Heeding demands of pro-democracy protesters 'only way out of current political impasse'

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Were you here when the yellow-<deleted>s demonstrated (almost always peacefully) against Thaksin?

They helped to expose many of Thaksin's crimes.

And they had a lot of support from lots of people in Bangkok.

I was here and saw them march through Sukhumvit and the street was lines with people who supported their peaceful protest against Thaksin.

 

Yes, and the people of Pyongyang support Kim Jong Un in North Korea, because he, like Thailand's elites, keeps the capital much richer than the rest of the country.  That doesn't justify this form of government (I assume we are still not allowed to use the d-word).

[daveAustin]

12 hours ago, herwin1234 said:

The current governement did and is doing an excellent job. Anyone living in Isan can see the great economic development of Isan cities the last decade. And now we can see how well Thailand does with the covid crisis. 

 

The current governement stands for unity of all Thai people. The pro democracy movement stands for division, including inflamatory comments about the monarchy, just for the sake of inflaming society and sowing division.

 

These democracy protesters are at best naive fools manipulated by long time profesional agitators who are not looking for democracy but just for plain power grab.

 

I hope the current governement stays strong and deals with these agitators behind these protest who are using young Thai people without life experience just only a naive goodhearted opinion. 

Deary me, you are truly lost my friend. It almost sounds as if you have an agenda, which I could buy. C19 aside, the country is a shambles, the army has done little bar curtail freedom and hem in its minions. The protesters are normal people seeking free society, nothing more. Was Thanathorn all about angst and division? I think not. These are decent folk wanting a better future outside of the scope of dowdy old egoistic automaton dinosaurs.

 

If you're an expat, I hope for your sake your current 'government' does not stay strong lest you be out on your proverbial ear. Be careful what you wish for.

[OneMoreFarang]

11 hours ago, yellowboat said:

They also shutdown and vandalised the only airport at the time for over a week.   When the opposing party protested and acted peacefully, they were driven out be the army by lethal means.  The yellows were favored by the army and were treated well.   It is rather insulting to the forum's intelligence to say the yellows were and are good for Thailand.   They are just more inline with military rule.   They were until cha cha started to ruin Thailand.

The yellow-shirts occupied the airport and the airport was closed. After the yellow-shirts left the airport was opened very soon again (I think a day or two). As far as I remember the yellow-shirts did not vandalize the airport. If you think they did how about some links or pictures.

 

The red-shirts protested in the middle of Bangkok for many weeks. The tomato-police let them do whatever they wanted. The red-shirts had huge barricades and they behaved like they owned the town. Some were armed with war weapons, grenades, etc. Finally, after asking them to leave many times, the army cleaned up the place. Because the red-shirts didn't leave and the police did nothing. And lets not forget that the so called peaceful red mob burned down a big part of Bangkok. Where did you learn about this? From Thaksin or the red-shirts?

 

It is rather insulting to the forum's intelligence to distort history.

 

 

[yellowboat]

4 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

The yellow-shirts occupied the airport and the airport was closed. After the yellow-shirts left the airport was opened very soon again (I think a day or two). As far as I remember the yellow-shirts did not vandalize the airport. If you think they did how about some links or pictures.

 

The red-shirts protested in the middle of Bangkok for many weeks. The tomato-police let them do whatever they wanted. The red-shirts had huge barricades and they behaved like they owned the town. Some were armed with war weapons, grenades, etc. Finally, after asking them to leave many times, the army cleaned up the place. Because the red-shirts didn't leave and the police did nothing. And lets not forget that the so called peaceful red mob burned down a big part of Bangkok. Where did you learn about this? From Thaksin or the red-shirts?

 

It is rather insulting to the forum's intelligence to distort history.

 

 

"Like you" I was there.   I walked through both sides many encampments.   They both had, as you said, roadblocks.  They were quite similar in fact, only the t-shirts were different colors.  The yellows were, and perhaps still are, aligned with military rule, so they are treated better by the army, while they brought the city to its knees. 

 

 They were ordered to pay:  Thirteen yellow-shirt co-leaders will have to pay damages worth 522 million baht in total for the blockades of Suvarnabhumi and Don Mueang..... 

 

Didn't the red shirts resort to violence after being attacked by the government?   Wasn't one of their leaders assassinated while giving a speech?  Don't condone violence, but violent acts beget a violent response.  Thailand's military has failed miserably in ending confrontations peacefully.  If your and the military's hatred is so great for Thaksin where you would ruin the country over it, Thailand's future will be in doubt.    Westerners who favor autocracy always amaze me.   

[OneMoreFarang]

14 minutes ago, yellowboat said:

"Like you" I was there.   I walked through both sides many encampments.   They both had, as you said, roadblocks.  They were quite similar in fact, only the t-shirts were different colors.  The yellows were, and perhaps still are, aligned with military rule, so they are treated better by the army, while they brought the city to its knees. 

 

 They were ordered to pay:  Thirteen yellow-shirt co-leaders will have to pay damages worth 522 million baht in total for the blockades of Suvarnabhumi and Don Mueang..... 

 

Didn't the red shirts resort to violence after being attacked by the government?   Wasn't one of their leaders assassinated while giving a speech?  Don't condone violence, but violent acts beget a violent response.  Thailand's military has failed miserably in ending confrontations peacefully.  If your and the military's hatred is so great for Thaksin where you would ruin the country over it, Thailand's future will be in doubt.    Westerners who favor autocracy always amaze me.   

The yellow shirts were active for years and the red-shirts were active for years.

I don't think it makes much sense here to go through all the details here what they did or didn't do and why they did it.

I followed their activities and the news about them basically every day since forever and I had enough time to make up my mind.

 

Thaksin divided the nation like nobody else in the last two decades. And he did this deliberately. He gave crumbs to the people so that he and his cronies could get the cake and the cream. There is not much doubt about that.

The red-shirts and the MiB used war weapons long before the military arrived to clean up the streets. The police should have done their job and enforce the laws but they obviously didn't do that. Finally, after many weeks of waiting and many requests to the red-shirts to leave the city peacefully the military stepped in. Nobody had to die that day. Armed protesters died because they didn't surrender peacefully. Soldiers died because they did their job. And helpers like a nurse died because they had a good heart and helped people but they did this in the middle of a war-zone.

All this was not necessary. Thaksin could have told them to go home. The busses were ready waiting to bring them home. The rest is history.

 

Unfortunately for Thais and for anybody who lives in Thailand the government options are limited. It seems they are all more or less corrupt. Some maybe more than others but who really knows?

I know that when Thaksin and his little sister were active corruption scandals popped up all the time. He blatantly ignored the law. And he used the aggressive red mob to terrorize the people.

The military removed Thaksin and his little sister. Good riddance!

Is Prayut and his government perfect? Sure not. Is he better than Thaksin. Many people, including me, think so.

 

Lets look when the Thai people will vote for honest and competent politicians. I would love to see that. But for whatever reason most Thais continue to vote for corrupt and incompetent politicians and then they are somehow surprised that they are governed by corrupt and incompetent people.

 

 

[Surelynot]

3 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

But for whatever reason most Thais continue to vote for corrupt and incompetent politicians

When you consider that the US and UK might be considered sophisticated, educated and well-read voters and they still vote the way they do.........it is no great shock that Thais vote as they do, especially if they are given a few thousand Baht.

[Enzian]

56 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

When you consider that the US and UK might be considered sophisticated, educated and well-read voters and they still vote the way they do.........it is no great shock that Thais vote as they do, especially if they are given a few thousand Baht.

Winston Churchill is reputed to have said something to the effect that the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with an average voter.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, Surelynot said:

When you consider that the US and UK might be considered sophisticated, educated and well-read voters and they still vote the way they do.........it is no great shock that Thais vote as they do, especially if they are given a few thousand Baht.

I agree with George Carlin: “Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”

[Grumpy John]

18 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

It hardly matters, democracy is dying all over the world. Big money is pulling the levers wherever you look. Playing both sides, keeping people polarized. But it is a lot of work. Those who have real power, admire Thailand's ability to keep the reigns from the people with the same simple tricks, decade after decade. 

 

Your got that right!   There are to many morons in the world that think that socialism and communism are the way of the future.  Maybe if they bothered to look at the past and saw the Mountain of dead bodies caused by communist China and Russia over several decades they may think 

Differently!

[choff56]

22 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Were you here when the yellow-<deleted>s demonstrated (almost always peacefully) against Thaksin?

They helped to expose many of Thaksin's crimes.

And they had a lot of support from lots of people in Bangkok.

I was here and saw them march through Sukhumvit and the street was lines with people who supported their peaceful protest against Thaksin.

 

This picture is very misleading because it is not from the yellow shirt blow hard whistle protests in Bangkok (2013/2014) . It was taken a few years later at a "Bike for Dad" event held at Mega Bangna. 

[Donutz]

3 hours ago, yellowboat said:

They both had, as you said, roadblocks.  They were quite similar in fact, only the t-shirts were different colors.  The yellows were, and perhaps still are, aligned with military rule, so they are treated better by the army, while they brought the city to its knees. 

Indeed,  both red and yellow protesters brought the city to it's knees, caused lots if damages,  didn't obey orders from the authorities etc. Main difference is that the yellow side was handled with gloves and the reds gloves off. OneMoreFarang is being rather one sided and may wish to read up on some research as to what happend. 

 

Regardless, red vs yellow is a thing from the past. Thaksin, Babysit, Suthep, Prayuth etc all did rather questionable things and people died under their supervision. Somehow accountability seems to be a problem... I wouldn't cheer any if them. They are dinosaurs,  they are the past and whether these people will one day be brought to justice in front of an unbiased and fair court or not,  the way forward is not with these people.  The youth makes it quite clear. If they would rally behind any colour it would perhaps be orange. With rather simple demands: a proper constitution and no person being above the law. Yet the dinosaurs portray the youth as ignorant,  paid marionettes?? 

[unblocktheplanet]

On 8/10/2020 at 3:17 PM, herwin1234 said:

The current governement stands for unity of all Thai people. The pro democracy movement stands for division, including inflamatory comments about the monarchy, just for the sake of inflaming society and sowing division.

 

These democracy protesters are at best naive fools manipulated by long time profesional agitators who are not looking for democracy but just for plain power grab.

 

Pure rubbish! The current govt has its tentacle in everyone's pockets! What is happening with Covid is just good luck.

 

Why is it 'grownups' (like you) always think students are naive and not mature enough to know anything? They're talking about their future. The rest of us are has-beens.

 

The middle class got rid of Suchinda in 1992 & it can trash Prayuth in 2020.

 

Why does it require "agitators" for citizenry to have ideals? Why does self-determination and equality in society depend upon the largesse of the rich? 

 

If you love a military junta in power, gotta use the Myanmar model. Co-opt the opposition, shoot the students (and monks), shutter the universities.

 

This time around, they'll have to shut the high schools, too. Our students are too well-informed and information can no longer be controlled.

 

This is the game-changer, make it or break it:

https://prachatai.com/english/node/8709

 

[herfiehandbag]

On 8/10/2020 at 5:51 PM, Hayduke said:

 

What's your point?

 

He supports the idea of a military dictatorship, he doesn't like democracy because the Thais keep electing a team he doesn't back. that is his point

[herfiehandbag]

On 8/10/2020 at 3:17 PM, herwin1234 said:

There hopes of soldiers crushing their protest in order to be able to play the victim, didnt work. Tired of waiting, theyjust start to burning buildings including Central.

I think you got your timings a little bit mixed up there - setting fire to Central came after the Army moved in on the protestors - with quite a lot of force really!

[herfiehandbag]

6 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

And helpers like a nurse died because they had a good heart and helped people but they did this in the middle of a war-zone.

The nurse was shot by an Army sniper, operating from the adjacent Skytrain elevated railway tracks. She was clearly identified as a medic, helping wounded people. If as you claim, it was a war zone, then that was contrary to the rules which govern armed conflict - in other words a war crime, and the sniper, and those commanding him. should be tried and punished as such. If it wasn't a war zone then it was cold blooded deliberate murder,  and the sniper, and those commanding him. should be tried and punished as such.

 

They won't be. It was probably the most egregious single act of those disturbances, and brings shame on the military, and the person commanding the operation. Who was that now?

[OneMoreFarang]

11 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

The nurse was shot by an Army sniper, operating from the adjacent Skytrain elevated railway tracks. She was clearly identified as a medic, helping wounded people. If as you claim, it was a war zone, then that was contrary to the rules which govern armed conflict - in other words a war crime, and the sniper, and those commanding him. should be tried and punished as such. If it wasn't a war zone then it was cold blooded deliberate murder,  and the sniper, and those commanding him. should be tried and punished as such.

 

They won't be. It was probably the most egregious single act of those disturbances, and brings shame on the military, and the person commanding the operation. Who was that now?

Was she the only innocent person who died?

Obviously that is a sad story and it should not happen. But I think we can agree it happens all over the world. Because in places with lots of weapons and lots of aggressive people things go wrong.

It's more than unlikely that a military sniper killed her deliberately. Why should he do that?

 

Fact is nobody had to die there. Because they could have all gone home. Thaksin wanted them there and Thaksin wanted "his" money back. He used the people and ultimately he is responsible for every single dead person in that conflict.

[impulse]

On 8/9/2020 at 9:19 PM, steven100 said:

Thailand has and always will require an authoritarian to lead and control the unrest and fighting that eventually develops when the reigns are too loose and political parties attempt to do as they please through shootings, lawlessness and anarchy. Thailand has always needed someone who will control the unrest as we have all witnessed before on many occasions. 

Since coming to power Khun Prayut Chan O Cha has pushed GDP higher year on year (pre-covid19) as well as developed infrastructure nationwide. This government has done more for the poor in the past 6 years than the previous two government tried to do in 10 years. 

 

 

How much of that GDP has trickled down to the other 99% of the people?

 

Edit:  That was Thaksin's claim to fame.  He was as corrupt as any of them.  But he had enough control of the trough that some of it was left over to trickle down to the masses and grow the economy for the masses. 

 

BTW, looks like they were having a pretty impressive runup between 2010 and the coup...

Edited August 11, 2020 by impulse

[herfiehandbag]

53 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It's more than unlikely that a military sniper killed her deliberately. Why should he do that?

Snipers kill deliberately. That is what they do. That is the whole point of snipers.

[Donutz]

2 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It's more than unlikely that a military sniper killed her deliberately. Why should he do that?

Yes, taking  position with a team opposite a temple that had been a neutral first aid point and then shooting at it from above must have been an accident or misunderstanding. That nobody was charged despite footage of soldiers taking aim from the BTS tracks is also probably for reasons...

[lemonjelly]

On 8/10/2020 at 9:19 AM, steven100 said:

Thailand has and always will require an authoritarian to lead and control the unrest and fighting that eventually develops when the reigns are too loose and political parties attempt to do as they please through shootings, lawlessness and anarchy. Thailand has always needed someone who will control the unrest as we have all witnessed before on many occasions. 

Since coming to power Khun Prayut Chan O Cha has pushed GDP higher year on year (pre-covid19) as well as developed infrastructure nationwide. This government has done more for the poor in the past 6 years than the previous two government tried to do in 10 years. 

 

You’re talking about the political party that has a minister who was convicted in Australia for heroin smuggling but said it doesn’t matter because it didn’t happen in Thailand, great.

[heybruce]

10 hours ago, Donutz said:

Indeed,  both red and yellow protesters brought the city to it's knees, caused lots if damages,  didn't obey orders from the authorities etc. Main difference is that the yellow side was handled with gloves and the reds gloves off. OneMoreFarang is being rather one sided and may wish to read up on some research as to what happend. 

 

Regardless, red vs yellow is a thing from the past. Thaksin, Babysit, Suthep, Prayuth etc all did rather questionable things and people died under their supervision. Somehow accountability seems to be a problem... I wouldn't cheer any if them. They are dinosaurs,  they are the past and whether these people will one day be brought to justice in front of an unbiased and fair court or not,  the way forward is not with these people.  The youth makes it quite clear. If they would rally behind any colour it would perhaps be orange. With rather simple demands: a proper constitution and no person being above the law. Yet the dinosaurs portray the youth as ignorant,  paid marionettes?? 

Another very significant difference is that the Red shirts were protesting for elections, and the Yellow shirts protesting against them.

[Donutz]

Yellow had fascist elements: calling for the military to get involved into politics, and saying that representative democracy is unsuitable for Thailand. Where as the reds had populist elements (Thaksin was not a democrat at heart, but not all reds supported him).  Hence that those who think Thai people are easily manipulated and in  need of a wise fatherly leader to decide what's best for the people are more inclined to like yellow and those who like the people to have a say are more likely to like red.

 

But since both don't exactly have a spotless and blameless record,  I'm glad that UDD vs PAD is a thing from the past. What matters now is listening to the people who ask for genuine democratic reform that will put all people and institutions under the law.

 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

10 hours ago, Donutz said:

Yes, taking  position with a team opposite a temple that had been a neutral first aid point and then shooting at it from above must have been an accident or misunderstanding. That nobody was charged despite footage of soldiers taking aim from the BTS tracks is also probably for reasons...

And do you think the armed red-shirts and MiB would stay away from that temple to protect innocent people? 555

They invaded a hospital! They used thousands of people as possible cannon-fodder for dear leader.

The soldiers were there because the red mob didn't want to leave the city and because the police didn't do their job.

No innocent person should have died - it was in the hands of Thaksin to prevent that.

[Donutz]

19 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

And do you think the armed red-shirts and MiB would stay away from that temple to protect innocent people? 555

And where is your evidence of any hostilities coming from the temple grounds that might have justified the army firing at the red cross zone in self defence? h that's right, at first the army denied anything had happend. And they haven't really anything to have a court look into it...   

 

Maybe you may wish to read up on what happend:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/05/18/thailand-no-justice-8-years-after-crackdown

 

Quote

They invaded a hospital! They used thousands of people as possible cannon-fodder for dear leader.

The soldiers were there because the red mob didn't want to leave the city and because the police didn't do their job.

No innocent person should have died - it was in the hands of Thaksin to prevent that.

 

Most of that applies just as well or more so to the yellow protests. I personally condemn both of the colour groups having escalated things. The big difference being that as previously stated the authorities were reluctant to take on the pro powers that be (not very democratic, fascist inclined) yellow shirts  and more than keen to take on the (democratic and populist) red's.  

 

I remain that both sides should be dragged into a unbiased court. And that the new pro-democracy protesters don't fall into the red or yellow traps of the past. 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

3 hours ago, Donutz said:

Most of that applies just as well or more so to the yellow protests. I personally condemn both of the colour groups having escalated things. The big difference being that as previously stated the authorities were reluctant to take on the pro powers that be (not very democratic, fascist inclined) yellow shirts  and more than keen to take on the (democratic and populist) red's.  

The tomato police didn't do anything against the red-shirts who occupied the main streets in the middle of the city for weeks. Otherwise the military would not have been there to clean it up.

 

3 hours ago, Donutz said:

I remain that both sides should be dragged into a unbiased court. And that the new pro-democracy protesters don't fall into the red or yellow traps of the past. 

Yes, that sounds like a good idea. And please no bail for 10 years.