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Who Has Bought or Sold Their Own Property In The Last Few Months?


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Well I am a real estate person but I think I qualify to comment because I brought a 8M house (for myself) in Nonthaburi in February.

The bank's mortgage valuation on the date of transfer was 500K more than I paid. Another encouraging thing for me is when we paid our deposit the houses in the estate started at 6.5M and now the same styles start at 8.5M. The first three phases are sold out, and they are still receiving orders for the final phases.

What method are you using to 'own' the land?

My wife owns the house 100%, and I am her guarantor on the mortgage, which of course is 100% legal.

Edited by quiksilva
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All this worry from a guy about legal/illegal and just take a look out your window to see all the legal versus 'grey' activities going on.

Anyone so worried about this 100% 'legal' avenue is not really going to get on to well in Los me thinks.

And with your 'legal' mind, please explain your dubious house ownership problems.

Or not....maybe best just sitting in your 'legal' apartment...wondering what all the illegals are getting up to !

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- My wife and I found 38.6 rai next to a resort.

- We convinced her to sell the whole thing, no hagling, and she would pay 100% of all fees.

- Went down to the land office on Kong Kean Friday, with a cahsiers check and 1 million baht in cash, and we now have a Chanote.

- The resort gets about 1.6 million per rai.

You got 38.6 rai worth ~60M baht for 1M? "Deals are available" you can say that again :o

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- My wife and I found 38.6 rai next to a resort.

- We convinced her to sell the whole thing, no hagling, and she would pay 100% of all fees.

- Went down to the land office on Kong Kean Friday, with a cahsiers check and 1 million baht in cash, and we now have a Chanote.

- The resort gets about 1.6 million per rai.

You got 38.6 rai worth ~60M baht for 1M? "Deals are available" you can say that again :o

My guess is that the cashiers check was for an amount significantly more than 1 million baht.

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Every single contribution to this thread is about owning land and houses, which is of course illegal. The title of this thread, is I am afraid, contrary to the other issues of property ownership in Thailand i.e. apartments, which are legal and are doing fine thank you.

Please cease confusing the two! Confusing illegal and legal activity serves only one purpose.

pkrv, your statement is a prime example of someone talking out of their a$$. There are many LEGAL ways to set up land ownership, the key being the definition of 'ownership' which means the use of the land, not the personal possession of it.

For your information, owning a house in Thailand has never been illegal, please consult the facts before spreading your verbal rubbish.

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Sorry to interrupt, but we are SO off topic now.

Has anyone "Bought or Sold Their Own Property In The Last Few Months?" is the title of the thread.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. We are discussing a very select group of Ferangs who can contribute here, those that have the correct 49% stake in an apartment block, can actually own the property freehold.

Of all the replies I think Quicksilva's (whose posts I watch with deep interest and respect) most effectively summed it up, via the mortgage route. You (Ferangs) do not own your own property, but of course your Thai partners can. Even quicksilva's solution acknowledges this.

To answer the point yes I am buying. Also some 1,000 Bangkok apartments are nearing completion across multiple projects in the CBD by year-end. All have been sold (otherwise they could not have been built).

When we talk of property ownership (as in the west etc) we can only discuss the 49% fraction of an apartment building. Everything else is either owned by your partner, (not you, why are you contributing, do you believe you own it?), or is illegal.

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Sorry to interrupt, but we are SO off topic now.

Has anyone "Bought or Sold Their Own Property In The Last Few Months?" is the title of the thread.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. We are discussing a very select group of Ferangs who can contribute here, those that have the correct 49% stake in an apartment block, can actually own the property freehold.

Of all the replies I think Quicksilva's (whose posts I watch with deep interest and respect) most effectively summed it up, via the mortgage route. You (Ferangs) do not own your own property, but of course your Thai partners can. Even quicksilva's solution acknowledges this.

To answer the point yes I am buying. Also some 1,000 Bangkok apartments are nearing completion across multiple projects in the CBD by year-end. All have been sold (otherwise they could not have been built).

When we talk of property ownership (as in the west etc) we can only discuss the 49% fraction of an apartment building. Everything else is either owned by your partner, (not you, why are you contributing, do you believe you own it?), or is illegal.

Pkrv,

I assume you are talking about 'condos' when you say 'apartments' - there is a clear legal distinction between the two in Thailand.

At least 8,000 condos are being completed in the current year in CBD (although I would agree there is no clearly defined CBD in BKK). What do you mean they are all sold or they couldnt be built? Banks usually require 40% presale (not 100%) for financing of a project and some projects are self-financed.

As for the 51% - clearly Thais do buy condos (in fact the condo developments I am involved with are bought almost exclusively by Thais which makes the 49% fraction irrelevant).

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Sorry to interrupt, but we are SO off topic now.

Has anyone "Bought or Sold Their Own Property In The Last Few Months?" is the title of the thread.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. We are discussing a very select group of Ferangs who can contribute here, those that have the correct 49% stake in an apartment block, can actually own the property freehold.

Of all the replies I think Quicksilva's (whose posts I watch with deep interest and respect) most effectively summed it up, via the mortgage route. You (Ferangs) do not own your own property, but of course your Thai partners can. Even quicksilva's solution acknowledges this.

To answer the point yes I am buying. Also some 1,000 Bangkok apartments are nearing completion across multiple projects in the CBD by year-end. All have been sold (otherwise they could not have been built).

When we talk of property ownership (as in the west etc) we can only discuss the 49% fraction of an apartment building. Everything else is either owned by your partner, (not you, why are you contributing, do you believe you own it?), or is illegal.

Pkrv,

I assume you are talking about 'condos' when you say 'apartments' - there is a clear legal distinction between the two in Thailand.

At least 8,000 condos are being completed in the current year in CBD (although I would agree there is no clearly defined CBD in BKK). What do you mean they are all sold or they couldnt be built? Banks usually require 40% presale (not 100%) for financing of a project and some projects are self-financed.

As for the 51% - clearly Thais do buy condos (in fact the condo developments I am involved with are bought almost exclusively by Thais which makes the 49% fraction irrelevant).

Look I do know I have touched a raw nerve here, trying to group house purchases, condominiums, regions of Thailand, even areas of Bangkok is in my opinion absolutely insane, and that is the single point I wished to make.

Yes when I have been making SWIFT transfers I use the word Condominium. There will be a CBD, The Park, The Athenee and The Manhattan were the projects I refereed to as coming on stream, all other infrastructure is either in place or being built for Bangkok to achieve its CBD goal.

Effectively this is a Ferang forum, Thai issues and Ferang issues are simply not the same, and no disrespect rules simply differ, though (and I am deliberately being provocative) when people discuss houses, perhaps they should, out of respect, refer to their Thai partners house?

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pkrv, you have just joined this thread to be a pain in the ass. Do you think you are actually "teaching" us the laws of the country?

Dont you think your being pedantic?, we all know what the laws state and nearly all of the posters have posted info that was the point of the thread.

So, we know the laws, you have again and again put your point across, so I hope you have nothing else to post on the thread.

Go count the floor tiles in your apartment if your bored.

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oops...my 2 cents worth...I have been cruising the various real estate web sites off and on for the past year or so. I was just on one for Hua Hin and noticed the same property I was interested in a year ago is still for sale...and seems to be a lower price. Same with one that has 2 properties listed near Pattaya that I thought looked interesting. Both have been there for over a year...apparently have not sold.

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I know of a few places that have sold recently - mainly leaseholds or condos though. The Hua Hin condo market is apparently going fairly well whilst the rest of the country's real estate market has hit unprecedented lows. One big Samui agent told me recently he hadn't had ANY sales leads for 6 days - a new record. However, I've been notified of leasehold sales in Pattaya and Samui in the last 2 weeks.

I'm not an agent, before anyone starts... 1Rai.com is a property listing portal where lots of different agents list their properties for sale.

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There is so much talk about the down turn in the market and I have seen it first hand myself.

I am interested to know who has actually sold a property in the last few months. I dont want to hear from the agents as that is not the point of the thread. Ive been in real estate here for a long time and I KNOW, things are more than slow in Phuket.

Interested to hear from the sellers please. Property type, location and price.

I have a beautiful house in Bang Saray. Since the Thai Government announced that they were going to investigate all the tricky dicky Thai Corps opened by Gooofs like me, I totally expect nothing but the worst from the Thai's. All my friends have their homes set up the same way, some have millions of USD in Thailand. If the Thai's dont steal the property, you can be assured they are going to HORSE F_ _ K out of thousands, tens of thousands of worthless USD. I have my home for sale 20K under what I paid for it two years ago, and not one looker!!!!!

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There is so much talk about the down turn in the market and I have seen it first hand myself.

I am interested to know who has actually sold a property in the last few months. I dont want to hear from the agents as that is not the point of the thread. Ive been in real estate here for a long time and I KNOW, things are more than slow in Phuket.

Interested to hear from the sellers please. Property type, location and price.

I have a beautiful house in Bang Saray. Since the Thai Government announced that they were going to investigate all the tricky dicky Thai Corps opened by Gooofs like me, I totally expect nothing but the worst from the Thai's. All my friends have their homes set up the same way, some have millions of USD in Thailand. If the Thai's dont steal the property, you can be assured they are going to HORSE F_ _ K out of thousands, tens of thousands of worthless USD. I have my home for sale 20K under what I paid for it two years ago, and not one looker!!!!!

Well this sounds like a troll. However giving the benefit of the doubt to this newbie, it would appear then to highlight that no matter how much wealth one has, or claim to have, to attempt to circumvent the law, even in Thailand, is unwise. Why cry Wolf now because you have been naughty boys and may get your hands slapped ? Please don't attempt to justify your own shortcomings by attempting, unsuccesfully, to blame the Thais for your own imprudence in financial investment. Annoying it may be to potentially have your investment put at risk, but then you did not mitigate that risk by knowingly investing in this manner originally. Like gambling, if you can not afford to lose it, don't risk it as you have only yourself to blame if it goes wrong.

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It seems the answer to the OP's question is no one amongst the 1700 + viewers has bought or sold their own property in the last few months! This is as I expected. It is not exactly good news but it makes me feel better about my own lack of success.

I am especially pleased that the real estate "industry" folks did not invade this thread with their usual "optimism". I also feel sorry for them as this must be a difficult time.

The situation will change, but it may take some time.

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Bought a condo at Urbana Langsuan ,238sq ft, 30 year Lease hold,34th floor, 16.5 mil. Bought it about 16 months ago. Did some work in it (about 1.5 mil) and sold it 6 months ago for 21.5 mil.

Think I got lucky...was only on the market for 2 months and bought buy an older Scandinavian guy and his wife who didnt care about it being leasehold.

Renting now until Athenee Residence is complete.

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There is so much talk about the down turn in the market and I have seen it first hand myself.

I am interested to know who has actually sold a property in the last few months. I dont want to hear from the agents as that is not the point of the thread. Ive been in real estate here for a long time and I KNOW, things are more than slow in Phuket.

Interested to hear from the sellers please. Property type, location and price.

I have a beautiful house in Bang Saray. Since the Thai Government announced that they were going to investigate all the tricky dicky Thai Corps opened by Gooofs like me, I totally expect nothing but the worst from the Thai's. All my friends have their homes set up the same way, some have millions of USD in Thailand. If the Thai's dont steal the property, you can be assured they are going to HORSE F_ _ K out of thousands, tens of thousands of worthless USD. I have my home for sale 20K under what I paid for it two years ago, and not one looker!!!!!

Well this sounds like a troll. However giving the benefit of the doubt to this newbie, it would appear then to highlight that no matter how much wealth one has, or claim to have, to attempt to circumvent the law, even in Thailand, is unwise. Why cry Wolf now because you have been naughty boys and may get your hands slapped ? Please don't attempt to justify your own shortcomings by attempting, unsuccesfully, to blame the Thais for your own imprudence in financial investment. Annoying it may be to potentially have your investment put at risk, but then you did not mitigate that risk by knowingly investing in this manner originally. Like gambling, if you can not afford to lose it, don't risk it as you have only yourself to blame if it goes wrong.

Espirt . . . . First, I am not taking a shot at you. . . .

But the Thai government for more than 15 years has permitted and condoned the formation of corporations by foreigners for the purpose of owning land. The Land office, the Company's office, Thai accounting firms, Thai lawyers all condoned the transactions and the company scheme. It is an act of confiscation for the Thai government to challenge the the ownership rights of those who bought under a scheme permitted for years by the Thai govenment.

I do not own any land in Thailand under the company scheme.

I find it deeply offensive that a Thai can go to my county, buy land there, and be assured of full ownership rights, while my country men face the loss of ownership rights in property they have bought through a scheme accepted for years by the Thai government.

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tim77,

Bottom line, no matter how many agencies or government bodies condoned or allowed the practice to own land via a company scheme, it was always illegal and against the obvious spirit of the law.

So, on first finding out about this anomaly to buy land in Thailand as a foreigner (i.e you cannot), it will have been very obvious that you cannot legally do it. It is simply illegal to own land and unless you want to be party to a fudge around and great risk, you should not try it through a company scheme either.

Therefore my friend, you get what you deserve if at a later date the repercussions of your actions come back to bite you, no matter how many other people also did it or agencies promoted it. You cannot claim ignorance (not a defence anyway). You clearly knew what you were doing and why you eeded to do it. The fact that is was tollerated for years is no justification for it either. These arguments are simply childish in any court of law.

Therefore, it may sicken you, but it is equally clear that anyone buying a house on land through a company scheme had to do it this way in order to circumvent the law and any idiot could foresee that sometime in the future the law may well be properly enforced in a 3rd world country where laws and corruption walk hand in hand.

I realise you do not personally own land in this way, but the above is my view in principle for many that do and to take issue with your point. I would never over invest in Thailand or risk large sums of money on schemes that are dubious right from the start, even against existing law, let alone the way Thais generally stitch up, cheat foreigners and amend laws when able.

I also find it sticks in the throat that a Thai can own property in my country the same as you or I. One point is that it is if they can afford to and in Thailand the ristrictions are to stop foreigners further pricing out the local Thais and property prices going sky high from foreign investment. If I were a Thai I would agree with limits on foreign property land investment 100%.

Edited by twix38
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tim77,

Bottom line, no matter how many agencies or government bodies condoned or allowed the practice to own land via a company scheme, it was always illegal and against the obvious spirit of the law.

There is a basic flaw in your premise. It has never been illegal to establish a company in Thailand with different classes of shares (and different voting rights). As long as Thai shareholders hold a majority of capital shares in a company on a bone fide basis (i.e., not holding such shares on a nominee basis for foreign shareholders), then such company is a "Thai" company. Indeed, if such circumstances were illegal, it would not be necessary to amend the law (as currently being pursued by this military-installed cabinet).

I do not hold Thai land via a company, but I do agree that if the government now changes the Foreign Business Law (and eventually the Land Act) redefining such companies as "foreign" and applies such changes in the law retroactively to existing companies, such would be nothing short of confiscation of assets by the state.

I share tim77's sentiments.

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Tim77,

I'm really really not trying to flame you here so please remain calm...but...don't you really think that it is naive to think that governments around the world operate from the standpoint of being fair? If you look at the history of almost any gov't it seems to me that you will easily find a multitude of actions that weren't really fair. I would never buy land illegally here in Thailand no matter how easy the authorities made it and no matter who condoned it...and this has nothing to do with any idealism on my part and not wanting to break the law...in general I am a scoflaw....the reason is it puts you in a position much akin to letting them get a grip on your gonads. It's sort of like smoking marijuana in the 60's in the getto....the cops allowed it and it flourished and it gave the cops an excuse to arrest a huge segment of the population anytime they wanted to!!!

Chownah

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There is so much talk about the down turn in the market and I have seen it first hand myself.

I am interested to know who has actually sold a property in the last few months. I dont want to hear from the agents as that is not the point of the thread. Ive been in real estate here for a long time and I KNOW, things are more than slow in Phuket.

Interested to hear from the sellers please. Property type, location and price.

I have a beautiful house in Bang Saray. Since the Thai Government announced that they were going to investigate all the tricky dicky Thai Corps opened by Gooofs like me, I totally expect nothing but the worst from the Thai's. All my friends have their homes set up the same way, some have millions of USD in Thailand. If the Thai's dont steal the property, you can be assured they are going to HORSE F_ _ K out of thousands, tens of thousands of worthless USD. I have my home for sale 20K under what I paid for it two years ago, and not one looker!!!!!

Well this sounds like a troll. However giving the benefit of the doubt to this newbie, it would appear then to highlight that no matter how much wealth one has, or claim to have, to attempt to circumvent the law, even in Thailand, is unwise. Why cry Wolf now because you have been naughty boys and may get your hands slapped ? Please don't attempt to justify your own shortcomings by attempting, unsuccesfully, to blame the Thais for your own imprudence in financial investment. Annoying it may be to potentially have your investment put at risk, but then you did not mitigate that risk by knowingly investing in this manner originally. Like gambling, if you can not afford to lose it, don't risk it as you have only yourself to blame if it goes wrong.

Espirt . . . . First, I am not taking a shot at you. . . .

But the Thai government for more than 15 years has permitted and condoned the formation of corporations by foreigners for the purpose of owning land. The Land office, the Company's office, Thai accounting firms, Thai lawyers all condoned the transactions and the company scheme. It is an act of confiscation for the Thai government to challenge the the ownership rights of those who bought under a scheme permitted for years by the Thai govenment.

I do not own any land in Thailand under the company scheme.

I find it deeply offensive that a Thai can go to my county, buy land there, and be assured of full ownership rights, while my country men face the loss of ownership rights in property they have bought through a scheme accepted for years by the Thai government.

Tim77, Got to agree with you on the last point, but not just because of Thailand. I think all countries should have reciprocal arrangements so that what Brits can't do in Thailand, Thais can't do in the UK or anywhere else/countries for that matter. But guess that would be almost impossible to enact

Edited by gummy
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"There is a basic flaw in your premise. It has never been illegal to establish a company in Thailand with different classes of shares (and different voting rights). As long as Thai shareholders hold a majority of capital shares in a company on a bone fide basis (i.e., not holding such shares on a nominee basis for foreign shareholders), then such company is a "Thai" company. Indeed, if such circumstances were illegal, it would not be necessary to amend the law (as currently being pursued by this military-installed cabinet)."

With regard to the above quote from trajan. There is no flaw as I did not go into the reasons for the illegality of owning land in a company name. You are right, but in the instance I am referring to, predominantely it is universally and well known that the Thais do NOT hold the majority of shares on a bone fide basis. It is nearly always the case that the funds came from the foreign purchaser (of course) to buy the property and makes the transaction illegal when investigated.

Come on, this is so well known and the method used and which we are discussing that it hardly needs me to spell it out when talking about this exact set of circumstances when I am describing a typical house (and land) purchase by a foreigner through a company scheme. The scheme is set up for that purpose only and not to run a multi million pound business or anything like it!!!!!!!

So, quite obviously an illegal action in those circumstances and known to be so. Hence my view and conclusions apply exactly as before. Caveat Emptor

Edited by twix38
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I find it deeply offensive that a Thai can go to my county, buy land there, and be assured of full ownership rights, while my country men face the loss of ownership rights in property they have bought through a scheme accepted for years by the Thai government.

Tim77, Got to agree with you on the last point, but not just because of Thailand. I think all countries should have reciprocal arrangements so that what Brits can't do in Thailand, Thais can't do in the UK or anywhere else/countries for that matter. But guess that would be almost impossible to enact

I find it funny that Brits would find it offensive that Thais can buy property in Thailand while they can't here. I bet a few Thais find it offensive that for 1000 baht Brits are shorttiming lovely beauties while Thais in Britain would be deeply offended by what pleasures that sum of money would supply. Oh, the injustices of the world!

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There is a real question under Thai law as to when a Company is Thai, and when a Company is not Thai.

Depending on the intended function of the Company, various levels of shareholding are required to meet the required level of Thainess.

For some purposes a company that has 51% of its shares owned by Thai individuals is consider to be a Thai company.

For other purposes (e.g., land ownership) a company that has less than 40% of its shares owned by non-Thais is (or sadly, perhaps was) considered Thai.

Where a government has for many years knowingly accepted a level of shareholders to meet the "Thainess" test, and then acts to change this level without protecting those who relied on standards established by that government, this is confiscation.

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With regard to the above quote from trajan. There is no flaw as I did not go into the reasons for the illegality of owning land in a company name. You are right, but in the instance I am referring to, predominantely it is universally and well known that the Thais do NOT hold the majority of shares on a bone fide basis. It is nearly always the case that the funds came from the foreign purchaser (of course) to buy the property and makes the transaction illegal when investigated.

Come on, this is so well known and the method used and which we are discussing that it hardly needs me to spell it out when talking about this exact set of circumstances when I am describing a typical house (and land) purchase by a foreigner through a company scheme. The scheme is set up for that purpose only and not to run a multi million pound business or anything like it!!!!!!!

So, quite obviously an illegal action in those circumstances and known to be so. Hence my view and conclusions apply exactly as before. Caveat Emptor

Sorry, but there is a flaw in your premise. You point out and fixate only on corporate structures where Thai shareholders simply hold shares as nominees on behalf of foreign shareholders in order to transform such companies into "Thai" companies to allow such companies to engage in foreign restricted business activities (or to hold land). This is clearly illegal and has always been illegal. (The current laws and the various proposed amendments to the laws do not change the fact that this circumstance is illegal). There is no need to debate this as this has been discussed ad nauseum.

HOWEVER, there are many many instances where the corporate structures have been legally arranged (even in a run-of-the-mill house and land purchase) so that the companies are "Thai" under current law. The current military-installed government is proposing to CHANGE the law (the Foriegn Business Act and inevitably the Land Act) to make these arrangements illegal going forward AND to make such changes in the law retroactively applicable to existing legally established companies. If these proposals to change the law and to make such changes retroactively applicable are in fact implemented, then assets (business assets under the FBA and land assets under the LA) will effectively be unjustly confiscated in some form. That is where your previous comments are flawed.//

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