Over 70s in Thailand

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, superal said:

Hi Sheryl , Apologies to all for the " too many zeros " . I am sure you know that a standard quote will include items that are not required e.g. maternity and of course when that is removed and existing ailments are included the final premium will be different . I have pasted another quote below from Cigna which you will notice highlights daypatient only but then says total cancer cover , is that possible ? . When it comes to insurance I try to avoid the " too good to be true cheap policies " , always have fully comprehensive on motor policies as an example as insurers will go through every nook and cranny to avoid a payout . To get the level of health cover that I want may be too expensive and so I could alter my living arrangements and 6 months here and same in the UK and a good travel insurance will exceed the benefits of pure health insurance . I have approached aainsure for their quote and am waiting for a reply .

Dear alan  Thank you for your interest in our Cigna Global plans To proceed with your quote or to discuss in more detail, please contact us on +44(0)1475 492119 (outside of US) or 877 539 6295 (inside the US).

Your Core Quotes

Silver Worldwide $552.15 per month The core benefits on the Silver plan provide international inpatient and daypatient cover, including hospital stays and treatment.  Annual benefit limit: $1,000,000  Inpatient, daypatient & accommodation costs - Paid in full for semi-private room  Total cover for cancer  No maternity  No Travel Safety service APPLY & BUY

Gold Worldwide $708.84 per month Comprehensive coverage, with higher overall annual limits and added benefits including inpatient maternity care.  Annual benefit limit: $2,000,000  Inpatient, daypatient & accommodation costs - Paid in full for private room  Total cover for cancer  Routine inpatient maternity cover - 100% up to $7,000  Travel Safety service APPLY & BUY

Platinum Worldwide $932.68 per month Our highest level of coverage offers an unlimited overall annual limit, with most benefits being paid in full.  Annual benefit limit: Unlimited  Inpatient, daypatient & accommodation costs - Paid in full for private room  Total cover for cancer  Routine inpatient maternity cover - 100% up to $14,000  Travel Safety service

 

The Cigna Silver plan, like most international expat "in patient-only" policies, covers outpatient cancer treatment in full (chemo, radiation etc ) . It is in their interest to do so as having you admitted for such treatment would cost them much more.

 

there are deductible options, usually worth taking a small one and diminishing returns in terms of premium reductions thereafter.

 

Many TV members have had Cigna Silver (including me); one member had cancer treatment twice (different cancers) , each time  in excess of 3 million baht (inc. surgery),  fully paid by Cigna.

 

The one thing to be aware of with Cigna is that their customer service is very poor and inefficient. I think they stint on admin costs to keep premiums low, but the result can be frustrating. It is not anything nefarious or intentional, just a lot of poorly trained staff some of them with little English speaking capacity and general confusion.  I switched to April International for this reason, but if you are over 65 this is not an option.

 

With an insurer it is definitely best to go through a broker,. Not only will they help you in the selection process by providing a list of options and comparison charts, but they will help afterwards if there are any problems with claims. I use AA brokers and  have been very happy with them.  www.aainsure.net

 

 

[Tuvoc]

37 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I use AA brokers and  have been very happy with them.  www.aainsure.net

 

I tried them and they were worse than useless. I've since been corresponding with Pacific Prime, another broker, and they have been very good.

https://www.pacificprime.com/

 

Also been talking directly with Cigna.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Tuvoc

[Sheryl]

3 hours ago, Tuvoc said:

 

I tried them and they were worse than useless. I've since been corresponding with Pacific Prime, another broker, and they have been very good.

https://www.pacificprime.com/

 

Also been talking directly with Cigna.

 

given the weakness of Cigna's customer service (a far cry from their sales department people) I strongly recommend you go through a broker so that you have the option of calling on them if there are delays or problems later..

[sanuk711]

On 8/13/2020 at 11:17 AM, trucking said:

You pay your bill with the card and then you can pay off the credit card installments at your leisure after you recover. 

At  18--23%

[trucking]

14 hours ago, sanuk711 said:

At  18--23%

 

Yes, that's true. The longer you take to pay it off the higher the rate climbs. But if you are over 70 with any pre existing conditions then assuming you can get cover it won't be cheap.

 

For those that simply can't afford high premiums year in year out the credit card is a lot better than nothing since at least you have the means to pay for many things rather than just dying because no insurance.

 

My friends mother in the UK paid for the best insurance she could get for over 20 years. When finally she needed to make a claim no problem....she was covered. But afterwards they refused to cover her as being too risky ( she was 76 ) Pretty shabby treatment in my opinion.

[sanuk711]

3 minutes ago, trucking said:

she was covered. But afterwards they refused to cover her as being too risky ( she was 76 ) Pretty shabby treatment in my opinion.

Yes it is......don't worry I don't think anyone will speak up in the defense of the insurance thieves   Companies.

[HampiK]

4 hours ago, Tuvoc said:

 

I tried them and they were worse than useless. I've since been corresponding with Pacific Prime, another broker, and they have been very good.

https://www.pacificprime.com/

 

Also been talking directly with Cigna.

I also use PacificPrime as my Broker.. Now Cigna Silver before "Cigna Close care".

Till now can't complain.

[Tuvoc]

18 minutes ago, HampiK said:

I also use PacificPrime as my Broker.. Now Cigna Silver before "Cigna Close care".

Till now can't complain.

 

Good to know. With Cigna there are quite a few policies and options, I need to work my way through them, with Pacific Prime's advice.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Tuvoc

[Peter Denis]

1 hour ago, sanuk711 said:

Yes it is......don't worry I don't think anyone will speak up in the defense of the insurance thieves   Companies.

Not all insurance-companies are crooks...

> See my post #148

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1177525-over-70s-in-thailand/?do=findComment&comment=15718814

 

[bwpage3]

19 hours ago, rumak said:

A farang neighbor had a 4 way bypass done at a major private hospital in Chiangmai.  Total cost 400k

baht.    I guess i would need something like that, plus maybe a liver transplant, maybe hip replacement,

hmmmmm   let's see     does that get me to "millions "         oh , heck    just kill me

 

(can't believe I answered this troll )    ????????????

Troll?

 

Because you don't want to admit as you get older, ALL of those things could happen to you and you don't have the money to cover it?

 

You are the troll thinking saving money every month is going to replace insurance.

 

I think if you have millions as you claim, you would have insurance.

 

How many 400K bills can you handle a year on your pension?

[bwpage3]

21 hours ago, Raphael Hythlodaeus said:

I don't know how old you are, but at my age (74) the health insurance premiums are very expensive, even if you could find a company that would accept the risk. The insurance companies are there to make a profit for their shareholders, not for you.

I managed to obtain a 30 baht health card from a government hospital, but even without that the cost at Thai government hospitals is a fraction of that from private hospitals. A friend recently had an operation and 5-day stay at a Thai gov hospital and the total cost was less than 14K baht. Sure, the "service" left something to be desired, with long waiting times and uncaring nurses.

So I think it is you who is not being realistic. 

By the way, my health savings account would easily cover a 1-million baht medical bill. But that's because I considered this problem IN ADVANCE many years ago and took appropriate action.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

 

The question is how many major medical bills can you handle each year?

 

One bill could wipe out all your years of saving.

 

I know insurance is expensive.

 

It is something most never think about until it is too late.

 

I don't plan to bankrupt my family due to medical bills.

 

Decision to move home was easy for me in that regard.

[jmccarty]

This is an informative thread despite some taking offence of others comments and getting off topic.  Is the OP better informed about choice to make?  Like so many insurance issues brought up, there is no easy answer once you get beyond insurers age limits and decide to live in Thailand vs travel here with travel insurance.  I did find the European Coop angle of interest and I am reviewing some of those now.  To just put a reasonable lump sum aside for when needed is also worth considering.  How much is enough? I know 2 each rounds of radiation and chemo at Mt. Elizabeth Hospital in Singapore is about S$100k.  Living there for that time has a high cost of course.  Thailand should not cost much more if more for the treatment.  One poster mentioned a friend that was here for 20 years (with cancer?).  The bespoke approach another poster mentioned is also of interest.  If one had a lot of exclusions because of not having a running continuous policy that has no limits on pre-existing conditions, could you get a lower cost but reliable policy that covered the big C if that is not a condition you have had?  Perhaps a broker could help with this?  I will continue to watch this thread and do some more research.

[superal]

15 hours ago, Sheryl said:

 

given the weakness of Cigna's customer service (a far cry from their sales department people) I strongly recommend you go through a broker so that you have the option of calling on them if there are delays or problems later..

Hi Sheryl , I have found an interesting item printed 2 years ago in the Phuket News . Am I permitted to copy and paste here ?

[Sheryl]

14 hours ago, jmccarty said:

This is an informative thread despite some taking offence of others comments and getting off topic.  Is the OP better informed about choice to make?  Like so many insurance issues brought up, there is no easy answer once you get beyond insurers age limits and decide to live in Thailand vs travel here with travel insurance.  I did find the European Coop angle of interest and I am reviewing some of those now.  To just put a reasonable lump sum aside for when needed is also worth considering.  How much is enough?

 

You need a minimum of 1million baht  if you will use only government hospitals, 3-4 million if you want  the option of using a private hospital. These are roughly the maximum amounts that a single hospitalization can cost. Then of course you need a way to replenish this when gone or else a clear plan to relocate at that point.

 

There are insurers who will issue new policies up to age 99/100 and international policies almost always guarantee lifetime renewal. So age per se does not preclude being insured. The real barrier is that by the one is older, many people have developed pre-existing conditions that make it difficult or impossible to get a policy.

[singasong]

On 8/14/2020 at 11:36 AM, possum1931 said:

The big thing about health insurance for expats is that the insurance companies could and do take your money for years, and in a lot of cases people having no or very little claims, then they will tell you when you reach a certain age that you are too old and we won't insure you any more.

You are then left with no insurance at all, I blame the soldiers government for this for allowing this to happen, as the OP says, they should have an insurance for us, probably through a government hospital scheme for a fair price and none of this stopping insurance because we are "too old".

To be fair it works both ways, you could have a large claim of say 5m baht after 3 yrs and paying approx 100,000 baht in premiums and the following year cancel your policy, the Insurance company are out of pocket to the tune of 4.9m baht, can they then say no no no you have to keep paying your policy until we get our 4.9m baht back ?

[simon43]

 ...then they will tell you when you reach a certain age that you are too old and we won't insure you any more.

 

See post 164 from Sheryl (above).  If you choose your insurer wisely, then you will not find yourself in this kind of situation. As Sheryl states, International policies almost always provide automatic renewal, with no premium increase for your claim history, (there are age-band increases of course).  

 

As long as you pay the premium, the insurer cannot 'kick you out'.

 

 

[rumak]

On 8/16/2020 at 8:59 AM, sandyf said:

It is the height of arrogance to think you know someone's affairs better than they do.

You are quite free to believe what you want, doesn't make it fact, and inappropriate to try and advise on that basis.

well put.       I might just copy that response for use when needed  ????

[rumak]

On 8/16/2020 at 3:33 PM, Sheryl said:

On 8/16/2020 at 11:59 AM, Tuvoc said:

 

I tried them and they were worse than useless. I've since been corresponding with Pacific Prime, another broker, and they have been very good.

https://www.pacificprime.com/

 

Also been talking directly with Cigna.

 

given the weakness of Cigna's customer service (a far cry from their sales department people) I strongly recommend you go through a broker so that you have the option of calling on them if there are delays or problems later..

I still find it funny ( or sad might be better)   that with many so adamant that anyone who "self insures"

is an idiot....................... I just read almost every other post stating bad experiences with insurance companies.   Then of course the sage advice to "choose carefully"   .    hahahah

seems like that is not as easy as it sounds.

Meanwhile...... I have NEVER had a problem with my insurer

[Old Croc]

18 hours ago, singasong said:

To be fair it works both ways, you could have a large claim of say 5m baht after 3 yrs and paying approx 100,000 baht in premiums and the following year cancel your policy, the Insurance company are out of pocket to the tune of 4.9m baht, can they then say no no no you have to keep paying your policy until we get our 4.9m baht back ?

Don't feel sorry for these companies because they lose out with some.

Insurance companies cant possibly break even or profit from every client.  There will always be people who cost the company big money. (Think of the new car buyer who writes off a new car immediately after purchase)

They allow for this in their business plan (fee structure) by charging inflated premiums for all customers, even those who never make a claim. The excess collected pays for shareholder profits, administration, wages, offices, cars, bonus's, etc.  

This is the reason some of us with means sometimes prefer to gamble by self insuring. Not everybody want's to contribute to an insurance company's profit margin. Of course, if you lose the gamble you will lament the fact.

[Sheryl]

29 minutes ago, rumak said:

I still find it funny ( or sad might be better)   that with many so adamant that anyone who "self insures"

is an idiot.......................

 

Nobody has ever said that people who genuinely self insure are unwise, let alone "idiots".

 

The problem is that people seem to think having no plan and no money is "self insuring". It is not, and it is indeed foolish.

 

I have encountered very, very few people on this forum who are genuinely self insured. Could count them on the fingers of one hand. And they were all people who had no other choice as pre-exisitng conditions made them uninsurable.

 

People who are insurerable and have the funds to self-insure almost always opt to get insurance instead, in order to protect their assets.

[BritManToo]

Just now, Sheryl said:

The problem is that people seem to think having no plan and no money is "self insuring". It is not, and it is indeed foolish.

My self-insurance plan is to have enough money to hire a room with a balcony on the top floor.

[Peter Denis]

4 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

My self-insurance plan is to have enough money to hire a room with a balcony on the top floor.

Aha, the Herman Brood 'last flight with crash landing' option (at the Amsterdam Krasnapolsky Hotel).

No, thank you...

[rumak]

Just now, Sheryl said:

 

Nobody has ever said that people who genuinely self insure are unwise, let alone "idiots".

 

The problem is that people seem to think having no plan and no money is "self insuring". It is not, and it is indeed foolish.

 

I have encountered very, very few people on this forum who are genuinely self insured. Could count them on the fingers of one hand. And they were all people who had no other choice as pre-exisitng conditions made them uninsurable.

 

People who are insurerable and have the funds to self-insure almost always opt to get insurance instead, in order to protect their assets.

Well. if you will allow me an analogy :  I know very few people who in this day and age would want a

manual gear car that could afford an automatic.  Especially living in a country with few mountains to

climb and descend.   Never the less,  some people choose the manual.  I didn't know anyone who recently wanted one,  ah,  but you did.

So now you know that I could afford insurance , but for reasons that would turn into a rant I just do

not find it is what I want .   I made this decision thirty years ago and have saved a great deal of money

by not subscribing to the "norm".    

At my age now I would be facing yet ANOTHER increase.   I have taken good care of myself .... and have been rewarded with very few medical issues.  And,  I DO have the savings (thanks to my choices)

to cover any situation.   I won't argue that this is the way for everyone....just as a manual shift car is

not for most people.     But for me it works just fine

[rumak]

Just now, rumak said:

 

The problem is that people seem to think having no plan and no money is "self insuring". It is not, and it is indeed foolish.

Well, if they have no money then that may be the main reason many do not have insurance    No ?

 

[rumak]

40 minutes ago, Old Croc said:

This is the reason some of us with means sometimes prefer to gamble by self insuring. Not everybody want's to contribute to an insurance company's profit margin. Of course, if you lose the gamble you will lament the fact.

well, if you have the means then the "gamble"  is not so big.   all of life is risk/reward .  

not just  reward/reward .   Heck, the biggest gamble in life is getting married    hahaha

Only about 50%  win that one .   And many many more are unhappy but choose to stay with

their insurer  partner as they feel trapped.

Ahhhh,  another cool and rainy day here in CM .    Nice to feel freeeeeee

[Sheryl]

11 minutes ago, rumak said:

Well, if they have no money then that may be the main reason many do not have insurance    No ?

 

 

Certainly that is often the reason. That or having  money but not in abundance and not wanting to cut back on other things to pay for insurance.

 

But it does not make them "self insured",  it makes them "uninsured".

[rumak]

Just now, Sheryl said:

 

Certainly that is often the reason. That or having  money but not in abundance and not wanting to cut back on other things to pay for insurance.

 

But it does not make them "self insured",  it makes them "uninsured".

i answered that yesterday.    It makes me  self reliant !    

 

  as for those who,  for whatever reason, do not want to pay (through the nose) for insurance ....

 I do believe that it is still their right to choose .   In the world where our "choices' are more and 

more taken away ,   please have some sympathy for us poor "uninsured"

 

 

 

[Sheryl]

5 minutes ago, rumak said:

i  please have some sympathy for us poor "uninsured"

 

 

 

Well which is it? Are you uninsured or self-insured? They are entirely different things..that was my point.

 

Unfortunately the uninsured make problems for the rest of us. As trend towards Immigration insurance requirements demonstrate.

 

Several times each year I am drawn into helping/facilitating situations whee someone's lack of insurance causes huge problems for them, the hospital and their nearest relatives.

[superal]

31 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Well which is it? Are you uninsured or self-insured? They are entirely different things..that was my point.

 

Unfortunately the uninsured make problems for the rest of us. As trend towards Immigration insurance requirements demonstrate.

 

Several times each year I am drawn into helping/facilitating situations whee someone's lack of insurance causes huge problems for them, the hospital and their nearest relatives.

Hi Sheryl ,

              I asked you a question on post 163 regarding an article 2 years ago in the Phuket News but it has gone without your reply . It concerned Phuket  Swiss expats who had formed a cooperative non profit making insurance scheme which I was kind of hoping may have had some input on this debate . As I recall the scheme attracted other European nationals . I also have read that the Philippine Government run an insurance scheme for their expat community  at a reasonable cost . So there are ways and means to overcome high premiums provided by commercial insurance companies . 

[Bangkok Basha]

2 hours ago, rumak said:

I still find it funny ( or sad might be better)   that with many so adamant that anyone who "self insures"

is an idiot....................... I just read almost every other post stating bad experiences with insurance companies.   Then of course the sage advice to "choose carefully"   .    hahahah

seems like that is not as easy as it sounds.

Meanwhile...... I have NEVER had a problem with my insurer

I have both Pacific Prime and Cigna Global policies (and am 75 years old). My Cigna monthly premium is very high ($450/month), but it has no exclusions except no coverage in N. America, and a $1500 annual deductible. My Pacific Prime policy (CV-19 coverage and world-wide) is THB 85,000/year. I've fortunately not had to make a claim on either policy, but a friend who also has Cigna Global had everything covered for cancer surgery and treatment at BNH Hospital in Bangkok.