PEA debacle - own transformer - domestic or industrial rate?

[Susco]

Not sure where to post this so try here.

 

I built my house along a public paved road in 2012. There is no electricity utility network near my house, as it stops about 200 meter away.

 

Since there is High Voltage, I installed a 30 Kva single phase transformer, and have a single watt-hour 45/100 meter.

 

On my monthly bills there has always been a service charge of 312.24 Baht.

 

In May I went to PEA to get refund for my meter deposit, and was told that is not available for businesses, to which I replied that I don't have a business.

 

They looked up in their computer, and I think ( not sure ) that it showed a 3 Phase 50 Kva transformer and TOU meter, which I disputed, and they told mee they would do a new survey.

 

On June 8 a guy from PEA visited, had a look and told me he saw the mistake.

 

Next bill the service charge was reduced to 38.22 Baht, as it should be for a residential with single watt-hour meter

 

So now of course I went back to PEA to claim a refund for the 8 years of overcharged service fee, which was because they apparently had a wrong original survey.

 

That is when the discussion started, that because I have a transformer I'm automatically classified as a business, which I dispute because nothing of that is written in their own terms and conditions. Also, why was the guy who did the new survey not aware of this, and changed my status to residential.

 

The discussion went as high as the PEA manager, who instructed his peasants to change my status back to business.

 

I leave the PEA electricity tariffs below, so maybe someone with more knowledge can tell me which is the correct status for my connection, going by the details I have given and what is stated in the tariffs.

 

[Susco]

Nobody any idea?

[Crossy]

To be honest I have no clue what rate you should be on. Logic says domestic but you know where we are ...

 

I know a couple of people with their own transformers, I'll check with them what kind of tariff they're on.

 

[Susco]

20 minutes ago, Crossy said:

To be honest I have no clue what rate you should be on. Logic says domestic but you know where we are ...

 

I know a couple of people with their own transformers, I'll check with them what kind of tariff they're on.

 

That is also the way I read it.

 

I have not spoken with the guy who did the survey on June 8, because he spoke only few words English and my Thai is about same level, but he said " I see" and I would think that he didn't switch me to tariff 1.1.2 for my blue eyes.

 

Even if I had a TOU meter, I would after 12 months be considered for tariff 1.1

Edited August 8, 2020 by Susco

[Crossy]

I've modified the topic title for clarity, let's try this in Electrical, I'm sure several members have their own transformers.

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, Susco said:

Nobody any idea?

Go higher up to the area office. You will need a good high status Thai person to assist you.

[Susco]

1 minute ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Go higher up to the area office. You will need a good high status Thai person to assist you.

 

The question is not what I can enforce by talking to the right person, but what my status should be.

 

If it is determined that my set up qualifies for the rate as defined in 1.1.2 , then I will talk with a lawyer, but I'm not gonna spend money on a lawyer without knowing what rate I should get.

[sometimewoodworker]

7 minutes ago, Susco said:

 

The question is not what I can enforce by talking to the right person, but what my status should be.

 

If it is determined that my set up qualifies for the rate as defined in 1.1.2 , then I will talk with a lawyer, but I'm not gonna spend money on a lawyer without knowing what rate I should get.

I don’t suggest a lawyer. I suggest a reasonable status Thai. The PEA can/will brush off a lower status Thai while they will not do the same for someone of equal or higher status to themselves.

 

if you start getting a lawyer involved then you will be spending more than you can possibly reclaim.

[Susco]

4 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I don’t suggest a lawyer. I suggest a reasonable status Thai. The PEA can/will brush off a lower status Thai while they will not do the same for someone of equal or higher status to themselves.

 

if you start getting a lawyer involved then you will be spending more than you can possibly reclaim.

Why don't you simply answer the question as stated in the topic title, which is, which service rate should be applied to my setup?

 

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Susco

[sometimewoodworker]

4 minutes ago, Susco said:

Why don't you simply answer the question as stated in the topic title, which is, which service rate should be applied to my setup?

 

 

TIT! there is no single answer. And if there is it will not be universally applied because TIT.

[Dumbastheycome]

Why so persistent over what is less important about a mistaken overcharge  compared  to the  availability of of an electrical supply  at all?

 

[Dumbastheycome]

47 minutes ago, Susco said:

Why don't you simply answer the question as stated in the topic title, which is, which service rate should be applied to my setup?

 

 

You put that question  to a  forum who are unable to answer !

Put  your question to whichever  Electrical Authority ultimately must give  you an answer based on recognized and acknowledged information relevant  to  your situation.

[Metropolitian]

Three questions, to determine what your situation is and in which 'schema' you are put.

 

You said the transformer is yours.

Where is the meter located? Between the transformer and your home or between the transformer and the high voltage line?

 

Is on your bill 2% added with the total kWh usage?

 

Can you take a picture of your bill ? (So we can check the 'code')

You can hide your address as we don't need that(It's put twice on the bill..)

[Susco]

21 minutes ago, Metropolitian said:

Three questions, to determine what your situation is and in which 'schema' you are put.

 

You said the transformer is yours.

Where is the meter located? Between the transformer and your home or between the transformer and the high voltage line?

 

Is on your bill 2% added with the total kWh usage?

 

Can you take a picture of your bill ? (So we can check the 'code')

You can hide your address as we don't need that(It's put twice on the bill..)

 The meter is located after the transformer

 

There is no 2% added.

 

The code has always been 2114, after the new survey it was changed 1125, and it will have to see what the code in the next bill will be.

 

I believe from looking at the list of rate categories that 1124 should be the correct code for my setup, and if I understand the codes correctly, that would still mean residential with 38.22 service charge.

 

Is that correct?

 

Edit: PEA code mentioned top left on the bill is H06101, and hasn't changed after the new survey

Edited August 9, 2020 by Susco

[Metropolitian]

3 hours ago, Susco said:

 The meter is located after the transformer

There is no 2% added.

Then the transformer is not yours (anymore).

PEA can claim the ownership once it is installed on their pole outside your land.

 

There are equal stories about people buying poles and lost ownership because it was not on their land.

 

PEA, and other resident, can use the transformer.

 

Or is the transformer/pole on your land?

Then PEA can not claim ownership but legally can rise the usage with 2% due to the losses in the transformer and it is not measured as the meter is after the transformer.

 

 

3 hours ago, Susco said:

The code has always been 2114, after the new survey it was changed 1125, and it will have to see what the code in the next bill will be.

If the code is 2114 then the information you should not get from the picture you posted above which is for group 1 , but the contents are almost the same.

 

This is the one for group 2 ( Where code 2114 sits)

 

 

If the upcoming bill shows 1125 as code then according this list it is the normal rate, and if you do have a TOU meter then that code is not the right one for you. It should be 121x or 122x (depending on who actually owns the transformer)

 

Did you get the electricity registered on your name (as individual) / Thai person (individual) or your name (as business with residential , which was a method to put it in foreigner name in that 'shareholder system'. )

The latter mostly put you in group 2.

 

 

3 hours ago, Susco said:

 

I believe from looking at the list of rate categories that 1124 should be the correct code for my setup, and if I understand the codes correctly, that would still mean residential with 38.22 service charge.

 

Is that correct?

On normal tariff, not getting HV from the PEA and transformer is theirs and not having a TOU meter, then yes.

 

[Susco]

4 minutes ago, Metropolitian said:

Then the transformer is not yours (anymore).

PEA can claim the ownership once it is installed on their pole outside your land.

Ownership of the transformer is not the subject of the topic, neither do I think it determines the price category.

Also not sure why you asked if the meter is placed between transformer and HV lines, as that would mean I get few thousands of voltage. Never seen a meter placed there

 

Anyway, the transformer pole is on my land, and the meter is on that pole, and not owned by PEA. 

 

10 minutes ago, Metropolitian said:

If the code is 2114 then the information you should not get from the picture you posted above which is for group 1 , but the contents are almost the same.

2114 is applicable to business, which I am not.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Metropolitian said:

If the upcoming bill shows 1125 as code then according this list it is the normal rate, and if you do have a TOU meter then that code is not the right one for you. It should be 121x or 122x (depending on who actually owns the transformer)

I said already in the OP that I DON'T have a TOU meter, and 1125 was the code since the new survey, but PEA manager has instructed to change it for the next bill. I don't know yet what the code will be, but see more at the bottom of this post.

 

43 minutes ago, Metropolitian said:

Did you get the electricity registered on your name (as individual) / Thai person (individual) or your name (as business with residential , which was a method to put it in foreigner name in that 'shareholder system'. )

The meter and the transformer are in the name of the landowner, which obviously is a Thai, and is a private person.

 

51 minutes ago, Metropolitian said:

Quote

I believe from looking at the list of rate categories that 1124 should be the correct code for my setup, and if I understand the codes correctly, that would still mean residential with 38.22 service charge.

 

Is that correct?

On normal tariff, not getting HV from the PEA and transformer is theirs and not having a TOU meter, then yes.

 

I got this document from the PEA manager desk, on which he made remarks, and I think they will switch me now to code 1124, which I believe is for meter more than 5A on a 22>33 Kv transformer, and should put me in the 38.22 Baht residential rate.

 

I can't read Thai, so maybe someone can translate

 

[Metropolitian]

7 hours ago, Susco said:

Ownership of the transformer is not the subject of the topic, neither do I think it determines the price category.

Also not sure why you asked if the meter is placed between transformer and HV lines, as that would mean I get few thousands of voltage. Never seen a meter placed there

This is why I asked:

 

HV meters do exist, they are sensor based meters. You would never see them in residential environments.

 

(  Maybe in @Crossy's lab ???? )

 

7 hours ago, Susco said:

 

Anyway, the transformer pole is on my land, and the meter is on that pole, and not owned by PEA. 

 

2114 is applicable to business, which I am not.

 

 

 

I said already in the OP tht I DON'T have a TOU meter, and 1125 was the code since the new survey, but PEA manager has instructed to change it for the next bill. I don't know yet what the code will be, but see more at the bottom of this post.

 

The meter and the transformer are in the name of the landowner, which obviously is a Thai, and is a private person.

 

In the OP there is nothing that say that you have a TOU meter neither you did not have. 

And to quote; ''They looked up in their computer, and I think ( not sure ) that it showed a 3 Phase 50 Kva transformer and TOU meter, which I disputed, and they told mee they would do a new survey.''

Their system said you have, and you disputed.. which I read as you deny that you have a 3 phase connection because you made clear that you (quote) ''have a single watt-hour 45/100 meter.''

 

But in post #4 you said ''Even if I had a TOU meter, I would after 12 months be considered for tariff 1.1 '' so that means you don't have a TOU meter.

 

That's clear. ????

 

Means that you was in 2114 which is clearly -wrong-. Their (PEA) wrong.

 

Try to calculate your 'loss' : 

 

1124 =  Service fee 38.22
First 150 kWh. ( 0 – 150 th) 3.2484   
Next 250 kWh. ( 151 st – 400 th) 4.2218
Over 400 kWh. ( 401 st and over) 4.4217

 

150kWh fully utilized = 487.26

151-400 fully utilized = 1055.45

The first 400 would cost 1542.71 and 4.4217 extra for every additional units.

 

2114 =  1 Unit 3.9086  Service fee 312.24

 

Take for example 400 units, that would cost

For 1124 : 1542.71 + 38.22 = 1580.93

For 2114 : 1563.44 + 312.24 = 1875.68

Residential schedule is cheaper

 

But if you use lets say 1200 units, that would cost

For 1124: 5080.07 + 38.22 = 5118.29

For 2114: 4690.32 + 312.24 = 5002.56

Business schedule is cheaper

 

If you use a lot of units, as you can see in the calculations,  leave it as it is.

If you use never more then 1000 units, change to residential schedule.

 

7 hours ago, Susco said:

I can't read Thai, so maybe someone can translate

 

Sure thing.

1124 - บ้านอยู่อาศัย เกิน 5 A.  - Residential home, exceeding 5 A. (  15(45) and higher  )

2114 - กิจการขนาด. เล็ก - Small business

 

 

[Metropolitian]

2 minutes ago, Metropolitian said:

in post #4 you said ''Even if I had a TOU meter, I would after 12 months be considered for tariff 1.1 ''

 

When customer has requested for a TOU meter, the consumer is obligated to keep the TOU meter and the pricing that comes with it ( cheaper on night and higher during the day ) for at least one year.

 

After one year the consumer can change the pricing and choose to be billed with fixed price, they can't change that in the first year.

The consumer need take the steps, if they want to quit the TOU system.

[Susco]

23 minutes ago, Metropolitian said:

In the OP there is nothing that say that you have a TOU meter neither you did not have.

From the OP

 

Since there is High Voltage, I installed a 30 Kva single phase transformer, and have a single watt-hour 45/100 meter.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't says I don't have a TOU meter, because a TOU meter has 2 scales?

 

23 minutes ago, Metropolitian said:

Sure thing.

1124 - บ้านอยู่อาศัย เกิน 5 A.  - Residential home, exceeding 5 A. (  15(45) and higher  )

2114 - กิจการขนาด. เล็ก - Small business

 

So do I now understand correctly that you agree that my code should be 1124, and that PEA should refund me for the 8 years overcharge of the connection fee?

 

My usage is usually between 700 and 800 kWh

 

Not sure why you think business schedule is cheaper, as to me they are exactly same

 

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by Susco

[Metropolitian]

13 minutes ago, Susco said:

From the OP

 

Since there is High Voltage, I installed a 30 Kva single phase transformer, and have a single watt-hour 45/100 meter.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't says I don't have a TOU meter, because a TOU meter has 2 scales?

 

I have a TOU meter, had the old analog one (with spinning wheel) and that one has only 1 scale. It saved the counter twice a day on a specific time in a electronic device and which the meterer downloaded every month. 

The meter got replaced for a smart meter, one with a digital display. This shows me six scales (day total night total return total and everything together, and a few more information like date and time.  )

So yep, with that we effectively got '''2 scales'''

 

13 minutes ago, Susco said:

So do I now understand correctly that you agree that my code should be 1124?

 

My usage is usually between 700 and 800 kWh.

 

Yes.

 

But looking at the PEA tariffs page, and the fact that you have your own transformer, hence using higher voltage then 22 kV and there is no entry for that in Schedule 1 except for those with a TOU-meter.

 

This make me think that 2114 is correct for your situation.

 

Did you not have your own transformer, thus 'At voltage level lower than 22kV' then 1124 is right.

[Susco]

3 minutes ago, Metropolitian said:

But looking at the PEA tariffs page, and the fact that you have your own transformer, hence using higher voltage then 22 kV and there is no entry for that in Schedule 1 except for those with a TOU-meter.

 

This make me think that 2114 is correct for your situation.

 

Did you not have your own transformer, thus 'At voltage level lower than 22kV' then 1124 is right.

The tariff scale says 1124 is for meter higher than 5A on a 22 > 33 Kv transformer

 

 

But I agree, business rate is only 100 Baht per month extra for a 800 kWh usage.

 

Will have to check carefully how much they charged on previous bills

[Metropolitian]

10 minutes ago, Susco said:

The tariff scale says 1124 is for meter higher than 5A on a 22 > 33 Kv transformer

 

 

 

The list indeed shows that, you should be in 1124 according that list.

 

The amount of household consumers with their own transformer is perhaps a few so they didn't put that information on the tariffs list to keep it readable for others.

 

And to add; In schedule 1 at 'Normal Rate'  there is nothing said that it is just only for voltage level lower than 22kV, so it would apply to all voltages up to 33kV.

 

We only can wait for confirmation from other members who do have their own transformer AND registered the connection as residential household.

 

Hope for your case that you should be in 1124 if that still matters much now.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Metropolitian
content

[Susco]

14 minutes ago, Susco said:

Will have to check carefully how much they charged on previous bills

They did indeed charge me flat rate of 3.9086 Baht / kWh, so on average my bill has been about 100 Baht more than if they charged at the residential rate, and not 274 Baht as I earlier assumed.

 

Yet 100 x 12 x 8 years is still 9600 Baht which I think they should refund me.

[Metropolitian]

For the people who want to see where the break-even point is between Schedule 1 and 2 (Residential and Small Bussines)

It's around the 850-900 units.

 

The horizontal axis is not linear

 

Chart is drawn with these data:

[Metropolitian]

A little bit expanded for other members, both residential and small businesses and both with and without TOU.

 

  

X axis non linear, the bump around the 400 is due to an different unit tariff from 151-400 units (250units long).

The unit prices before 150 is the lowest and after 400 consistent.

 

The dark blue and orange line belongs together and so are the purple and light blue, they are respectively on-peak and off-peak lines.

TOU is only useful when using energy from the net on nights (22.00-09.00) and weekends only.

 

[crazykopite]

I have the same as you along with 6 concrete poles I paid for, and yes I pay a service charge every month for the 30 KVA single phase which is similar to what you pay .within a week all my Thai neighbours were having electric and internet cables onto the poles that cost me 60,000 baht for the 6 and there was very little I could do about it and let’s face it who wants to upset there Thai neighbours life would be most uncomfortable . if you had 3 phase your service charge would be around 800 baht per month and if anything goes wrong then they regard it as privately owned so you have to pay the PEA a repair charge which happened to me a month ago when a valve went  by the way I am not married to a Thai so my electricity is in my company name I have two properties with two blue books on the plot I choose not to rent either out I built it that way should anyone ever investigate the company I could then rent one out and run it as a legit business . What I can say is my electricity charges are far less than what I used to pay in the U.K. 14 years ago as every item in the properties  including the swimming pool are low voltage / inverter 

Edited August 10, 2020 by crazykopite

[sometimewoodworker]

37 minutes ago, crazykopite said:

within a week all my Thai neighbours were having electric and internet cables onto the poles that cost me 60,000 baht for the 6 and there was very little I could do about it

You pay for the installation of the poles which, unless they are on private land belong to the PEA. It is the same for the transformer. Unless the transformer is on your land although you paid for it, it belongs to the PEA, but if not on private land the PEA is responsible for repairs and maintenance. If on private land (yours) it, it’s maintenance and any connections are up to you.

[Stevemercer]

We built our house 6 years ago and have lived here ever since. I've always thought our electricity charge to be high.  A few months ago my wife inquired at the local PEA office why we didn't any Covid discounts, or meter refunds.

 

She was told it was because we were on a construction meter and that no discounts applied to this tariff. The construction tariff was 8 Baht per unit versus the domestic tariff of 4 Baht. The lady kindly calculated that we had overpaid some 87,000 Baht since we had been living in the house for the last 5 years.

 

It took about 4 weeks to get the tariff changed. First we had to pay 1000 Baht for a 'new meter' despite the meter being the same as everyone else's. We then paid 500 Baht for a PEA worker to certify that the house was being lived in (we couldn't locate the builder to do this). Then nothing happened for a few weeks. Apparently they were waiting for the end of the monthly billing cycle before applying the new tariff. The subsequent monthly bill applied the correct tariff and our bill was half the previous.

 

Two weeks ago a tree on a vacant lot fell on the power line in our soi and brought down the power pole at the end of the soi to which 5 households are connected (including ours). We had originally paid for the pole when we built our house, but understood it belonged to PEA because it was on common land. PEA refused to fix it, but offered to send a team of workers to reinstall the pole if we paid 4000 Baht.

 

My wife checked with 3 of her friends who had built houses within the last 12 months and all were still on the construction tariff.

 

No wonder the director of our local PEA lives in the biggest house in town and drives a Mercedes. 

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

35 minutes ago, Stevemercer said:

No wonder the director of our local PEA lives in the biggest house in town and drives a Mercedes. 

Is it his fault that you did not request a change once you actually had a house that was eligible? 
 

To me that sounds like an “I messed up but it cannot be my fault” for you and the others who did not change when the could. 

[Susco]

2 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Unless the transformer is on your land although you paid for it, it belongs to the PEA, but if not on private land the PEA is responsible for repairs and maintenance.

 

Dream on about that. There is an example right above, and another right below your post, which proof PEA will not pay for the maintenance and repairs regardless of you sign everything over to them.

 

I'm aware of several other examples, and that is also the reason why I intentionally placed the transformer on private land.

 

So now PEA can not connect others, which would cause more wear and tear on the transformer, and I know that in any cased all costs will be ffor me anyway