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Is this a sign they not gonna extend the visa amnesty ?


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55 minutes ago, chilly07 said:

 The Chonburi app is 2yrs old and has never worked. The queq app has only 3 districts listed so doesn't work for Chonburi. However if some offices are thinking of opening additional space like Chonburi did at a local school then they might be planning for the amnesty to finish

The Chonburi app of two years ago was a beta version and didn't work but I've just looked at it again, it doesn't look exactly the same as before and it does appear to work now.

 

You have to process it sequentially so can't just scan through all the required options but can look at the info on all the visas/extensions available and all required docs for each one are listed. Selecting the required one and 'apply case' takes you to a check list and an option to download a copy of each document into the system. You must input all docs before you can proceed so I couldn't look further. I don't need to renew my extension until next March.

 

It needs somebody who needs to apply for a new 'permission to stay' now to try the app on line to see if it is successful. 

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4 minutes ago, john terry1001 said:

The Chonburi app of two years ago was a beta version and didn't work but I've just looked at it again, it doesn't look exactly the same as before and it does appear to work now.

 

You have to process it sequentially so can't just scan through all the required options but can look at the info on all the visas/extensions available and all required docs for each one are listed. Selecting the required one and 'apply case' takes you to a check list and an option to download a copy of each document into the system. You must input all docs before you can proceed so I couldn't look further. I don't need to renew my extension until next March.

 

It needs somebody who needs to apply for a new 'permission to stay' now to try the app on line to see if it is successful. 

If IOs can only request the docs listed in the system - not add new "undocumented" ones with each application-attempt, this could be a fantastic way to block corruption.

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22 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

If IOs can only request the docs listed in the system - not add new "undocumented" ones with each application-attempt, this could be a fantastic way to block corruption.

Fully agree!  Not only to block corruption but also to provide full transparency on the actual requirements that need to be fulfilled.

But it implies that the dreaded one listed below needs to be removed.

image.jpeg.76da4a4f0efce91ce1f42d2c45827908.jpeg

 

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1 minute ago, JackThompson said:

If IOs can only request the docs listed in the system - not add new "undocumented" ones with each application-attempt,

 

Download the app and take a look at the app for yourself. It has a total of seven different application options.

 

1, Tourist

2, study in a Government institution

3, study in a private institution

4, married to a Thai husband

5, support a Thai wife

6, support a Thai child

7, retirement 

 

Each section has it's own list of requirements followed by a facility to download each of those listed documents document using the app. 

These downloads must be completed before you can proceed so I don't know what follows.

 

20 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

this could be a fantastic way to block corruption.

I agree. Would be even better if completing this app on line was the first stage of the application. But the documents you supply must be accurate, exactly what they ask for and not 'agent' manipulated.

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3 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Fully agree!  Not only to block corruption but also to provide full transparency on the actual requirements that need to be fulfilled.

But it implies that the dreaded one listed below needs to be removed.

image.jpeg.76da4a4f0efce91ce1f42d2c45827908.jpeg

 

I think there will sometimes be added docs required with some applications, eg: the source of funds. When I did my extension I had three pensions and supplied letters for each. Written in English, the IO didn't understand the letters but her boss did when I showed her and she explained them to the IO. She also advised me that this type of document would be much better if translated into Thai. I agreed with her, there are countless sources of foreign income written/presented in a variety of formats. An IO cannot be expected to understand all of them and will sometimes just reject an application because they don't want to say 'I don't understand'. Maybe we (the applicant) should sometimes consider the IO and put a little more thought and effort into the way we present our application.

 

It can work both ways Immigration needs to be transparent in their request for required information while we sometimes need to be more transparent in the information we supply. 

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5 hours ago, Russell17au said:

I would guess that the amnesty will remain until the land borders are open and that is not a decision that Thailand can make on its own. It involves the adjoining countries as well. There needs to be a meeting between Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia, Malaysia and Thailand to decide when each border is going to be open.

Such a meeting was held on 26 June (all ASEAN nations) and travel arrangements were discussed.  Unfortunately no resolution seems to have been made, or it's being kept quiet until an appropriate time.

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12 minutes ago, john terry1001 said:

I think there will sometimes be added docs required with some applications, eg: the source of funds. When I did my extension I had three pensions and supplied letters for each. Written in English, the IO didn't understand the letters but her boss did when I showed her and she explained them to the IO. She also advised me that this type of document would be much better if translated into Thai. I agreed with her, there are countless sources of foreign income written/presented in a variety of formats. An IO cannot be expected to understand all of them and will sometimes just reject an application because they don't want to say 'I don't understand'. Maybe we (the applicant) should sometimes consider the IO and put a little more thought and effort into the way we present our application.

If you have the income - proven by foreign bank-xfers - the source should not be their problem/issue.  They are just using this as a way to block legit-extensions / force agent-money into their pockets.

 

Quote

It can work both ways Immigration needs to be transparent in their request for required information while we sometimes need to be more transparent in the information we supply. 

Then they can list precisely what they need, so that IOs cannot "improvise" to force legit-applicants to agents, and we can prepare everything needed in-advance.

Edited by JackThompson
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German Embassy to Thailand says: Nothing.

 

That is a good sign.

Being German I do trust my embassy, other than other nationals who seem to keep ranting about theirs, including the one British guy I lend a hand getting out of Thailand when on overstay and out of funds, and was totally dumbfounded when upon me calling them and stating his case phoned him within 10 minutes, when he had been expecting them to take weeks to do so. Nope, actually quite helpful.

 

With land borders closed and everything being in the flow, not least the practicalities of getting back into Thailand after a maybe possible visa-run to Vietnam (by end of July or so) or elsewhere, I am banking on the German embassy presently not foreseeing the sort of problems brought about if Thailand were to *not* prolong that amnesty, possibly under conditions and some fee and showing up personally at some immigration bureau, at such a short notice, i.e. Monday 13th or so. Number of flights outbound are limited after all, with restricted seating and whatever, by next week's cabinet decision we would have a mere 3 weeks to get out, with all the preparations that takes for some of us (like rental contracts, bikes, packing valuable belongings).

 

As they have not, as of today, put up a warning flag by way of travel advice, prominently so, on their website like: "Everybody still in Thailand, please prepare to come home!"
 I am seeing some viable solution coming up next week. No guarantees whatsoever, but I am seeing things that way.

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3 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

If you have the income - proven by foreign bank-xfers - the source should not be their problem/issue.  They are just using this as a way to block legit-extensions / force agent-money into their pockets.

If the first application was via the Immigration phone app agents wouldn't be involved would they. If part of your documents were insufficient you would get a clear request as what you need to supply. Assuming you have that information, agents would need to be involved 

 

9 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Then they can list precisely what they need, so that IOs cannot "improvise" to force legit-applicants to agents.

Exactly. If downloaded via the app, documents supplied/requested would all be stored electronically and could 'lost/mislaid'.

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It seems impossible that they would make everyone leave by July 31st, the day before state owned Thai airways starts to fly again.  Thousands of people could never use their return tickets and Thailand would just keep their money.  The press would horrendous.

 

Just remain calm.  They will announce an extension of amnesty or some special paid extension in a few days.

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2 minutes ago, Phillip9 said:

It seems impossible that they would make everyone leave by July 31st, the day before state owned Thai airways starts to fly again.  Thousands of people could never use their return tickets and Thailand would just keep their money.  The press would horrendous.

 

Just remain calm.  They will announce an extension of amnesty or some special paid extension in a few days.

Nothing keeping anyone from booking single flights, as far as those are affordable for some of us. But, in a nutshell, yes. Logistically infeasible, especially with Covid extra precautions.

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41 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

If you have the income - proven by foreign bank-xfers - the source should not be their problem/issue.  They are just using this as a way to block legit-extensions / force agent-money into their pockets.

...

The IO regulations stipulate that 'reference documents showing the SOURCE of monthly pension' are required. 

But in practice it is up to the discretion of the officer handling your case to ask for such evidence. (when using the monthly-income transfer method or the Embassy statement method).

So it is not a requirement 'invented on the spot'. 

These on the spot-invented ones are mostly of the petty kind, like a 2-sided form being rejected as it has to be one-sided (or vice versa), or the document signed in another color than blue, or requiring color photographs instead of B&W ones (or vice versa), etc.

 

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1 hour ago, Saradoc1972 said:

Nothing keeping anyone from booking single flights, as far as those are affordable for some of us. But, in a nutshell, yes. Logistically infeasible, especially with Covid extra precautions.

My point was that it would be terrible for the reputation of Thai airways and Thailand if they made everyone leave before the state owned airline started to fly.  
 

Who would ever fly Thai airways again if the country that owns the airline would make you leave the day before you could use your return ticket?  

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1 hour ago, Peter Denis said:

The IO regulations stipulate that 'reference documents showing the SOURCE of monthly pension' are required. 

Which prevents people with genuine provable incomes vs "only state pensions" (what I and others have reported) from getting extensions, by not accepting all valid types of income. 
 

1 hour ago, Peter Denis said:

But in practice it is up to the discretion of the officer handling your case to ask for such evidence. (when using the monthly-income transfer method or the Embassy statement method).

So it is not a requirement 'invented on the spot'. 

By being "discretional," it is used to force a quota of people with valid, provable incomes to either pay them off or not get an extension.   Either something is required, or it is not.  And if this were a remotely "valid" request, they would state exactly what kind of document is needed to prove the source of the already proven-income, so that everyone could be prepared.

 

1 hour ago, Peter Denis said:

These on the spot-invented ones are mostly of the petty kind, like a 2-sided form being rejected as it has to be one-sided (or vice versa), or the document signed in another color than blue, or requiring color photographs instead of B&W ones (or vice versa), etc.

There are those too - and don't forget "landlord docs." 

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On 7/5/2020 at 3:11 PM, brewsterbudgen said:

This sign, at the Thai Embassy in Vientiene, could be a sign that visa-issuing may be going back to "normal" soon.  It says they are closing until 10 July to prepare for post-Covid visa procedures.

 

vientiene.jpg.ff1a44ca6e648ffbd59df86d0f0d1cd1.jpg

So How About Savanakhet Consulate ??

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how can people cannot understand something so easy ?!

it's a clear sign that they will extend your former visa on which you were allowed in the country when amnesty was decided !

not difficult, really !

But of course you will have to visit immigration and pay the usual fee...

 

 

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1 hour ago, scoupeo said:

how can people cannot understand something so easy ?!

it's a clear sign that they will extend your former visa on which you were allowed in the country when amnesty was decided !

not difficult, really !

But of course you will have to visit immigration and pay the usual fee...

So far, nothing is set in stone, but they are clearly making preparations based on expected announcements. That they are planning on having lots of people applying for extensions is clear. What the allowable reasons for granting an extension (and for how long) are much less clear. Apparently, they are expecting applications from those with visas on arrival and transit visas who are usually not eligible for any extensions except medical extensions. The conditions for granting extensions might be quite liberal or very strict. We need to wait and see.

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5 hours ago, JackThompson said:
6 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

The IO regulations stipulate that 'reference documents showing the SOURCE of monthly pension' are required. 

Which prevents people with genuine provable incomes vs "only state pensions" (what I and others have reported) from getting extensions, by not accepting all valid types of income. 

Jack, I might be remembering incorrectly, but from other threads you've commented on I seem to remember you saying You supplied the necessary monthly foreign transfer documentation to prove the transfers came into Thailand from a foreign source but you didn't provide written documentation to prove the foreign SOURCE of that income (the income can be from many sources, not just a pension, but each source must be accompanied by it's own documentation to prove that source). eg: If requested you must provide the source of that income to show that it's not the same monthly transfer simply being recycled each month.

 

5 hours ago, JackThompson said:

There are those too - and don't forget "landlord docs."

All of us are required to provide the correct housing documentation. You can't blame Immigration if you can't provide it. If your landlord won't provide yours (for whatever reason) the simple answer is to find a different landlord that will and move.

 

Apologies if I've got it wrong and I'm confusing you with another poster

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On 7/4/2020 at 9:50 PM, JTXR said:


That graphic, for Counter A, B says "Notification of Residence for foreigners". Is this the same as certificate of residence (what we need to extend driver's license?

No, it's probably the TM30 report.

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16 hours ago, john terry1001 said:

Jack, I might be remembering incorrectly, but from other threads you've commented on I seem to remember you saying You supplied the necessary monthly foreign transfer documentation to prove the transfers came into Thailand from a foreign source but you didn't provide written documentation to prove the foreign SOURCE of that income (the income can be from many sources, not just a pension, but each source must be accompanied by it's own documentation to prove that source). eg: If requested you must provide the source of that income to show that it's not the same monthly transfer simply being recycled each month.

I provided proof of the income, and was told "Only a Foreign State Pension" is accepted.  That was at an Issan office.  Proof of any other source was useless.  In addition, if the income is a proven foreign-xfer, why ask for source documents?  I am trying to support my Thai wife here - why do they work so hard to try to prevent that, unless I pay them off?

 

Then, in Bangkok, I was told I needed to provide the docs needed for a Non-B, even though I was applying for reason of a Thai Wife - docs which the experts here insisted were not required.  Another poster verified my experience here:


But while that was successful for him, note that if your employer is using the options provided by the tax-office due to covid (deferred payments), or your office is closed due to covid (no way to take pics w/ staff), they will not process your extension, so force you to abandon your family or overstay - unless we get another extension of some sort amnesty-extension for August, Sept, and Oct, so we could have the needed 3 months of on-time tax-payments.

 

Quote

All of us are required to provide the correct housing documentation. You can't blame Immigration if you can't provide it. If your landlord won't provide yours (for whatever reason) the simple answer is to find a different landlord that will and move.

No.  Some are not required to present ANY housing-docs - for retirment, especially.  Others require landlord's ID and contract.  

 

Only when trying to block family-based extensions do some offices ask for the landlord's house-book and chanote, which have nothing to do with the reason for extension.  In this case, they are visiting your home to verify you live there with your wife, so is especially irrelevant.  

In my case (Jomtien, where my income was not an issue), after providing both (air-mailed from overseas landlord), they insisted the landlord must fly back to thailand, visit an amphur, and obtain a new copy just for them.

 

Quote

Apologies if I've got it wrong and I'm confusing you with another poster

I don't think you are - just missed some of the details and context, which proves beyond any doubt that corruption is the cause of all this - nothing to do with being an honest applicant.

Edited by JackThompson
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2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

I provided proof of the income, and was told "Only a Foreign State Pension" is accepted.  That was at an Issan office.  Proof of any other source was useless.  In addition, if the income is a proven foreign-xfer, why ask for source documents?  I am trying to support my Thai wife here - why do they work so hard to try to prevent that, unless I pay them off?

It’s definitely not confined to "Only a Foreign State Pension".

There have been many posters who have questioned that point you keep making and have confirmed you can use a variety of sources as your source of income.

 

I had a similar issue with an IO who didn’t understand the system. She insisted I could only use one pension (I have three). I insisted on seeing her boss who confirmed, I was  correct, in that I could use any number of income sources any it wasn’t restricted to pensions. What did you do to question what that IO told you?

 

What the IO can insist on seeing is, not just proof of a foreign transfer each and every month, but also documentary proof of the SOURCE of the income you are declaring (eg: pension, interest from investment, etc). Otherwise the same 'monthly transfer' could just be sent round each month. 

 

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Then, in Bangkok, I was told I needed to provide the docs needed for a Non-B, even though I was applying for reason of a Thai Wife - docs which the experts here insisted were not required.  Another poster verified my experience here:


But while that was successful, note that if your employer is using the options provided by the tax-office due to covid (deferred payments), or your office is closed due to covid (no way to take pics w/ staff), they will not process your extension, so force you to abandon your family or overstay - unless we get another extension of some sort amnesty-extension for August, Sept, and Oct, so we could have the needed 3 months of on-time tax-payments.

I’m not familiar with income requirements but the example you supplied does seem to be a one off connected to the current COVID 19 problems. I know UJ and Peter Denis have both commented on threads in the past relating to people using income in Thailand as (part) proof of income for a marriage extension. But I know little about the process

What is confusing is that you stated elsewhere in your post “In my case (Jomtien, where my income was not an issue)”. Why would you not just use the normal monthly income method at CW?

 

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

No.  Some are not required to present ANY housing-docs - for retirment, especially.  Others require landlord's ID and contract.  

 

Only when trying to block family-based extensions do some offices ask for the landlord's house-book and chanote, which have nothing to do with the reason for extension.  In this case, they are visiting your home to verify you live there with your wife, so is especially irrelevant.  

In my case (Jomtien, where my income was not an issue), after providing both (air-mailed from overseas landlord), they insisted the landlord must fly back to thailand, visit an amphur, and obtain a new copy just for them.

Does your landlord not use a management company to look after the house while he’s abroad? They can supply the necessary docs for Immigration.

 

I have been travelling here annually since 1994 and living in Thailand since 2004 (just over 16 years) so have watched the various visa/extension changes that have occurred over those years. I have done retirement/marriage extensions each time at either Jomtien or Si Racha every time and, from memory, have always had to provide my proof of address every time. In the early days things were more relaxed and, on retirement, just the rental agreement was needed. After we married and bought a house, I had to supply a copy of my wife’s Tabien Baan, until I got my own Yellow book and I’ve just used that since.

 

In the early days I was told (like in the UK) sham marriages were quite common because foreigners only needed to prove 400k/40kpm to get an extension. Taking your wife to immigration, marriage/wife’s docs, photos and home visits, etc, were all part of the system to prove the marriage was legal and above board.

 

It’s just a ‘once a year’ requirement, it’s not a hassle.

 

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

I don't think you are - just missed some of the details and context, which proves beyond any doubt that corruption is the cause of all this - nothing to do with being an honest applicant.

I’m glad I didn’t get the wrong person….I’d have felt a right <deleted> if I had. Sorry if I've been taking things out of context. I do remember having the odd discussion about these issues with you in past threads where you felt you had been unfairly treated, to the point that you always seem negative about it now.

I think the folder Immigration holds on you possibly has flag on it saying “can be difficult…..check everything”…………….. I do hope not.????

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To clarify - I have applied at multiple offices around Thailand at different times, and had my 100% legit applications blocked for different reasons each time.

 

18 hours ago, john terry1001 said:

It’s definitely not confined to "Only a Foreign State Pension".

There have been many posters who have questioned that point you keep making and have confirmed you can use a variety of sources as your source of income.

 

I had a similar issue with an IO who didn’t understand the system. She insisted I could only use one pension (I have three). I insisted on seeing her boss who confirmed, I was  correct, in that I could use any number of income sources any it wasn’t restricted to pensions. What did you do to question what that IO told you?

 

What the IO can insist on seeing is, not just proof of a foreign transfer each and every month, but also documentary proof of the SOURCE of the income you are declaring (eg: pension, interest from investment, etc). Otherwise the same 'monthly transfer' could just be sent round each month. 

When I presented my embassy income-letter and bank-book showing international-xfers,  the IO asked if it was "from a state pension."  I told the IO (this was in Issan) the truth, and was told, "Only State Pension Income qualifies."  She said this comes from the district office, who has to sign-off on all "family based" extensions - but NOT for retirement-based, which are much easier, since they don't have families to use as extortion-leverage for bigger payoffs.

 

Quote

I’m not familiar with income requirements but the example you supplied does seem to be a one off connected to the current COVID 19 problems. I know UJ and Peter Denis have both commented on threads in the past relating to people using income in Thailand as (part) proof of income for a marriage extension. But I know little about the process

This is back to recently at CW.  There are the covid-issues, but also they fact they just changed the requirements to include Non-B type documents never reported before my experience.  It was dismissed until someone else reported the same.  I've been the "canary in the coal mine" on a few policy-changes over the years.

 

Quote

What is confusing is that you stated elsewhere in your post “In my case (Jomtien, where my income was not an issue)”. Why would you not just use the normal monthly income method at CW?

First Non-O-ME was when Jomtien blocked me.  The Issan-attempt was when that first Non-O-ME was going to expire.  I was not employed within Thailand during that period - I had an overseas company, and more than sufficient income from that. 

 

A primary reason I took a job here, was because immigration would not recognize my valid overseas income, and embassy-letters had gone away, making things even harder than before.  Better for Thailand if I was bringing in fresh cash from overseas, but appeared they prefer me to recycle money within Thailand, instead.   Turns out, they just want me to leave my wife or pay them off.

 

Quote

Does your landlord not use a management company to look after the house while he’s abroad? They can supply the necessary docs for Immigration.

Yes, and I even brought the Jurstic Person to the office.  The whole point is to block a legit-application - not find out things about your landlord which are irrelevant, anyway.

 

Quote

 

I have been travelling here annually since 1994 and living in Thailand since 2004 (just over 16 years) so have watched the various visa/extension changes that have occurred over those years. I have done retirement/marriage extensions each time at either Jomtien or Si Racha every time and, from memory, have always had to provide my proof of address every time. In the early days things were more relaxed and, on retirement, just the rental agreement was needed. After we married and bought a house, I had to supply a copy of my wife’s Tabien Baan, until I got my own Yellow book and I’ve just used that since.

 

In the early days I was told (like in the UK) sham marriages were quite common because foreigners only needed to prove 400k/40kpm to get an extension. Taking your wife to immigration, marriage/wife’s docs, photos and home visits, etc, were all part of the system to prove the marriage was legal and above board.

No problem taking my wife - if they would not be ABUSIVE to her - and showing the marriage is legit.  If they want to come and visit - fine.  Unfortunately, it's not about proving things are true - it's about them getting more income from agent-laundered payoffs than their salaries.  The only "sham marriages" I ever read about were people from 3rd world countries - not those from nations where wages are higher than here.

 

If you own your own condo or live at your wife's house-book address, they can't use the "landlord docs" + "no agent money" disqualification system.
 

Quote

It’s just a ‘once a year’ requirement, it’s not a hassle.

 

I’m glad I didn’t get the wrong person….I’d have felt a right <deleted> if I had. Sorry if I've been taking things out of context. I do remember having the odd discussion about these issues with you in past threads where you felt you had been unfairly treated, to the point that you always seem negative about it now.

I think the folder Immigration holds on you possibly has flag on it saying “can be difficult…..check everything”…………….. I do hope not.????

Likely so, though I have never lost my composure in front of them.  My wife has kept it together as well, at least until we get out of the office.  If they could read my mind, it would be another story.

 

And yes, "negative" in that I know what they are, and what they do, and why, and don't pretend they actually care if things are "legit" or not - or they would not operate a payoff-system where folks who really don't qualify can buy extensions.

Edited by JackThompson
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