Nationality decides your fate!

[Thaiforum]

Permission to enter and remain in Thailand is at the decision and discretion of the Royal Thai Government's Immigration Department.

 

They, Immigration, then pass the buck onto the Embassy of your citizenship with reference to you obtaining the required Letter for a Visa Extension. Obviously this only applies to certain people here in Thailand.

 

Every Immigration Department in Thailand seems to have issued a visa extension if you were able to obtain the Embassy letter, not heard otherwise, as this is what they requested.

 

Your nationality therefore decides your fate in this matter.

 

If you are a US citizen you apply online in minutes and obtain the letter almost immediately, definitely same day. Go get your visa extension. You are not required to give reasons for wanting to stay.

 

If you are a UK citizen you have to write to them and wait on average 5 days for a response. Irrespective of your reasons to stay you receive a rejection letter if,

 

"you have not provided evidence that you are applying for a long-term visa or that you live in a country where the borders are closed or the FCDO Travel Advice advises against travel". 

 

Given that commercial flights to UK are available and there are no restrictions on your return back to UK". 

 

Why does the UK Embassy get to play God.

 

You would think they would not hesitate to issue you a letter considering the current and grave Covid 19 statistics in the UK.

 

Legally what Act, Law or Statuate are they following that allows them to refuse the issuance of the required letter and your wish to remain elsewhere during an unprecedented global pandemic.

[geriatrickid]

Let's review; The visa rule in place from the government of Thailand is considered to be "humanitarian". It is intended to help people who are stranded in Thailand and who cannot return to their home country.  The letter is intended to validate that people are stranded due to closed borders and in need of the humanitarian based visa to remain in Thailand. There is a review of the request because enough people seek to exploit these measures that it can cause serious  problems.  SXome governments have  been obliged to undertake  the financial cost of rescuing their nationals who should not have been outside their home countries.

 

 

You applied for a letter from the UK government and received the response;

"you have not provided evidence that you are applying for a long-term visa or that you live in a country where the borders are closed or the FCDO Travel Advice advises against travel". 

 

That is quite clear. Have you considered providing the necessary documentation as others have done?

The procedures the  foreign office are following are  authorized by the UK parliament  through various immigration and administrative acts.

 

And if you really wish to be a prat about this, the government is under no obligation to issue any letter in respect to your application for a foreign visa.  You complain because you most likely sent  an unintelligible demand for a letter without following the  requirements to obtain that letter. Everyone is to blame except you.

[JackThompson]

25 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

The letter is intended to validate that people are stranded due to closed borders and in need of the humanitarian based visa to remain in Thailand.

We need borders open to get new visas, and a way to return to Thailand with those visas w/o insane quantine measures, etc. 

 

Quote

There is a review of the request because enough people seek to exploit these measures that it can cause serious  problems.

Please describe the "serious problems" that arise when self-funded foreigners continue to spend money at cash-strapped covid-damaged Thai businesses.

 

25 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

SXome governments have  been obliged to undertake  the financial cost of rescuing their nationals who should not have been outside their home countries.

Not sure why they "should not have been outside their home-countries."  Maybe they didn't plan for an extended stay?  But great those broke folks can get a flight out - since no welfare for them here.  They must be going homeless, if broke.  That leaves only those here with Money To Spend to Help Thais.

 

25 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

And if you really wish to be a prat about this, the government is under no obligation to issue any letter in respect to your application for a foreign visa.  

"Obligation"?  No.  But it's clear Thailand just wants cover to avoid being the "bad guy" for booting foreigners out during covid, when all their land-borders are closed, and most other locations where most of us stay, alternatively, are also closed (Vietnam, The PI, etc)  

 

Saying, "We would have accepted your embassy's letter," gives them that excuse.  Sad that the UK is throwing their citizens under the bus over a silly letter-request. 

Edited September 18, 2020 by JackThompson

[Caldera]

I think most countries' representatives (embassies) in Thailand aren't "amused" that the Thai authorities demand such letters. Their reaction to this nonsense differs, which is plain for all to see.

 

I can't say I blame my country's embassy for not issuing any letters at all (unlike in March, when they reluctantly did). But I like the approach of the US embassy better, which basically amounts to, "You want a meaningless letter? You get a meaningless letter!" - long may it last for the sake of those who need it.

[FlyingThai]

The embassies can do whatever they want. They follow the rules of their of Foreign Affairs Ministry back home.

 

Citizens are in no way entitled to demand the issuance of documents from their embassy that go beyond what is normally available (passports, notarizations etc).

 

It sucks but it is how it is. The U.S. Embassies worldwide have always been known for providing better citizen services than others, especially of European countries. In the U.S. there is somewhat of a semi-accountability of the government and citizens can write/call their Senator and Congressperson to make a stink. University friend of mine had some trouble getting assistance at the embassy in Seoul and then his parents contacted their Senator for that state. Two weeks later he got what needed. Good luck with that happening at the German embassy.

[Jake72]

I think getting the embassy letter and receiving a 30 days extension is still a very temporary solution. It's highly unlikely everything will return to normal within the next ~30 days. I'd be surprised if visa runs become an option again until some time next year. Anyway I hope they realize how many people will be overstaying after the 26th and offer a solution for everyone with means to remain here until the whole COVID thing blows over. E.g. something like a special monthly extension based on showing 50k in the bank for 30 days or something would be ideal, but that's of course not likely to happen.

[dbrenn]

The British Embassy is well known for sky high fees and useless service. 

[checkered flag]

9 hours ago, JackThompson said:

We need borders open to get new visas, and a way to return to Thailand with those visas w/o insane quantine measures, etc. 

 

Please describe the "serious problems" that arise when self-funded foreigners continue to spend money at cash-strapped covid-damaged Thai businesses.

 

Not sure why they "should not have been outside their home-countries."  Maybe they didn't plan for an extended stay?  But great those broke folks can get a flight out - since no welfare for them here.  They must be going homeless, if broke.  That leaves only those here with Money To Spend to Help Thais.

 

"Obligation"?  No.  But it's clear Thailand just wants cover to avoid being the "bad guy" for booting foreigners out during covid, when all their land-borders are closed, and most other locations where most of us stay, alternatively, are also closed (Vietnam, The PI, etc)  

 

Saying, "We would have accepted your embassy's letter," gives them that excuse.  Sad that the UK is throwing their citizens under the bus over a silly letter-request. 

The closed borders has really got under your skin. As a successful business person, I'd expect a more reasonable way to stay long term in Thailand. IMO Thailand has bent over backwards for six months to give you an opportunity to take a different approach, but you only blame them. It's called accepting responsibility. 

[checkered flag]

8 hours ago, Caldera said:

I think most countries' representatives (embassies) in Thailand aren't "amused" that the Thai authorities demand such letters. Their reaction to this nonsense differs, which is plain for all to see.

 

I can't say I blame my country's embassy for not issuing any letters at all (unlike in March, when they reluctantly did). But I like the approach of the US embassy better, which basically amounts to, "You want a meaningless letter? You get a meaningless letter!" - long may it last for the sake of those who need it.

The letter agreed is only a temporary thing and might be OK to buy time to get to get funds seasoned for an extension. Sometimes one needs to realize that enough is enough. Flights home are available (I'm not sure about Australia), but EU and US are good to go.

Looks to me they are holding two doors open 1) get a Non O or extension; 2) time to leave. The 30 day extension only helps this happen.

[ehgnyc]

This might be part of the reason why the US embassy started issuing letters:

Trump Considers Banning Re-entry by Citizens Who May Have Coronavirus

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/10/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-border.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

 

That's when I, and probably others, wrote the ambassador and asked him to reconsider.

[ballpoint]

We are seeing the rise of the "Covid Refugee", someone who is able to return to a country where they have citizenship or valid residency, but would rather stay elsewhere, despite not having the legal right to do so.  Thailand has provided a way around this, firstly by the "amnesty" (though that is really the wrong word for it, as an amnesty is effectively a mass pardon for a previously, or currently, illegal activity, whereas this is a temporary waiver of immigration law.  Anyone who was here illegally at the time this was announced, through overstaying or illegal entry, is not amnestied, but still subject to detention and expulsion.  End of side rant), and now through the option to produce an embassy letter stating why you can't return to your own country. 

 

Should this condition continue well into next year, and people and their embassies continue to abuse the option by handing in letters when they actually do have the means to return home, I suspect Thai Immigration will take a similar action to that done when the previous embassy letters guaranteeing that people had the necessary funds for their extension type were also abused, and demand more proof, thus effectively closing this loophole for these refugees and forcing them to either break the law by overstaying, get the correct visa extension, or return home.  (Along with the wailing and teeth gnashing we saw on here by those affected last time this was done).

[Jack Hna]

My UK brothers the FCDO have bottled it. Charge for them hunt them don't step until you get the letter. [email protected]

 

Resize all docs ensure under 5mb total.

 

Uk going back I to lockdown FCDO are doing business swiftly free of charge. Your non O visa or long term visa has been impacted by CV19. Detail your grievance clearly.

 

Good luck.

[GeorgeCross]

12 minutes ago, ballpoint said:

We are seeing the rise of the "Covid Refugee", someone who is able to return to a country where they have citizenship or valid residency, but would rather stay elsewhere, despite not having the legal right to do so. 

 

or as the UK press has coined the condition: "Covid Cowardice"

 

[Mike Teavee]

11 hours ago, Thaiforum said:

If you are a UK citizen you have to write to them and wait on average 5 days for a response. Irrespective of your reasons to stay you receive a rejection letter if,

So what are your reasons for not being able to leave Thailand & return to the UK? I can’t think of any that aren’t covered by the ones mentioned by the Embassy except medical & you don’t need a letter from them for that.

 

Oh & there have been reports of people being denied An extension using the US letter.

[Mike Teavee]

17 minutes ago, Jack Hna said:

Your non O visa or long term visa has been impacted by CV19

If this is the case, you can explain to them that you need an extension to give time for your funds to seed To get the 12 month extension & you should get a letter 

 

Of course it’s probably easier to just go see an agent 

Edited September 19, 2020 by Mike Teavee

[superatoz]

sigh why cant they just extend amnesty a few more months 

[Jack Hna]

Uk response time was 48 hours as of Wednesday this week and they delivered on time.

[email protected]

 

5MB file total. Note the caps in the email.

 

 

[jackdd]

15 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

So what are your reasons for not being able to leave Thailand & return to the UK? I can’t think of any that aren’t covered by the ones mentioned by the Embassy except medical & you don’t need a letter from them for that.

Thailand is a low risk country and the UK a high risk country for catching Covid, a potentially deadly disease.

Fear for one's life isn't reasonable?

[baansgr]

Take the rough with the smooth. US citizens are hounded by their government wherever they are in the world. IRS is on their back at every turn. Opening a bank account here a US citizen has extra paperwork to complete...can't have it all ways 

[Mike Teavee]

3 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Thailand is a low risk country and the UK a high risk country for catching Covid, a potentially deadly disease.

Fear for one's life isn't reasonable?

If you’re in the at risk category then tell them that or go to see a Dr & get a medical certificate 

[Jack Hna]

21 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

 

or as the UK press has coined the condition: "Covid Cowardice"

 

Well if you get your fill from the sun. I guess you are right. Power to the sheeple. My guess is you made it up and I bet your good at that.

[Walker88]

I have a slightly different take on these matters, based on 2 things:

 

1) I was granted a visa extension on my original 30-day Tourist Visa (or "Under consideration", due back in a month for official approval) this week by Thai Immigration

 

2) I carried a Diplomatic Passport for many years, working in numerous US Embassies around the world

 

Re the "Letter" the US gives its citizens. The Chief Minister for Consular Affairs at the US Embassy would have visited the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Immigration and run the letter by them. If the letter was unacceptable, those Thai entities would have suggested changes. Everybody would have been on board. Other nations' embassies could or would have done the same, so those embassies who are more demanding of their own citizens are doing that on their own, not at the request of Thai Immigration.

 

These visa extensions are a kind of tacit amnesty extension. The fact that when filling out the forms at Muang Thong Thani the IO instructs the applicant to write, under "Reasons for Requesting Extension", Covid-19, says they know full well why anyone wants to extend and they are being both kind and generous.  During my surprisingly short visit to MTT, where Thai Immigration was running a 'Swiss-watch' efficient operation, with both patience and understanding, I saw that most people were being granted the visa extension.

 

Why would Thailand do this?  I can think of three reasons:

 

1) They are displaying great kindness and understanding in a world gone virus-mad

2) They realize having many Covid-free folks spending money in Thailand while borders are closed is a benefit to Thailand and its working people

3) They are showing justifiable pride in the fact folks from "Developed" or OECD countries prefer Thailand over their home country and are confident Thailand is handling Covid better than their home country. In other words, Thailand is a safe haven.

 

All in all it is a win-win for those extended, for Thailand and its businesses, and for Immigration able to display the heart and efficiency that many didn't believe it had. I had made arrangements to depart, just as I had each time prior to amnesty extensions. Though a few of my earlier flights were cancelled, the flight I had booked for next week may well have run. Still, I prefer to stay, am happy to spend money here, and I know they know why I don't want to leave. Nobody is 'abusing the system'; Thailand is simply being kind.

 

I'm grateful to Thai Immigration as well as the Thai Govt for granting this privilege at this time.  Also, watching the procedure that Immigration has set up to deal with this influx of extension-seekers, and seeing the patience that every single IO or employee displayed to the foreigners seeking extensions, was nothing short of astonishing. I'm not sure what impression I had previously, but after my own experience I can say my personal view of Thai Immigration is nothing but positive.

[jackdd]

10 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

The fact that when filling out the forms at Muang Thong Thani the IO instructs the applicant to write, under "Reasons for Requesting Extension", Covid-19, says they know full well why anyone wants to extend and they are being both kind and generous.

They have the power to grant people an extension without an embassy letter, why don't they do this if they are so kind and generous?

Edited September 19, 2020 by jackdd

[Jack Hna]

48 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Thailand is a low risk country and the UK a high risk country for catching Covid, a potentially deadly disease.

Fear for one's life isn't reasonable?

Not sure, I used a multitude of reasons and threatened to board anywhere but uk and I underlined without their support I will be forced to travel during a period when FCDO advise the opposite. I highlighted if I did go back to UK my only objective would be to return to thailand as soon as possible. I believe the latest covid 19 uk update gas swayed them and they are ready to make those letters rain.

 

 

[Walker88]

50 minutes ago, jackdd said:

They have the power to grant people an extension without an embassy letter, why don't they do this if they are so kind and generous?

While you make a point worth considering, I think the reason things are being done as they are is because 1) there is an existing set of rules governing visa extensions that most IOs feel obliged to follow unless there are extenuating circumstances such as a specific diplomatic request and 2) the Thais wanted this to be a cooperative effort agreed to, or responsibility shared by, both Immigration and the governments of various countries. Thailand isn't responsible for those countries who aren't willing to play ball and give in a bit to their citizens.

 

The US, which as I posit likely cleared the letter with both the Thai MFA and Immigration, was willing to cooperate and freely gave copies of the letter to any AMCit who filled in the form. That allows the Thai authorities to say "we reviewed and accepted this request from a long term ally, and under the current circumstances we are willing to accommodate this request". It's diplomatic nuance, perhaps, but it allows everybody to save face and come across as the good guy. That's kind of what diplomacy is, and the gesture will be reciprocated at some point by the US, perhaps in something like MFN trade considerations.  As I said also, it's a plus for everyone in terms of safety, goodwill, and spending that helps Thai people and businesses. Somewhat surprisingly, it is also an admission by some in the USG that "we are doing an abysmal job re Covid, and we accept that Thailand is doing infinitely better" In other words, it is a pat on the back for Thailand.

[BritTim]

4 hours ago, jackdd said:

Thailand is a low risk country and the UK a high risk country for catching Covid, a potentially deadly disease.

Fear for one's life isn't reasonable?

Fear for ones life is perfectly reasonable. It is the argument often used by refugees who the UK will increasingly not accept. Thailand has historically been resistant to accepting refugees, so their attitude about those returning to countries with disease outbreaks should not surprise you.

[jackdd]

2 hours ago, Walker88 said:

1) there is an existing set of rules governing visa extensions that most IOs feel obliged to follow unless there are extenuating circumstances such as a specific diplomatic request

The existing set of rules would allow them to issue 30 day extensions based on the fact that there is a world wide pandemic, without an embassy letter:

Before the amnesty was enacted and people had problems getting embassy letters the immigration Bureau even sent a memo to all immigration offices, informing them that this option exists, we had a thread about this here on Thaivisa.

 

What immigration is doing has nothing to do with being kind or generous. At some later point people will probably accuse them of kicking people out of Thailand while there is an ongoing pandemic. Then immigration will counter with "you had the option to get an extension, that your embassy didn't want to give you this letter isn't our fault".

Edited September 19, 2020 by jackdd

[fondue zoo]

16 hours ago, JackThompson said:

We need borders open to get new visas, and a way to return to Thailand with those visas w/o insane quantine measures, etc. 

 

Please describe the "serious problems" that arise when self-funded foreigners continue to spend money at cash-strapped covid-damaged Thai businesses.

 

Not sure why they "should not have been outside their home-countries."  Maybe they didn't plan for an extended stay?  But great those broke folks can get a flight out - since no welfare for them here.  They must be going homeless, if broke.  That leaves only those here with Money To Spend to Help Thais.

 

"Obligation"?  No.  But it's clear Thailand just wants cover to avoid being the "bad guy" for booting foreigners out during covid, when all their land-borders are closed, and most other locations where most of us stay, alternatively, are also closed (Vietnam, The PI, etc)  

 

Saying, "We would have accepted your embassy's letter," gives them that excuse.  Sad that the UK is throwing their citizens under the bus over a silly letter-request. 

 

Yeah, why do so many on here imply that we're all on the street with a set of bongo drums busking for handouts. Or that foreigners are somehow a drain on Thai society purely by being here during Amnesty?  It's not like we're running off with the bowl of noodles without paying. for one thing it's too dam hot to run and many of us are too overweight to get very far.  Maybe hop down off the white destrier, remove the shiny armour, and lay down thy sword of self righteousness from time to time ????

 

[PGSan]

“Nationality decides your fate!”

 

’‘Tis the same the whole world over, ‘tis the . . . !!

 

’‘Twas ever thus !!

[potless]

5 hours ago, Walker88 said:

 

1) They are displaying great kindness and understanding in a world gone virus-mad

The Thai government will have a list of countries that are deemed high risk but have no qualms about telling people they should return to those countries.