change, we had to give these elephants a helping hand to give them a better life in a reliable jungle camp.

 

An elephant can get very old up to 80 years i am informed, so the problem is not solved in a year or two.

 

But I am choked to see that some thais is keeping on with torture training of baby elephants to the tourist industry, then the story will never ends.

 

 

[Oziex1]

19 hours ago, mok199 said:

Hopefully the day will come ,when people like this get their comeuppance....

Hopefully when they go broke from the enlightened tourist who abores and refuses to support this outdated form of entertainment.

[Mick501]

5 hours ago, innosiem said:

How would we prevent the elephants from becoming extinct once there is zero demand for them ?

while, i do not really agree with trick performing animals
it does all boil down to the treatment and training techniques
if these are above board, then such is fine and good for the species existence,
i also understand how such news is constantly being staged to push agendas

the problem i see is if there is no demand for elephants for tourist attractions
they will eventually die off here, which would be sad.

Someone please explain to me
if performing tricks is any different to being used as a tool for construction say ?
like elephants used to be used

as i am not inclined to see a show
i would definitely be keen to visit a place that used elephants (and hand tools) to build a village
instead of using today's fossil fueled machinery 
or would people consider this traditional use just the same or even worse than a show performance ?

Elephants used in industry are trained and abused in the same manner, and they are even worse off as there is very little down time.  Their whole life consists of pulling heavy objects from sun up to sun down.  Then they die.

 

as for going extinct, there are several thousand wild elephants in Thai national parks alone.   The laws protecting them seem to already be in place, but more could be done to enforce those laws.  Africa seems to be able to manage it reasonably well, so no reason that can't be duplicated here.   Visiting Thailand to see wild elephants is not necessarily at the top of everyone's list, but it certainly could be were it marketed as successfully as in some African countries.

 

on a side note, it is not uncommon that an entire herd is killed so that poachers can take the younger elephants and babies for human use.  The incentive for that kind of atrocity would disappear if human use of elephants were prohibited.

 

its just a matter of time until it happens.  Like many other practices from bygone eras, the used by date has expired.  When enough people realise what the elephants go through for the person to get a holiday selfie, there will be a turning point.  There's already increased awareness in western countries.  Tricky bit will be educating the Chnese tourists.

[brownrabbit]

5 hours ago, Mick501 said:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2019/06/global-wildlife-tourism-social-media-causes-animal-suffering/

 

 

hopefully National Geographic will meet with your discerning standards, but there are any number of similar articles from other sources.  

 

On on the subject of mahouts carrying a bull hook, do you really think the elephant would be scared of it if it had not been from learned experience?  If it were not used to repeatedly abuse them, they would see it as just another stick.

I've read that before and no - National Geographic is like saying its the BBC.  Don't question it.  I shall. I am more than happy to provide some actual readings and quotes from experts who work with elephants on the ground. 

 

What I will ask here is how would you urgently move an elephant that has been freaked out by a dog? As is the case of just one elephant I know.  So her safety and the safety of those around her is paramount here. Offer her some bananas and sweetly whisper in her ear to move her out of harm's way?

 

You evidently do not work with elephants.  Again it's quite simple - you can go the route of saying NO BULLHOOK and then you have deaths on your hands (though you probably think that is good as you imagine all mahouts are sick elephant abusers), or you can accept that if the urgent and essential need arises, a bullhook may be required to help ensure the safety of those nearby, the mahout, and indeed the elephant themselves. 

 

Going back to the police and gun analogy. Just because an officer may carry a gun for safety and protection, does not mean they use it.  Could someone use a bullhook cruelly? Yes.  Is the existence of this tool mahouts have carried for hundreds of years proof of abuse? No.  I've spent time with many mahouts who carry bullhooks.  ALL the mahouts at TECC carry bullhooks.  If they are abusing their elephants they have hidden the non-existent wounds pretty well - especially they are open to the public and host hundreds of visitors each day.  Likewise the mahouts I've spent time with in Chiang Mai province.  When you regard elephants as family, harming them is the last thing you would think about doing. 

 

Again, just because an officer carries a gun, does not mean all officers are trigger happy murderers.  Does that help?

 

Do not make this a black and white issue. It is evidently not.

 

So to put this back on you. What should a mahout use instead of a bullhook as a guide?  How would you move an elephant of the urgent need arose to ensure the safety of other elephants, animals, humans and yourself? How would you guide and move an elephant it the elephant's health and well-being depended on it? For example when needing medical care. 

 

Sugar cubes?  

 

Also, you are aware that many mahouts (including some very experienced) have lost their lives and NOT had a bullhook...mainly because of such harmful claims that bullhooks are solely tools of abuse and torture. Elephant Nature Park has seen at least two mahouts lose their lives and claims to operate a "no hooks, no chains" haven for elephants.  But again I guess those lived are dispensable. 

 

Boon Lot - a haven for Western elephant saviours who do not want to see mahouts with a bullhook also recently lost a very experienced mahout, guess what,  no bullhook.

 

Hope seeing how complex it is and how simplying such things can really be dangerous...indeed it literally can be a matter of life and death. 

[Mick501]

18 minutes ago, brownrabbit said:

I've read that before and no - National Geographic is like saying its the BBC.  Don't question it.  I shall. I am more than happy to provide some actual readings and quotes from experts who work with elephants on the ground. 

 

What I will ask here is how would you urgently move an elephant that has been freaked out by a dog? As is the case of just one elephant I know.  So her safety and the safety of those around her is paramount here. Offer her some bananas and sweetly whisper in her ear to move her out of harm's way?

 

You evidently do not work with elephants.  Again it's quite simple - you can go the route of saying NO BULLHOOK and then you have deaths on your hands (though you probably think that is good as you imagine all mahouts are sick elephant abusers), or you can accept that if the urgent and essential need arises, a bullhook may be required to help ensure the safety of those nearby, the mahout, and indeed the elephant themselves. 

 

Going back to the police and gun analogy. Just because an officer may carry a gun for safety and protection, does not mean they use it.  Could someone use a bullhook cruelly? Yes.  Is the existence of this tool mahouts have carried for hundreds of years proof of abuse? No.  I've spent time with many mahouts who carry bullhooks.  ALL the mahouts at TECC carry bullhooks.  If they are abusing their elephants they have hidden the non-existent wounds pretty well - especially they are open to the public and host hundreds of visitors each day.  Likewise the mahouts I've spent time with in Chiang Mai province.  When you regard elephants as family, harming them is the last thing you would think about doing. 

 

Again, just because an officer carries a gun, does not mean all officers are trigger happy murderers.  Does that help?

 

Do not make this a black and white issue. It is evidently not.

 

So to put this back on you. What should a mahout use instead of a bullhook as a guide?  How would you move an elephant of the urgent need arose to ensure the safety of other elephants, animals, humans and yourself? How would you guide and move an elephant it the elephant's health and well-being depended on it? For example when needing medical care. 

 

Sugar cubes?  

 

Also, you are aware that many mahouts (including some very experienced) have lost their lives and NOT had a bullhook...mainly because of such harmful claims that bullhooks are solely tools of abuse and torture. Elephant Nature Park has seen at least two mahouts lose their lives and claims to operate a "no hooks, no chains" haven for elephants.  But again I guess those lived are dispensable. 

 

Boon Lot - a haven for Western elephant saviours who do not want to see mahouts with a bullhook also recently lost a very experienced mahout, guess what,  no bullhook.

 

Hope seeing how complex it is and how simplying such things can really be dangerous...indeed it literally can be a matter of life and death. 

Can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink.   Fortunately most on TVF haven't had their eyes glued shut.   For abundant clarity, not going to bother addressing what I assume to be your intended points, or your non sensical analogy.  The way to address deaths is to close the industry.

[brownrabbit]

6 minutes ago, Mick501 said:

Can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink.   Fortunately most on TVF haven't had their eyes glued shut.   For abundant clarity, not going to bother addressing what I assume to be your intended points, or your non sensical analogy.  The way to address deaths is to close the industry.

Great idea!

 

Let's just close down the entire industry!  And do what with 3500 captive elephants?  Let them run amok?  Put them down?  Let them starve to death? What about the human lives at stake here? 

 

Who cares?  Mick is in charge - the Changs are on him!

 

Now, let's unglue those eyes - though I may need a bull hook to open your's.  

 

You gave me a National Geographic article criticizing all forms of animal tourism across the World written by a Westerner who spent a few days visiting 2 camps in Chiang Mai.  Seriously, that was the best you could offer?  www.google.com then insert "bull hooks and abuse?" 

 

Great research!  I can see you are evidently well read and now an expert on all things to do with mahouts, bull-hooks, and captive elephant care.  Good job!

 

But being serious now, it is laughable that your proof the bull hook is solely used to abuse elephants was that (even if there was absolutely no proof anywhere in that article, other than suggestion that at one location a mahout used a bull hook unkindly).  The article was not even about bull hooks.  It was about animal tourism with a section being critical (and showing only one side) of elephant tourism in Thailand.  It was also full of untruths (e.g. this is the normal trajectory of a captive elephant in Thailand?  Err. No it isn't!  Elephant tourism has changed massively in the last decade alone - so how can it possibly be a lifelong (quoting 55-75 years) trajectory?  

 

Awful article.  

 

Besides, surely the debate then is about having good mahouts and good practices where there is elephant tourism?  Obviously, that is only right and good.  Such places, and i have been to several, should only be supported and celebrated.  

 

I am not defending all places. I am not saying there are places that will employ cheap labour and untrained mahouts (again I can name places).  I am pointing out that to tar ALL with the same brush is harmful to everyone - not least the captive elephants.  Someone has to feed and care for them.  They eat and cost. A lot.    

 

The issue then is what is the best form of elephant tourism to ensure the wellbeing and safety of elephants AND those that risk their lives caring for them.  

 

But no.  You cannot get your head around the fact that this is a complex issue.  You simply want to end ALL FORMS of elephant tourism.  What then is your solution?  What would you do with the 3500 odd captive elephants?  How would you support those who care for them now and their families?  Where would you put the elephants (they cannot survive in the wild - nor is their the space if they could).  All of the options are much crueler evidently.  Unless, you have a better idea that nobody has thought of yet despite this issue being discussed for years.

 

Unlike the lightweight, superficially researched article on the subject (well, it wasn't exactly on the subject of bull hooks at all) you kindly shared, here is a link to a website actually created by experts in the field.  It is safe to say that all of those who created this are far more educated on captive elephant issues in Thailand than anyone posting here is.  

 

For those who would like to actually learn a thing or two about a complex issue then you're welcome:  

http://acewg.org/who-we-are/.      (look - not a Jemima from Surrey who has spent a week at a 'sanctuary' and now claims to be an expert on captive elephant care in Thailand - but these are actually educated "experts" in the field of captive elephant care - many of them are actually from here (as well as the West for those anti-Thai - a common theme here) and have lived and worked with elephants all their working lives!). Doctors, vets, professors - not barstool lecturers found across TV.  

 

While here are informed answers to common questions...such as "How are elephants trained?"  "What is the bullhook?"  http://acewg.org/frequently-asked-questions-on-elephants-in-tourism/ 

 

Here are some great snippets that will help:

 

On training...

 

"Every captive elephant must have some training to allow it to understand common verbal commands and to accept veterinary treatment. To not train an elephant under human care would be irresponsible. In the days of wild capture, the elephant was often tamed using very harsh techniques, as this wild creature had no previous experience with humans. Old videos labelled as “Phajaan training” can be found on the internet and show cruel training methods using a crush to confine the animal and ‘break its spirit’. But such methods are thankfully much less common today."

 

On bull-hooks...

 

"The training tool called the hook (also called a guide or bullhook) is used to guide an elephant. It consists of a stick with a curved hook at the end. In a free contact environment when humans are in close and unrestricted contact with elephants, the hook is used to guide and cue the elephant with the purpose of ensuring the safety of both humans and elephants.

In a free contact situation, where elephants and humans share the same space, a hook should be carried at all times for safety. The tool was developed over thousands of years to allow a mahout to get an elephant’s attention in an emergency (e.g. sudden loud noises or when elephants fight) or potentially dangerous (potential ingestion of chemical poisons, litter, fallen electric wires etc.) situation. In any situation where an elephant may panic, this tool can be used to ensure the safety of the elephant and those around him/her without causing damage or injury to that elephant. Not carrying a hook is dangerous for both the elephant and any people around. Likewise, using an inappropriate tool, like a machete (knife) or spear to bring an elephant under control can be dangerous and cause harm to the elephant. Some mahouts carry nails in their pockets, which is completely inadequate for controlling an elephant but allows them to give the impression they are using voice alone – commonly done for aesthetic reasons only. The advantage of the hook is that it extends the reach of the arm to allow a safer way for the mahout to signal a command to an elephant."

Now, for those who still can't accept the complexity of these issues I have kindly taken the time to explain to you,  I suggest you stick to your barstools and the Chang served in bottles.   

[Mick501]

3 hours ago, brownrabbit said:

Great idea!

 

Let's just close down the entire industry!  And do what with 3500 captive elephants?  Let them run amok?  Put them down?  Let them starve to death? What about the human lives at stake here? 

 

Who cares?  Mick is in charge - the Changs are on him!

 

Now, let's unglue those eyes - though I may need a bull hook to open your's.  

 

You gave me a National Geographic article criticizing all forms of animal tourism across the World written by a Westerner who spent a few days visiting 2 camps in Chiang Mai.  Seriously, that was the best you could offer?  www.google.com then insert "bull hooks and abuse?" 

 

Great research!  I can see you are evidently well read and now an expert on all things to do with mahouts, bull-hooks, and captive elephant care.  Good job!

 

But being serious now, it is laughable that your proof the bull hook is solely used to abuse elephants was that (even if there was absolutely no proof anywhere in that article, other than suggestion that at one location a mahout used a bull hook unkindly).  The article was not even about bull hooks.  It was about animal tourism with a section being critical (and showing only one side) of elephant tourism in Thailand.  It was also full of untruths (e.g. this is the normal trajectory of a captive elephant in Thailand?  Err. No it isn't!  Elephant tourism has changed massively in the last decade alone - so how can it possibly be a lifelong (quoting 55-75 years) trajectory?  

 

Awful article.  

 

Besides, surely the debate then is about having good mahouts and good practices where there is elephant tourism?  Obviously, that is only right and good.  Such places, and i have been to several, should only be supported and celebrated.  

 

I am not defending all places. I am not saying there are places that will employ cheap labour and untrained mahouts (again I can name places).  I am pointing out that to tar ALL with the same brush is harmful to everyone - not least the captive elephants.  Someone has to feed and care for them.  They eat and cost. A lot.    

 

The issue then is what is the best form of elephant tourism to ensure the wellbeing and safety of elephants AND those that risk their lives caring for them.  

 

But no.  You cannot get your head around the fact that this is a complex issue.  You simply want to end ALL FORMS of elephant tourism.  What then is your solution?  What would you do with the 3500 odd captive elephants?  How would you support those who care for them now and their families?  Where would you put the elephants (they cannot survive in the wild - nor is their the space if they could).  All of the options are much crueler evidently.  Unless, you have a better idea that nobody has thought of yet despite this issue being discussed for years.

 

Unlike the lightweight, superficially researched article on the subject (well, it wasn't exactly on the subject of bull hooks at all) you kindly shared, here is a link to a website actually created by experts in the field.  It is safe to say that all of those who created this are far more educated on captive elephant issues in Thailand than anyone posting here is.  

 

For those who would like to actually learn a thing or two about a complex issue then you're welcome:  

http://acewg.org/who-we-are/.      (look - not a Jemima from Surrey who has spent a week at a 'sanctuary' and now claims to be an expert on captive elephant care in Thailand - but these are actually educated "experts" in the field of captive elephant care - many of them are actually from here (as well as the West for those anti-Thai - a common theme here) and have lived and worked with elephants all their working lives!). Doctors, vets, professors - not barstool lecturers found across TV.  

 

While here are informed answers to common questions...such as "How are elephants trained?"  "What is the bullhook?"  http://acewg.org/frequently-asked-questions-on-elephants-in-tourism/ 

 

Here are some great snippets that will help:

 

On training...

 

"Every captive elephant must have some training to allow it to understand common verbal commands and to accept veterinary treatment. To not train an elephant under human care would be irresponsible. In the days of wild capture, the elephant was often tamed using very harsh techniques, as this wild creature had no previous experience with humans. Old videos labelled as “Phajaan training” can be found on the internet and show cruel training methods using a crush to confine the animal and ‘break its spirit’. But such methods are thankfully much less common today."

 

On bull-hooks...

 

"The training tool called the hook (also called a guide or bullhook) is used to guide an elephant. It consists of a stick with a curved hook at the end. In a free contact environment when humans are in close and unrestricted contact with elephants, the hook is used to guide and cue the elephant with the purpose of ensuring the safety of both humans and elephants.

In a free contact situation, where elephants and humans share the same space, a hook should be carried at all times for safety. The tool was developed over thousands of years to allow a mahout to get an elephant’s attention in an emergency (e.g. sudden loud noises or when elephants fight) or potentially dangerous (potential ingestion of chemical poisons, litter, fallen electric wires etc.) situation. In any situation where an elephant may panic, this tool can be used to ensure the safety of the elephant and those around him/her without causing damage or injury to that elephant. Not carrying a hook is dangerous for both the elephant and any people around. Likewise, using an inappropriate tool, like a machete (knife) or spear to bring an elephant under control can be dangerous and cause harm to the elephant. Some mahouts carry nails in their pockets, which is completely inadequate for controlling an elephant but allows them to give the impression they are using voice alone – commonly done for aesthetic reasons only. The advantage of the hook is that it extends the reach of the arm to allow a safer way for the mahout to signal a command to an elephant."

Now, for those who still can't accept the complexity of these issues I have kindly taken the time to explain to you,  I suggest you stick to your barstools and the Chang served in bottles.   

Yes, you are right, it will be difficult to rehome all the elephants that are currently suffering abuse.  Firm steps need to be taken in that direction and to end this cruel industry.  

[jak2002003]

4 hours ago, brownrabbit said:

Great idea!

 

Let's just close down the entire industry!  And do what with 3500 captive elephants?  Let them run amok?  Put them down?  Let them starve to death? What about the human lives at stake here? 

 

Who cares?  Mick is in charge - the Changs are on him!

 

Now, let's unglue those eyes - though I may need a bull hook to open your's.  

 

You gave me a National Geographic article criticizing all forms of animal tourism across the World written by a Westerner who spent a few days visiting 2 camps in Chiang Mai.  Seriously, that was the best you could offer?  www.google.com then insert "bull hooks and abuse?" 

 

Great research!  I can see you are evidently well read and now an expert on all things to do with mahouts, bull-hooks, and captive elephant care.  Good job!

 

But being serious now, it is laughable that your proof the bull hook is solely used to abuse elephants was that (even if there was absolutely no proof anywhere in that article, other than suggestion that at one location a mahout used a bull hook unkindly).  The article was not even about bull hooks.  It was about animal tourism with a section being critical (and showing only one side) of elephant tourism in Thailand.  It was also full of untruths (e.g. this is the normal trajectory of a captive elephant in Thailand?  Err. No it isn't!  Elephant tourism has changed massively in the last decade alone - so how can it possibly be a lifelong (quoting 55-75 years) trajectory?  

 

Awful article.  

 

Besides, surely the debate then is about having good mahouts and good practices where there is elephant tourism?  Obviously, that is only right and good.  Such places, and i have been to several, should only be supported and celebrated.  

 

I am not defending all places. I am not saying there are places that will employ cheap labour and untrained mahouts (again I can name places).  I am pointing out that to tar ALL with the same brush is harmful to everyone - not least the captive elephants.  Someone has to feed and care for them.  They eat and cost. A lot.    

 

The issue then is what is the best form of elephant tourism to ensure the wellbeing and safety of elephants AND those that risk their lives caring for them.  

 

But no.  You cannot get your head around the fact that this is a complex issue.  You simply want to end ALL FORMS of elephant tourism.  What then is your solution?  What would you do with the 3500 odd captive elephants?  How would you support those who care for them now and their families?  Where would you put the elephants (they cannot survive in the wild - nor is their the space if they could).  All of the options are much crueler evidently.  Unless, you have a better idea that nobody has thought of yet despite this issue being discussed for years.

 

Unlike the lightweight, superficially researched article on the subject (well, it wasn't exactly on the subject of bull hooks at all) you kindly shared, here is a link to a website actually created by experts in the field.  It is safe to say that all of those who created this are far more educated on captive elephant issues in Thailand than anyone posting here is.  

 

For those who would like to actually learn a thing or two about a complex issue then you're welcome:  

http://acewg.org/who-we-are/.      (look - not a Jemima from Surrey who has spent a week at a 'sanctuary' and now claims to be an expert on captive elephant care in Thailand - but these are actually educated "experts" in the field of captive elephant care - many of them are actually from here (as well as the West for those anti-Thai - a common theme here) and have lived and worked with elephants all their working lives!). Doctors, vets, professors - not barstool lecturers found across TV.  

 

While here are informed answers to common questions...such as "How are elephants trained?"  "What is the bullhook?"  http://acewg.org/frequently-asked-questions-on-elephants-in-tourism/ 

 

Here are some great snippets that will help:

 

On training...

 

"Every captive elephant must have some training to allow it to understand common verbal commands and to accept veterinary treatment. To not train an elephant under human care would be irresponsible. In the days of wild capture, the elephant was often tamed using very harsh techniques, as this wild creature had no previous experience with humans. Old videos labelled as “Phajaan training” can be found on the internet and show cruel training methods using a crush to confine the animal and ‘break its spirit’. But such methods are thankfully much less common today."

 

On bull-hooks...

 

"The training tool called the hook (also called a guide or bullhook) is used to guide an elephant. It consists of a stick with a curved hook at the end. In a free contact environment when humans are in close and unrestricted contact with elephants, the hook is used to guide and cue the elephant with the purpose of ensuring the safety of both humans and elephants.

In a free contact situation, where elephants and humans share the same space, a hook should be carried at all times for safety. The tool was developed over thousands of years to allow a mahout to get an elephant’s attention in an emergency (e.g. sudden loud noises or when elephants fight) or potentially dangerous (potential ingestion of chemical poisons, litter, fallen electric wires etc.) situation. In any situation where an elephant may panic, this tool can be used to ensure the safety of the elephant and those around him/her without causing damage or injury to that elephant. Not carrying a hook is dangerous for both the elephant and any people around. Likewise, using an inappropriate tool, like a machete (knife) or spear to bring an elephant under control can be dangerous and cause harm to the elephant. Some mahouts carry nails in their pockets, which is completely inadequate for controlling an elephant but allows them to give the impression they are using voice alone – commonly done for aesthetic reasons only. The advantage of the hook is that it extends the reach of the arm to allow a safer way for the mahout to signal a command to an elephant."

Now, for those who still can't accept the complexity of these issues I have kindly taken the time to explain to you,  I suggest you stick to your barstools and the Chang served in bottles.   

You just wrote a book!

 

What is your fascination / vested interest in elephant camps? Do you have investment in one, or do you work at one? 

 

There is zero justification for elephant camps, and you are determined to turn a blind eye to the fact they are unethical, outdated and cruel

.

How pathetic to say it's even remotely ok to keep intelligent self aware endangered species in such a way..and to use them to make money. 

 

If you care about these creatures you should put your efforts into finding solutions and alternatives to these camps and shows, rather then defending this inhumane business. 

 

Next time you go to an elephant camp take a look at the animals off show.  See they don't have any freedom, kept on short chains and swaying their heads from side to side from stress. You actually follow the life of a baby elephant from birth and go see how it's trained when taken off the mother.  See the poor animal repeat the same tricks in the heat day after day for 60 plus years with ignorant tourists swarming like flies around them. Think how you would feel being yelled at, and being threatened with punishment with a metal bull hook every day, and having your ear pulled and tugged on constantly to get you to do tricks, and having someone sit on your shoulders for hours every day then chained up to a post in isolation every night.

 

There is something wrong with anybody that can't see that is wrong.

 

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by jak2002003

[jak2002003]

5 hours ago, rob63 said:

Hypocrite alert. You have no problem watching tourists eat hamburgers, kfc and bacon breakfasts, but choose to campaign for elephants?

So basically you think we should treat all animals badly and torturing them is ok with you because people eat chicken burgers? 

 

What sort of argument is s that?????

 

 

[daveAustin]

On 6/30/2020 at 7:32 AM, simon43 said:

My personal view is that these elephants should not be in any kind of elephant camp where they have to perform for tourists or provide rides etc. 

 

As Thailand opens up again to tourism, these camps should be going in the other direction >> closed down for good.

I think Thailand should be closed until it grows up a bit.

[daveAustin]

On 7/1/2020 at 9:39 PM, rob63 said:

Hypocrite alert. You have no problem watching tourists eat hamburgers, kfc and bacon breakfasts, but choose to campaign for elephants?

Troll alert.

There's enough tripe talking on this site without newbies, or not, adding to it.

[mike787]

NOTHING will change....good luck!   

[Rimmer]

A flame also an argumentative post have been removed