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Trauma, abuse for Thai elephants taught tricks for tourists, charity says

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10 hours ago, holy cow cm said:

Thai and elephants are like westerners and dogs, except we don't abuse dogs.

Try getting an elephant bag with the remains of your meal at a restaurant just like in the west when they ask for a doggie bag.

9 hours ago, brownrabbit said:

The bullhook is used as a guide. Having one allows mahouts to have a tool that can be employed if the urgent need arises

Look at the blood near the right ear and see if that confirms your statement about the bull hook being only used as a guide.

'nuf sed.

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8 hours ago, wotsdermatter said:

Try getting an elephant bag with the remains of your meal at a restaurant just like in the west when they ask for a doggie bag.

Look at the blood near the right ear and see if that confirms your statement about the bull hook being only used as a guide.

'nuf sed.

With the USA Ca portions of food you absolutely need an elephant bag. One restaurant serving is enough for 2 meals for me. 

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How would we prevent the elephants from becoming extinct once there is zero demand for them ?

while, i do not really agree with trick performing animals
it does all boil down to the treatment and training techniques
if these are above board, then such is fine and good for the species existence,
i also understand how such news is constantly being staged to push agendas

the problem i see is if there is no demand for elephants for tourist attractions
they will eventually die off here, which would be sad.

Someone please explain to me
if performing tricks is any different to being used as a tool for construction say ?
like elephants used to be used

as i am not inclined to see a show
i would definitely be keen to visit a place that used elephants (and hand tools) to build a village
instead of using today's fossil fueled machinery 
or would people consider this traditional use just the same or even worse than a show performance ?

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Posted (edited)
On 6/30/2020 at 7:12 AM, brownrabbit said:

So why no names? Location?  Read about this in 4 different publications now but no location on names given once.

 

 

You have to ask?  It would be too dangerous for the people who exposed this.  They would likely be arrested and charged with damaging Thailand's image, defamation, or be silenced by the people with vested interests in the elephant camps.

 

21 hours ago, rob63 said:

There is a lot of hypocrisy in the previous comments. Your cows, pigs and chickens endure much worse. Then you point the finger at somebody else's country. Clean up your act in your own country before you comment on somebody else's country.

That is not right.  There are laws governing how farm animals are raised and treated.  We do not starve, beat with metal hooks, or hobble a cow or pig for weeks on end while torturing them.  

 

18 hours ago, brownrabbit said:

Care to share the reading?  Not sensationalist animal rights pieces or blogposts from someone from the West who has spent a week "finding themselves" volunteering at an elephant sanctuary - but actual experts in captive elephant care describing how and why mahouts who love their elephants (and many regard as family) would see this as normal practice.  

I could not see any information about the torture of baby elephants to break them on the elephant camp sites... do you think they would advertise that?  Where else to see this kind of thing if not an animals rights organisation?

 

I don't know what kind of sick individual would torture their children like they are doing to this elephant, or use meal bull hooks daily on their wives to control them in times of emergency.  

Edited by jak2002003

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18 hours ago, brownrabbit said:

Care to share the reading?  Not sensationalist animal rights pieces or blogposts from someone from the West who has spent a week "finding themselves" volunteering at an elephant sanctuary - but actual experts in captive elephant care describing how and why mahouts who love their elephants (and many regard as family) would see this as normal practice.  

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2019/06/global-wildlife-tourism-social-media-causes-animal-suffering/

 

 

hopefully National Geographic will meet with your discerning standards, but there are any number of similar articles from other sources.  

 

On on the subject of mahouts carrying a bull hook, do you really think the elephant would be scared of it if it had not been from learned experience?  If it were not used to repeatedly abuse them, they would see it as just another stick.

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19 hours ago, chainarong said:

The video clips are not fake,  they showed us on the OZ news the little elephant baby being taken away and its mother crying and the baby crying, basically you never separate a mother and baby elephant, its a part of the pack , 

Surely better for the young one to follow mother and learn the trade? 

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27 minutes ago, canopy said:

Thailand has over 3000 elephants in the wild. Their existence is not at all pinned to entertaining in tourist areas and in fact quite the opposite. Young elephants are captured and illegally imported to Thailand from Myanmar for use in the tourism industry (source). So tourism actually accelerates depletion of Asian elephants in the wild. All we need to do is provide plenty of undisturbed habitat and elephants will thrive there. It's very easy if the will is there.

 

Working elephants have pros and cons. One problem that led to banishing working elephants is the mahouts gave them amphetamines to work harder which is sad to make them into drug addicts. If elephants could be humanely trained and work like a water buffalo plowing a field there would be benefits to be sure. Machine logging needs access roads built where elephants don't. Machines are polluting, expensive and disruptive scarring the earth much more than an elephant walking in and picking a tree. But I just don't see this ever being realistic. All the farmers happily scrapped their buffalo for machines and never looked back. Loggers the same. Also elephants are wild animals and really that's where they should be.

 

While i do agree with what you say, numbers are off slightly,
yes it would be nice if the national parks were actually kept for wildlife and not turned into tourist spots
but solely relying on this to happen today and in future is doubtful

It seems the majority of elephants in Thailand have been captive for a long time, 
either way captive elephants do outweigh wild elephants today
just a shame there is nothing to say whether the increase in captive elephants are from captive births,
or from wild elephants being captured

"In the early-1900s there were an estimated 100,000 domesticated or captive elephants in Thailand.[3] In mid-2007 there were an estimated 3,456 domesticated elephants left in Thailand and roughly a thousand wild elephants. By 2017 the number of captive elephants had risen to an estimated 3,783."

"Logging was banned in Thailand in 1989. Logging had been the primary occupation of Thai elephants and their 
mahouts. After the ban, elephants trainers had to find other ways to feed themselves and their elephants. Most of them turned to the entertainment industry and tourism."

Source

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22 hours ago, brownrabbit said:

The bullhook is used as a guide. Having one allows mahouts to have a tool that can be employed if the urgent need arises - often to ensure their safety, the safety of those around them, and the safety of elephants themselves.

That's a bit like saying a sharp stick is okay to poke something to get it to go in a certain direction, a bullhook is not a safety measure.. if the elephant started to play-up it would be useless.

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It is not ok to keep on with this elephant torture.

 

I will understand that there is a lot of already trained elephants, at first used in the forrest industry and later when most of the forrest industry closed down, they have to find other ways to pay the food and ended in the tourist industry. This is history, as we can not change, we had to give these elephants a helping hand to give them a better life in a reliable jungle camp.

 

An elephant can get very old up to 80 years i am informed, so the problem is not solved in a year or two.

 

But I am choked to see that some thais is keeping on with torture training of baby elephants to the tourist industry, then the story will never ends.

 

 

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19 hours ago, mok199 said:

Hopefully the day will come ,when people like this get their comeuppance....

Hopefully when they go broke from the enlightened tourist who abores and refuses to support this outdated form of entertainment.

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5 hours ago, innosiem said:

How would we prevent the elephants from becoming extinct once there is zero demand for them ?

while, i do not really agree with trick performing animals
it does all boil down to the treatment and training techniques
if these are above board, then such is fine and good for the species existence,
i also understand how such news is constantly being staged to push agendas

the problem i see is if there is no demand for elephants for tourist attractions
they will eventually die off here, which would be sad.

Someone please explain to me
if performing tricks is any different to being used as a tool for construction say ?
like elephants used to be used

as i am not inclined to see a show
i would definitely be keen to visit a place that used elephants (and hand tools) to build a village
instead of using today's fossil fueled machinery 
or would people consider this traditional use just the same or even worse than a show performance ?

Elephants used in industry are trained and abused in the same manner, and they are even worse off as there is very little down time.  Their whole life consists of pulling heavy objects from sun up to sun down.  Then they die.

 

as for going extinct, there are several thousand wild elephants in Thai national parks alone.   The laws protecting them seem to already be in place, but more could be done to enforce those laws.  Africa seems to be able to manage it reasonably well, so no reason that can't be duplicated here.   Visiting Thailand to see wild elephants is not necessarily at the top of everyone's list, but it certainly could be were it marketed as successfully as in some African countries.

 

on a side note, it is not uncommon that an entire herd is killed so that poachers can take the younger elephants and babies for human use.  The incentive for that kind of atrocity would disappear if human use of elephants were prohibited.

 

its just a matter of time until it happens.  Like many other practices from bygone eras, the used by date has expired.  When enough people realise what the elephants go through for the person to get a holiday selfie, there will be a turning point.  There's already increased awareness in western countries.  Tricky bit will be educating the Chnese tourists.

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5 hours ago, Mick501 said:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2019/06/global-wildlife-tourism-social-media-causes-animal-suffering/

 

 

hopefully National Geographic will meet with your discerning standards, but there are any number of similar articles from other sources.  

 

On on the subject of mahouts carrying a bull hook, do you really think the elephant would be scared of it if it had not been from learned experience?  If it were not used to repeatedly abuse them, they would see it as just another stick.

I've read that before and no - National Geographic is like saying its the BBC.  Don't question it.  I shall. I am more than happy to provide some actual readings and quotes from experts who work with elephants on the ground. 

 

What I will ask here is how would you urgently move an elephant that has been freaked out by a dog? As is the case of just one elephant I know.  So her safety and the safety of those around her is paramount here. Offer her some bananas and sweetly whisper in her ear to move her out of harm's way?

 

You evidently do not work with elephants.  Again it's quite simple - you can go the route of saying NO BULLHOOK and then you have deaths on your hands (though you probably think that is good as you imagine all mahouts are sick elephant abusers), or you can accept that if the urgent and essential need arises, a bullhook may be required to help ensure the safety of those nearby, the mahout, and indeed the elephant themselves. 

 

Going back to the police and gun analogy. Just because an officer may carry a gun for safety and protection, does not mean they use it.  Could someone use a bullhook cruelly? Yes.  Is the existence of this tool mahouts have carried for hundreds of years proof of abuse? No.  I've spent time with many mahouts who carry bullhooks.  ALL the mahouts at TECC carry bullhooks.  If they are abusing their elephants they have hidden the non-existent wounds pretty well - especially they are open to the public and host hundreds of visitors each day.  Likewise the mahouts I've spent time with in Chiang Mai province.  When you regard elephants as family, harming them is the last thing you would think about doing. 

 

Again, just because an officer carries a gun, does not mean all officers are trigger happy murderers.  Does that help?

 

Do not make this a black and white issue. It is evidently not.

 

So to put this back on you. What should a mahout use instead of a bullhook as a guide?  How would you move an elephant of the urgent need arose to ensure the safety of other elephants, animals, humans and yourself? How would you guide and move an elephant it the elephant's health and well-being depended on it? For example when needing medical care. 

 

Sugar cubes?  

 

Also, you are aware that many mahouts (including some very experienced) have lost their lives and NOT had a bullhook...mainly because of such harmful claims that bullhooks are solely tools of abuse and torture. Elephant Nature Park has seen at least two mahouts lose their lives and claims to operate a "no hooks, no chains" haven for elephants.  But again I guess those lived are dispensable. 

 

Boon Lot - a haven for Western elephant saviours who do not want to see mahouts with a bullhook also recently lost a very experienced mahout, guess what,  no bullhook.

 

Hope seeing how complex it is and how simplying such things can really be dangerous...indeed it literally can be a matter of life and death. 

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18 minutes ago, brownrabbit said:

I've read that before and no - National Geographic is like saying its the BBC.  Don't question it.  I shall. I am more than happy to provide some actual readings and quotes from experts who work with elephants on the ground. 

 

What I will ask here is how would you urgently move an elephant that has been freaked out by a dog? As is the case of just one elephant I know.  So her safety and the safety of those around her is paramount here. Offer her some bananas and sweetly whisper in her ear to move her out of harm's way?

 

You evidently do not work with elephants.  Again it's quite simple - you can go the route of saying NO BULLHOOK and then you have deaths on your hands (though you probably think that is good as you imagine all mahouts are sick elephant abusers), or you can accept that if the urgent and essential need arises, a bullhook may be required to help ensure the safety of those nearby, the mahout, and indeed the elephant themselves. 

 

Going back to the police and gun analogy. Just because an officer may carry a gun for safety and protection, does not mean they use it.  Could someone use a bullhook cruelly? Yes.  Is the existence of this tool mahouts have carried for hundreds of years proof of abuse? No.  I've spent time with many mahouts who carry bullhooks.  ALL the mahouts at TECC carry bullhooks.  If they are abusing their elephants they have hidden the non-existent wounds pretty well - especially they are open to the public and host hundreds of visitors each day.  Likewise the mahouts I've spent time with in Chiang Mai province.  When you regard elephants as family, harming them is the last thing you would think about doing. 

 

Again, just because an officer carries a gun, does not mean all officers are trigger happy murderers.  Does that help?

 

Do not make this a black and white issue. It is evidently not.

 

So to put this back on you. What should a mahout use instead of a bullhook as a guide?  How would you move an elephant of the urgent need arose to ensure the safety of other elephants, animals, humans and yourself? How would you guide and move an elephant it the elephant's health and well-being depended on it? For example when needing medical care. 

 

Sugar cubes?  

 

Also, you are aware that many mahouts (including some very experienced) have lost their lives and NOT had a bullhook...mainly because of such harmful claims that bullhooks are solely tools of abuse and torture. Elephant Nature Park has seen at least two mahouts lose their lives and claims to operate a "no hooks, no chains" haven for elephants.  But again I guess those lived are dispensable. 

 

Boon Lot - a haven for Western elephant saviours who do not want to see mahouts with a bullhook also recently lost a very experienced mahout, guess what,  no bullhook.

 

Hope seeing how complex it is and how simplying such things can really be dangerous...indeed it literally can be a matter of life and death. 

Can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink.   Fortunately most on TVF haven't had their eyes glued shut.   For abundant clarity, not going to bother addressing what I assume to be your intended points, or your non sensical analogy.  The way to address deaths is to close the industry.

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