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nagiewont

Pronounciation of เชาวน์

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Posted (edited)

Why is the second syllable of the word เชาวน์  (วน์) not audible, and the pronounciation is /chao/, as if it was just ช plus vowel เ-า?

 

Also - what is the mark over this letter น์?

Edited by nagiewont

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The mark means it's a silent letter.

 

Chow / Chao

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2 minutes ago, johnray said:

The mark means it's a silent letter.

 

Chow / Chao

Well, that makes sense. Thank you.

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Dont take out of context normaly mean brain or you have knowledge depens how you use!

 

22 minutes ago, johnray said:

The mark means it's a silent letter.

 

Chow / Chao

 

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10 hours ago, johnray said:

The mark means it's a silent letter.

 

The mark, known as การันต์ /kaaˑran/ or ไม้ทัณฑฆาต /máyˑthanˑthaˑkhâat/, normally silences one consonant, in this case it's silencing the final two consonants.  There is at least one word in which it silences the final three consonants.

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I have seen this word before, does anybody know what it means and why it has this incredible spelling? 

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According to thai-language.com dictionary it refers to wit, mental agility, quickness of mind. Also can be nickname for a boy. Spoken with mid-tone.

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Posted (edited)

Thanks I didn't think to look there because I assumed, (you know what they say about "Ass U and me ) that it was a new word.  I see that it comes from Sandskrit. 

Edited by tgeezer

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6 hours ago, Oxx said:

 

The mark, known as การันต์ /kaaˑran/ or ไม้ทัณฑฆาต /máyˑthanˑthaˑkhâat/, normally silences one consonant, in this case it's silencing the final two consonants.  There is at least one word in which it silences the final three consonants.

If placed over the final consonant of a syllable with an unwritten vowel, I think it always silences the whole syllable.

 

I'm not sure what word you are thinking of but suspect the first of your three consonants would belong to a linker syllable, so would be silenced either because its main syllable has gone or just because it'd leave you with a weak syllable at the end of a word. I'd be interested to know of any exceptions to that pattern.

 

 

1 hour ago, tgeezer said:

I have seen this word before, does anybody know what it means and why it has this incredible spelling? 

I won't claim to know, but based on the entry in the RID you can reconstruct it like this:

 

The original pronunciation was ชะวะนะ (there's a name for this way of reading Thai words of Pali / Sanskrit origin but I can't remember it). If you say ชะวะ fast enough it begins to sound like เชา, just because that's the sound you get when you round your lips while saying a. That gives you an Indic word with a final syllable ending in อะ, and that type of syllable tends to be dropped, as in สิงห์ etc. This may be because it is more natural to stress the longer / more complex syllable, and Thai can't really accommodate a weak syllable at the end of a word - that would explain why the final consonant in words like จักร comes back to life when you attach another syllable that can take stress, so that what was originally the final syllable becomes the penultimate syllable and can be weak. Whatever the reason, at that point the original word has been reduced to เชา. It looks as though the spelling was changed to reflect both the new pronunciation and the Indic spelling.

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50 minutes ago, JHicks said:

I'm not sure what word you are thinking of but suspect the first of your three consonants would belong to a linker syllable

 

I can't recall at the moment, but it is three consonants - not a linker syllable - and it's a word associated with royalty.

 

One case of two consonants and a vowel being killed is กษัตริย์ /kaˑsàt/ meaning "pure".

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4 hours ago, JHicks said:

If placed over the final consonant of a syllable with an unwritten vowel, I think it always silences the whole syllable.

 

I'm not sure what word you are thinking of but suspect the first of your three consonants would belong to a linker syllable, so would be silenced either because its main syllable has gone or just because it'd leave you with a weak syllable at the end of a word. I'd be interested to know of any exceptions to that pattern.

 

 

I won't claim to know, but based on the entry in the RID you can reconstruct it like this:

 

The original pronunciation was ชะวะนะ (there's a name for this way of reading Thai words of Pali / Sanskrit origin but I can't remember it). If you say ชะวะ fast enough it begins to sound like เชา, just because that's the sound you get when you round your lips while saying a. That gives you an Indic word with a final syllable ending in อะ, and that type of syllable tends to be dropped, as in สิงห์ etc. This may be because it is more natural to stress the longer / more complex syllable, and Thai can't really accommodate a weak syllable at the end of a word - that would explain why the final consonant in words like จักร comes back to life when you attach another syllable that can take stress, so that what was originally the final syllable becomes the penultimate syllable and can be weak. Whatever the reason, at that point the original word has been reduced to เชา. It looks as though the spelling was changed to reflect both the new pronunciation and the Indic spelling.

That makes perfect sense, เอา represents อัว.      
It is strange that when mixing the vowels อี. อื  and อู with า,  อัว was chosen and not อูว . 

I have just discovered that จักรยาน is said จักกระยาน. 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

That makes perfect sense, เอา represents อัว.   

อัว would (if it were a word) be pronounced /ʔua/ as in วัว /wua/ meaning "cow".  Nothing like the /aw/ of เอา.

 

 

Edited by Oxx
Wrong previous poster

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3 hours ago, tgeezer said:

That makes perfect sense, เอา represents อัว...     

 

2 hours ago, Oxx said:

อัว would (if it were a word) be pronounced /ʔua/ as in วัว /wua/ meaning "cow".  Nothing like the /aw/ of เอา.

I think his point was that it's strange that อัว is pronounced that way when, by the logic that gives you /aw/ and อาว, it ought to have the sound written เอา.

 

....It is strange that when mixing the vowels อี. อื  and อู with า,  อัว was chosen and not อูว .

Did you mean อูา? I guess you'd then have to change เอือ and เอีย. I think I'd settle for เอูอ, which would free อัว up to be used instead of เอา. Course, it's a lot more consistent than English spelling even as it is...

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I don’t see a need to alter ี +า  ื+า  They are represented oddly เอีย เอือ and อู+า even more so. We are taught to read อั+ว as อูวะ . snd ไ as  อั+ย  so how could อั+ว be anything but what we have learnt is represented as เอา ?   
So it is quite logical that when presented with the Sandskrit word ชะวะนะ and desiring to make it one syllable อัว เชา was chosen and วน์ retained to show etymology.  

I take your point Oxx but you see it differently. The nine pure vowels are followed by three mixed vowels where the second, third and fourth vowels are mixed with the first vowel. So อัว is the fourth vowel อู mixed with อา , It is represented by เอ+อ+อา  which is impossible to read!    

 

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13 hours ago, JHicks said:

 

I think his point was that it's strange that อัว is pronounced that way when, by the logic that gives you /aw/ and อาว, it ought to have the sound written เอา.

 

Did you mean อูา? I guess you'd then have to change เอือ and เอีย. I think I'd settle for เอูอ, which would free อัว up to be used instead of เอา. Course, it's a lot more consistent than English spelling even as it is...

JHicks: I see that you see my approach but in เอูอ you are reading a symbol used to write vowels with a sound. เ Is not สระ อา. 
 
I apologize if I appear to be teaching granny to suck eggs, I am shamelessly using you and Oxx because I hope that there are interested learners here and don't want them to experience the problems I had in making sense of the writing system.  

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