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Trauma, abuse for Thai elephants taught tricks for tourists, charity says

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3 hours ago, brownrabbit said:

Great idea!

 

Let's just close down the entire industry!  And do what with 3500 captive elephants?  Let them run amok?  Put them down?  Let them starve to death? What about the human lives at stake here? 

 

Who cares?  Mick is in charge - the Changs are on him!

 

Now, let's unglue those eyes - though I may need a bull hook to open your's.  

 

You gave me a National Geographic article criticizing all forms of animal tourism across the World written by a Westerner who spent a few days visiting 2 camps in Chiang Mai.  Seriously, that was the best you could offer?  www.google.com then insert "bull hooks and abuse?" 

 

Great research!  I can see you are evidently well read and now an expert on all things to do with mahouts, bull-hooks, and captive elephant care.  Good job!

 

But being serious now, it is laughable that your proof the bull hook is solely used to abuse elephants was that (even if there was absolutely no proof anywhere in that article, other than suggestion that at one location a mahout used a bull hook unkindly).  The article was not even about bull hooks.  It was about animal tourism with a section being critical (and showing only one side) of elephant tourism in Thailand.  It was also full of untruths (e.g. this is the normal trajectory of a captive elephant in Thailand?  Err. No it isn't!  Elephant tourism has changed massively in the last decade alone - so how can it possibly be a lifelong (quoting 55-75 years) trajectory?  

 

Awful article.  

 

Besides, surely the debate then is about having good mahouts and good practices where there is elephant tourism?  Obviously, that is only right and good.  Such places, and i have been to several, should only be supported and celebrated.  

 

I am not defending all places. I am not saying there are places that will employ cheap labour and untrained mahouts (again I can name places).  I am pointing out that to tar ALL with the same brush is harmful to everyone - not least the captive elephants.  Someone has to feed and care for them.  They eat and cost. A lot.    

 

The issue then is what is the best form of elephant tourism to ensure the wellbeing and safety of elephants AND those that risk their lives caring for them.  

 

But no.  You cannot get your head around the fact that this is a complex issue.  You simply want to end ALL FORMS of elephant tourism.  What then is your solution?  What would you do with the 3500 odd captive elephants?  How would you support those who care for them now and their families?  Where would you put the elephants (they cannot survive in the wild - nor is their the space if they could).  All of the options are much crueler evidently.  Unless, you have a better idea that nobody has thought of yet despite this issue being discussed for years.

 

Unlike the lightweight, superficially researched article on the subject (well, it wasn't exactly on the subject of bull hooks at all) you kindly shared, here is a link to a website actually created by experts in the field.  It is safe to say that all of those who created this are far more educated on captive elephant issues in Thailand than anyone posting here is.  

 

For those who would like to actually learn a thing or two about a complex issue then you're welcome:  

http://acewg.org/who-we-are/.      (look - not a Jemima from Surrey who has spent a week at a 'sanctuary' and now claims to be an expert on captive elephant care in Thailand - but these are actually educated "experts" in the field of captive elephant care - many of them are actually from here (as well as the West for those anti-Thai - a common theme here) and have lived and worked with elephants all their working lives!). Doctors, vets, professors - not barstool lecturers found across TV.  

 

While here are informed answers to common questions...such as "How are elephants trained?"  "What is the bullhook?"  http://acewg.org/frequently-asked-questions-on-elephants-in-tourism/ 

 

Here are some great snippets that will help:

 

On training...

 

"Every captive elephant must have some training to allow it to understand common verbal commands and to accept veterinary treatment. To not train an elephant under human care would be irresponsible. In the days of wild capture, the elephant was often tamed using very harsh techniques, as this wild creature had no previous experience with humans. Old videos labelled as “Phajaan training” can be found on the internet and show cruel training methods using a crush to confine the animal and ‘break its spirit’. But such methods are thankfully much less common today."

 

On bull-hooks...

 

"The training tool called the hook (also called a guide or bullhook) is used to guide an elephant. It consists of a stick with a curved hook at the end. In a free contact environment when humans are in close and unrestricted contact with elephants, the hook is used to guide and cue the elephant with the purpose of ensuring the safety of both humans and elephants.

In a free contact situation, where elephants and humans share the same space, a hook should be carried at all times for safety. The tool was developed over thousands of years to allow a mahout to get an elephant’s attention in an emergency (e.g. sudden loud noises or when elephants fight) or potentially dangerous (potential ingestion of chemical poisons, litter, fallen electric wires etc.) situation. In any situation where an elephant may panic, this tool can be used to ensure the safety of the elephant and those around him/her without causing damage or injury to that elephant. Not carrying a hook is dangerous for both the elephant and any people around. Likewise, using an inappropriate tool, like a machete (knife) or spear to bring an elephant under control can be dangerous and cause harm to the elephant. Some mahouts carry nails in their pockets, which is completely inadequate for controlling an elephant but allows them to give the impression they are using voice alone – commonly done for aesthetic reasons only. The advantage of the hook is that it extends the reach of the arm to allow a safer way for the mahout to signal a command to an elephant."

Now, for those who still can't accept the complexity of these issues I have kindly taken the time to explain to you,  I suggest you stick to your barstools and the Chang served in bottles.   

Yes, you are right, it will be difficult to rehome all the elephants that are currently suffering abuse.  Firm steps need to be taken in that direction and to end this cruel industry.  

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, brownrabbit said:

Great idea!

 

Let's just close down the entire industry!  And do what with 3500 captive elephants?  Let them run amok?  Put them down?  Let them starve to death? What about the human lives at stake here? 

 

Who cares?  Mick is in charge - the Changs are on him!

 

Now, let's unglue those eyes - though I may need a bull hook to open your's.  

 

You gave me a National Geographic article criticizing all forms of animal tourism across the World written by a Westerner who spent a few days visiting 2 camps in Chiang Mai.  Seriously, that was the best you could offer?  www.google.com then insert "bull hooks and abuse?" 

 

Great research!  I can see you are evidently well read and now an expert on all things to do with mahouts, bull-hooks, and captive elephant care.  Good job!

 

But being serious now, it is laughable that your proof the bull hook is solely used to abuse elephants was that (even if there was absolutely no proof anywhere in that article, other than suggestion that at one location a mahout used a bull hook unkindly).  The article was not even about bull hooks.  It was about animal tourism with a section being critical (and showing only one side) of elephant tourism in Thailand.  It was also full of untruths (e.g. this is the normal trajectory of a captive elephant in Thailand?  Err. No it isn't!  Elephant tourism has changed massively in the last decade alone - so how can it possibly be a lifelong (quoting 55-75 years) trajectory?  

 

Awful article.  

 

Besides, surely the debate then is about having good mahouts and good practices where there is elephant tourism?  Obviously, that is only right and good.  Such places, and i have been to several, should only be supported and celebrated.  

 

I am not defending all places. I am not saying there are places that will employ cheap labour and untrained mahouts (again I can name places).  I am pointing out that to tar ALL with the same brush is harmful to everyone - not least the captive elephants.  Someone has to feed and care for them.  They eat and cost. A lot.    

 

The issue then is what is the best form of elephant tourism to ensure the wellbeing and safety of elephants AND those that risk their lives caring for them.  

 

But no.  You cannot get your head around the fact that this is a complex issue.  You simply want to end ALL FORMS of elephant tourism.  What then is your solution?  What would you do with the 3500 odd captive elephants?  How would you support those who care for them now and their families?  Where would you put the elephants (they cannot survive in the wild - nor is their the space if they could).  All of the options are much crueler evidently.  Unless, you have a better idea that nobody has thought of yet despite this issue being discussed for years.

 

Unlike the lightweight, superficially researched article on the subject (well, it wasn't exactly on the subject of bull hooks at all) you kindly shared, here is a link to a website actually created by experts in the field.  It is safe to say that all of those who created this are far more educated on captive elephant issues in Thailand than anyone posting here is.  

 

For those who would like to actually learn a thing or two about a complex issue then you're welcome:  

http://acewg.org/who-we-are/.      (look - not a Jemima from Surrey who has spent a week at a 'sanctuary' and now claims to be an expert on captive elephant care in Thailand - but these are actually educated "experts" in the field of captive elephant care - many of them are actually from here (as well as the West for those anti-Thai - a common theme here) and have lived and worked with elephants all their working lives!). Doctors, vets, professors - not barstool lecturers found across TV.  

 

While here are informed answers to common questions...such as "How are elephants trained?"  "What is the bullhook?"  http://acewg.org/frequently-asked-questions-on-elephants-in-tourism/ 

 

Here are some great snippets that will help:

 

On training...

 

"Every captive elephant must have some training to allow it to understand common verbal commands and to accept veterinary treatment. To not train an elephant under human care would be irresponsible. In the days of wild capture, the elephant was often tamed using very harsh techniques, as this wild creature had no previous experience with humans. Old videos labelled as “Phajaan training” can be found on the internet and show cruel training methods using a crush to confine the animal and ‘break its spirit’. But such methods are thankfully much less common today."

 

On bull-hooks...

 

"The training tool called the hook (also called a guide or bullhook) is used to guide an elephant. It consists of a stick with a curved hook at the end. In a free contact environment when humans are in close and unrestricted contact with elephants, the hook is used to guide and cue the elephant with the purpose of ensuring the safety of both humans and elephants.

In a free contact situation, where elephants and humans share the same space, a hook should be carried at all times for safety. The tool was developed over thousands of years to allow a mahout to get an elephant’s attention in an emergency (e.g. sudden loud noises or when elephants fight) or potentially dangerous (potential ingestion of chemical poisons, litter, fallen electric wires etc.) situation. In any situation where an elephant may panic, this tool can be used to ensure the safety of the elephant and those around him/her without causing damage or injury to that elephant. Not carrying a hook is dangerous for both the elephant and any people around. Likewise, using an inappropriate tool, like a machete (knife) or spear to bring an elephant under control can be dangerous and cause harm to the elephant. Some mahouts carry nails in their pockets, which is completely inadequate for controlling an elephant but allows them to give the impression they are using voice alone – commonly done for aesthetic reasons only. The advantage of the hook is that it extends the reach of the arm to allow a safer way for the mahout to signal a command to an elephant."

Now, for those who still can't accept the complexity of these issues I have kindly taken the time to explain to you,  I suggest you stick to your barstools and the Chang served in bottles.   

You just wrote a book!

 

What is your fascination / vested interest in elephant camps? Do you have investment in one, or do you work at one? 

 

There is zero justification for elephant camps, and you are determined to turn a blind eye to the fact they are unethical, outdated and cruel

.

How pathetic to say it's even remotely ok to keep intelligent self aware endangered species in such a way..and to use them to make money. 

 

If you care about these creatures you should put your efforts into finding solutions and alternatives to these camps and shows, rather then defending this inhumane business. 

 

Next time you go to an elephant camp take a look at the animals off show.  See they don't have any freedom, kept on short chains and swaying their heads from side to side from stress. You actually follow the life of a baby elephant from birth and go see how it's trained when taken off the mother.  See the poor animal repeat the same tricks in the heat day after day for 60 plus years with ignorant tourists swarming like flies around them. Think how you would feel being yelled at, and being threatened with punishment with a metal bull hook every day, and having your ear pulled and tugged on constantly to get you to do tricks, and having someone sit on your shoulders for hours every day then chained up to a post in isolation every night.

 

There is something wrong with anybody that can't see that is wrong.

 

 

Edited by jak2002003
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5 hours ago, rob63 said:

Hypocrite alert. You have no problem watching tourists eat hamburgers, kfc and bacon breakfasts, but choose to campaign for elephants?

So basically you think we should treat all animals badly and torturing them is ok with you because people eat chicken burgers? 

 

What sort of argument is s that?😆

 

 

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On 6/30/2020 at 7:32 AM, simon43 said:

My personal view is that these elephants should not be in any kind of elephant camp where they have to perform for tourists or provide rides etc. 

 

As Thailand opens up again to tourism, these camps should be going in the other direction >> closed down for good.

I think Thailand should be closed until it grows up a bit.

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On 7/1/2020 at 9:39 PM, rob63 said:

Hypocrite alert. You have no problem watching tourists eat hamburgers, kfc and bacon breakfasts, but choose to campaign for elephants?

Troll alert.

There's enough tripe talking on this site without newbies, or not, adding to it.

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NOTHING will change....good luck!   

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A flame also an argumentative post have been removed

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