Thai Beaches Won’t Reopen Fully Until Vaccines Become Available

[vermin on arrival]

1 hour ago, Jeffr2 said:

Science is science.  It evolves, it gets better, but it's not religion.  You seem to be reading the wrong news regarding the masks.  Are you anti-mask?  I know of NO medical expert who is.  Though a few who pretend to be are on YouTube and FaceBook.

 

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/502890-fauci-why-the-public-wasnt-told-to-wear-masks

No, not anti-mask, but it's interesting to see some studies analyzing preventive methods in nations which saw little correlation between mask mandates and reduction of numbers of infections. In addition, some states which were very successful such as NZ, Norway and Sweden had no mask mandates. Anders Tegnell, the head of the coivd response in Sweden, and  Camilla Stoltenberg, the Norwegian Director-General of the Norwegian Institute for Public Health, who advised the Norwegian government on their response to covid, said they had no recommendation for the general public to wear them, and saw no conclusive evidence to wear them. The head of the Oxford University Center for Evidence based medicine, Carl Henagan, concurs and was scathing in his analysis of pro mask research. So actually there are experts who don't think mask use is necessary for the general public.

 

Some states which enacted mask mandates early had horrible epidemics, but maybe it was already rampant in their countries. Also, I follow Taiwan very seriously since I need to get back to my home there and cannot. Their experts credit masks as the main reason for their success and still they say they have no conclusive scientific evidence for it. The scientific waters are very clearly muddied on this. We won't really know how effective they were until this is over. I gave my opinion on masks in the last paragraph in my prior post (please reread).

 

 

Yes, I am aware of that statement when Fauci tells why he lied to everyone about masks. The problem when a health expert does that is that it now calls into question all his statements. No really I only lied about that and I had good reason too....

 

It's not about reading the wrong news. The research is all over the place on every issue dealing with covid, except maybe that it is important to wash your hands and the there should be some social distancing. There is science behind every contradictory viewpoint. People need to be aware of this. The dismissiveness which people have for each other's viewpoints is kind of shocking when one realizes this.

 

Science is science....my point is that many people only look at the science which support their viewpoint and are dogmatic followers of these beliefs to the point of a kind of religious faith. They ignore the science on the other side and pretend that it does not exist with a kind of religious fervor. It seems pretty clear to me when watching and having discussions on covid.

 

I also think getting one's news from only one "legitimate" source or limited sources is a problem.

Edited October 3, 2020 by vermin on arrival

[Jeffr2]

31 minutes ago, vermin on arrival said:

No, not anti-mask, but it's interesting to see some studies analyzing preventive methods in nations which saw little correlation between mask mandates and reduction of numbers of infections. In addition, some states which were very successful such as NZ, Norway and Sweden had no mask mandates.

You need a better source for your news. 

 

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/09/coronavirus-potential-1000-fine-for-breaking-public-transport-mask-mandate.html

[Jeffr2]

34 minutes ago, vermin on arrival said:

It's not about reading the wrong news. The research is all over the place on every issue dealing with covid, except maybe that it is important to wash your hands and the there should be some social distancing. There is science behind every contradictory viewpoint. People need to be aware of this. The dismissiveness which people have for each other's viewpoints is kind of shocking when one realizes this.

 

The research is NOT all over the place on every issue.  It's been pretty consistent.  Masks, social distancing, testing, contact tracing, washing hands, etc.  Very consistent.  And no, there is not science behind every contradictory viewpoint.  Mostly, it's conspiracy stuff on dodgy websites and youtube videos.

[Peter Denis]

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

...

I know of NO medical expert who is.  Though a few who pretend to be are on YouTube and FaceBook.

...

Proud about your ignorance?

Thousands of doctors and medical professionals have made it clear that mask-wearing is only beneficial in very specific circumstances which are as good as nowhere met.  In USA the issue has been polarized to such a degree that mask-wearing has become a political statement. 

But luckily in European countries more and more medics are 'speaking up' and condemning this mask-wearing lunacy. 

[OumarhindaOunsingha]

On 10/1/2020 at 12:02 AM, genericptr said:

By the time a vaccine is available what will the death tolls be? I just read that currently in the US 977 people are dying per day. That's 0.000003053% of the population, and majority are over 70. Concerns for rising figures in the winter are warranted but seriously, we're shutting the globe down for this?

 

Yes, they are shutting the globe down for this. Extremely stupid, extremely brutal. But those in power are like this.

[OumarhindaOunsingha]

On 10/1/2020 at 2:18 AM, Jeffr2 said:

For those of us over 70, yes, shutting down the globe is OK.  We have rights also.

 

Those daily number of deaths are expected to rise dramatically very soon.

 

Easy answer.  Wear masks, social distance, abide by the directives from the medical experts.

And those millions of kids that will starve to death due to the economy shutdown - do they not have rights also? Or is it only the baby boomers? As usual? You don't think you are selfish?

[Cake Monster]

On 10/1/2020 at 10:33 PM, DavisH said:

Myanmar recorded 1000+ cases today. Tell me how much more susceptible the Burmese are than Thais. I would be very surprised if cases do not spill over the border (illegal migrants) in the next 2-3 months - as it did when it entered Myanmar from Bangladesh. 

Myanmar also borders with the Country that started this Global mess

Maybe, just maybe the Virus came in via that route

Just saying

 

[OumarhindaOunsingha]

On 10/1/2020 at 11:42 AM, Jeffr2 said:

France is doing almost double now what they were doing back in March.  So yeah, this isn't Feb and March anymore.  At least deaths are way down, due to a better understanding of the disease. 

 

Herd immunity is a myth.  But with the jab, unless a majority of people take it, it won't be that helpful.

 

Just came out that India's death rate may be 10x.  Same has been said of many other countries.  If you don't have a test kit, how do you test. Impossible.

 

That's what I started with.  Sensible precautions.  Things would change dramatically if everybody was onboard with that.

Millions will starve to death, many kids, too. That aside, Sweden did nearly nothing, and have less than 6,000 deaths. More than ten million live in that country. Also, the average age here in Denmark for those dead with covid is HIGHER than the average life expectancy. So, very, very clearly we are dealing with a very, very peaceful virus. Also, if you want the world economy to shut down due to the covid's very low mortality rate, you also have to have the same position on seasonal flu, as it also kills hundreds of thousands. And tuberculosis. And malaria. And all traffic in the world must be stopped as well, because over a million die in traffic accidents every year on this planet. Etc. 

Is there really no end to people's stupidity? And egoism? 

[Jeffr2]

5 minutes ago, OumarhindaOunsingha said:

Millions will starve to death, many kids, too. That aside, Sweden did nearly nothing, and have less than 6,000 deaths. More than ten million live in that country. Also, the average age here in Denmark for those dead with covid is HIGHER than the average life expectancy. So, very, very clearly we are dealing with a very, very peaceful virus. Also, if you want the world economy to shut down due to the covid's very low mortality rate, you also have to have the same position on seasonal flu, as it also kills hundreds of thousands. And tuberculosis. And malaria. And all traffic in the world must be stopped as well, because over a million die in traffic accidents every year on this planet. Etc. 

Is there really no end to people's stupidity? And egoism? 

Sweden blew it compared to the other Nordic countries.  Way more deaths and their economy is in worse shape.  I wouldn't hold them out as a great example unless you are against masks and social distancing.

 

A very peaceful virus?  Wow....seriously?  Over a million dead, millions more with potentially life long consequences, and we're not done yet!  Peaceful?  Wow...

 

 

[DrTuner]

19 minutes ago, Cake Monster said:

Myanmar also borders with the Country that started this Global mess

Maybe, just maybe the Virus came in via that route

Just saying

 

It likely came from India, the "chicken neck" that borders Myanmar.

Edited October 3, 2020 by DrTuner

[DrTuner]

5 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Sweden blew it compared to the other Nordic countries. 

They blew it in the beginning when the virus got into elderly care homes. That's months ago, now they are about on par with other nordics. Absolute cases mean little without the time dimension.

[OumarhindaOunsingha]

16 hours ago, daveAustin said:

I agree. You've had your time, Jeff, and during the VERY easy boomer generation to boot. So lock yourselves away if you want and let the rest of the world at least try to achieve the level of freedom and enjoyment you luck b'tards had. 

Thank you. Just my words.

[OumarhindaOunsingha]

43 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Sweden blew it compared to the other Nordic countries.  Way more deaths and their economy is in worse shape.  I wouldn't hold them out as a great example unless you are against masks and social distancing.

 

A very peaceful virus?  Wow....seriously?  Over a million dead, millions more with potentially life long consequences, and we're not done yet!  Peaceful?  Wow...

 

 

You are not reading my comment carefully. I said that is there are only less than 6,000 deaths in a country with more than ten million inhabitants, in a country that did nearly nothing to stop the spread of the virus, then certainly it must be a very peaceful virus. I backed this fact up with the average age of those dead with corona. Please do read my comment again, so you will understand better. 

[OumarhindaOunsingha]

46 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Sweden blew it compared to the other Nordic countries.  Way more deaths and their economy is in worse shape.  I wouldn't hold them out as a great example unless you are against masks and social distancing.

 

A very peaceful virus?  Wow....seriously?  Over a million dead, millions more with potentially life long consequences, and we're not done yet!  Peaceful?  Wow...

 

 

Over a million deaths? Yes, so what? Almost 400,000 deaths this year from ordinary flu. And around a million from tuberculosis. And almost a million from malaria. Etc. But many millions will die from starvation due to the economy shutdown. Also millions of kids. Please think about this topic a bit before you comment on it.

[Jeffr2]

18 hours ago, DrTuner said:

They blew it in the beginning when the virus got into elderly care homes. That's months ago, now they are about on par with other nordics. Absolute cases mean little without the time dimension.

Just read this about Sweden.  As they say, it's still to early to make a call on these things.  The very friendly virus isn't done with us yet.  Crazy times.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/28/europe/sweden-uk-coronavirus-immunity-analysis-gbr-intl/index.html

[vermin on arrival]

20 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

The research is NOT all over the place on every issue.  It's been pretty consistent.  Masks, social distancing, testing, contact tracing, washing hands, etc.  Very consistent.  And no, there is not science behind every contradictory viewpoint.  Mostly, it's conspiracy stuff on dodgy websites and youtube videos.

Nope. Sorry incorrect. Testing? The PCR test is a joke.

 

Have a good one and good luck to you in this difficult time.

[vermin on arrival]

34 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Just read this about Sweden.  As they say, it's still to early to make a call on these things.  The very friendly virus isn't done with us yet.  Crazy times.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/28/europe/sweden-uk-coronavirus-immunity-analysis-gbr-intl/index.html

Most likely due to the level of immunity Sweden has a achieved, I expect Sweden will have a very mild time this winter with covid while their Nordic neighbors scramble about like chickens with their heads off and have additional lockdowns.

 

Its health care professionals feel very confident about the situation they are in now. Here are some links for your personal edification.

 

Here is a blog by a practicing physician in Sweden, Sebastian Rushworth:

 

https://sebastianrushworth.com/2020/08/04/how-bad-is-covid-really-a-swedish-doctors-perspective/

 

his bio:

https://sebastianrushworth.com/about/

 

a little old now, but a July interview with Andres Tegnell, architect of Sweden’s response to the Covid-19 pandemic, on Covid and Sweden:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh9wso6bEAc

 

Here is an interview with Swedish Doctor and researcher Soo Aleman also in July on Swedish situation, immunity and herd immunity:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh9wso6bEAc

 

From Reuters in Sept:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-sweden-strategy/positive-covid-tests-in-no-lockdown-sweden-hit-lowest-rate-since-pandemic-began-idUSKBN25Z2TM

 

Another assessment in Sept giving both viewpoints from Sweden health care community and its critics. Please take note of the assessments of the Swedish health care professionals:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/sweden-has-developed-herd-immunity-after-refusing-to-lock-down-experts-claim-its-coronavirus-infection-rate-is-falling-2020-08-24

 

[ourmanflint]

1 hour ago, Jeffr2 said:

Just read this about Sweden.  As they say, it's still to early to make a call on these things.  The very friendly virus isn't done with us yet.  Crazy times.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/28/europe/sweden-uk-coronavirus-immunity-analysis-gbr-intl/index.html

Good article, still all those idiots who persist in touting the Swedish model as being the way forward, simply do not understand what has happened in Sweden is not a good result.

As the article states, more than 50% of people live alone in Sweden, compared to just 12% in the UK. Like for like Sweden has had only 20 % less cases than the UK, taking into account the percentage living alone, this is a terrible result, and would have been far far worse than UK if households were of a similar basis

[Pattaya46]

21 hours ago, OumarhindaOunsingha said:

On 10/1/2020 at 12:02 AM, genericptr said:

// but seriously, we're shutting the globe down for this?

 

Yes, they are shutting the globe down for this. Extremely stupid, extremely brutal. But those in power are like this.

No, not for the graph above, but for the graph below ! ????

 

[Peter Denis]

20 minutes ago, vermin on arrival said:

...

Here is a blog by a practicing physician in Sweden, Sebastian Rushworth:

https://sebastianrushworth.com/2020/08/04/how-bad-is-covid-really-a-swedish-doctors-perspective/

...

Thanks for your post.  The article you linked (see higher) dates from beginning of August, but it provides an excellent overview of the Swedish strategy to address the covid-19 crisis and the sound reasoning behind it.

We are now beginning of October, and dr Rushworth posted an update on 19 Sept.

https://sebastianrushworth.com/2020/09/19/covid-19-does-sweden-have-herd-immunity/

 

His conclusion (based on sound facts and data, presented in a non-sensational way)

> Covid is over in Sweden. We have herd immunity. Most likely, many other parts of the world do too, including England, Italy, and parts of the US, like New York. And the countries that have successfully contained the spread of the disease, like Germany, Denmark, New Zealand, and Australia, are going to have to stay in lockdown for at least another year, and possibly several years, if they don’t want to develop herd immunity the natural way.

[nev]

5 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

No, not for the graph above, but for the graph below ! ????

 

If you read the small print it says it may not be a accurate count of deaths by covid-19, so they are basically saying they are adding deaths with covid-19 to deaths by covid-19. Boosting the numbers again.

[Peter Denis]

16 minutes ago, nev said:

If you read the small print it says it may not be a accurate count of deaths by covid-19, so they are basically saying they are adding deaths with covid-19 to deaths by covid-19. Boosting the numbers again.

Not only that, but individual countries are at different stages of the pandemic and using different strategies.

How can you draw any sensible conclusions when you put them all in the Same Bag? 

The individual countries data and graphs are available, and these provide a totally different picture per country.  Putting the evolution of covid-19 cases/deaths in Thailand, Sweden, UK, Brazil and USA in one graph will not tell you that, but it is quite illuminating when actually looking at the evolution per country.

Quite easy also > just google covid-19 cases and then per country toggle between cases and deaths.

 

Edited October 4, 2020 by Peter Denis

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, vermin on arrival said:

Nope. Sorry incorrect. Testing? The PCR test is a joke.

 

Have a good one and good luck to you in this difficult time.

PCR testing isn't perfect.  About 1/3rd are inaccurate.  But better than nothing.

 

Thanks for your good wishes.

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, vermin on arrival said:

Most likely due to the level of immunity Sweden has a achieved, I expect Sweden will have a very mild time this winter with covid while their Nordic neighbors scramble about like chickens with their heads off and have additional lockdowns.

 

Its health care professionals feel very confident about the situation they are in now. Here are some links for your personal edification.

 

Here is a blog by a practicing physician in Sweden, Sebastian Rushworth:

 

https://sebastianrushworth.com/2020/08/04/how-bad-is-covid-really-a-swedish-doctors-perspective/

 

his bio:

https://sebastianrushworth.com/about/

 

a little old now, but a July interview with Andres Tegnell, architect of Sweden’s response to the Covid-19 pandemic, on Covid and Sweden:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh9wso6bEAc

 

Here is an interview with Swedish Doctor and researcher Soo Aleman also in July on Swedish situation, immunity and herd immunity:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh9wso6bEAc

 

From Reuters in Sept:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-sweden-strategy/positive-covid-tests-in-no-lockdown-sweden-hit-lowest-rate-since-pandemic-began-idUSKBN25Z2TM

 

Another assessment in Sept giving both viewpoints from Sweden health care community and its critics. Please take note of the assessments of the Swedish health care professionals:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/sweden-has-developed-herd-immunity-after-refusing-to-lock-down-experts-claim-its-coronavirus-infection-rate-is-falling-2020-08-24

 

I did a google search on Sebastian.  He mostly shows up in some fringe websites.  Sorry, but doesn't seem to be the most reliable source.  Pretty much nothing on YouTube is either.  If it's there, and it's reliable, it's from a website somewhere.

 

That article I posted said this:

 

Quote

The problem is, the science isn't in on whether immunity is building in Sweden at all, after the country resisted lockdowns and let the virus spread through much of its population.

 

Herd immunity hasn't been proven with this new virus.  They have no idea, but are getting more educated every day.

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, ourmanflint said:

Good article, still all those idiots who persist in touting the Swedish model as being the way forward, simply do not understand what has happened in Sweden is not a good result.

As the article states, more than 50% of people live alone in Sweden, compared to just 12% in the UK. Like for like Sweden has had only 20 % less cases than the UK, taking into account the percentage living alone, this is a terrible result, and would have been far far worse than UK if households were of a similar basis

Understood.  The problem is, many here read one article and take it as gospel.  Even if it's from YouTube!  Incredible. 

 

We don't fully understand this virus yet.  And as you pointed out, the details here perhaps help explain what happened there.  I've read some of the same findings.

[Pattaya46]

57 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Not only that, but individual countries are at different stages of the pandemic and using different strategies.

How can you draw any sensible conclusions when you put them all in the Same Bag? 

The 2 posts I replied to were talking about "shutting the globe down"

How can you get any status of "the globe"/"the world" without putting together data from all countries ?

You guys are just trying to find false excuses to "eliminate" data and graphs that you don't like... or who not match with your biased theory... 

[Rimmer]

A conspiracy troll post has been removed

[Peter Denis]

16 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

The 2 posts I replied to were talking about "shutting the globe down"

How can you get any status of "the globe"/"the world" without putting together data from all countries ?

You guys are just trying to find false excuses to "eliminate" data and graphs that you don't like... or who not match with your biased theory... 

The poster to whose post your reacted was making the point that 'shutting down the globe' without taking into consideration the phase of the pandemic in specific countries (he was referring to UK) is probably not a wise decision - understatement.

Not trying to eliminate data or graphs, but the graphs should be meaningful.  Adding the cases and deaths of different countries which are at totally different phases and display rising/diminishing trends, in one stew obscures analysis and insight.

[morrobay]

On 10/2/2020 at 9:59 AM, nong38 said:

By the time the vaccine arrives the virus will have mutated and the big effect of it will be lost, vaccines are always behind the curve as with flu. Get used to living with it as it mutates as we have in the past.

But the good news is by way of natural selection: The viruses  that evolve will favor strains that while more transmissible and infectious  will also be less lethal.

 

Edited October 4, 2020 by morrobay

[vermin on arrival]

1 hour ago, Jeffr2 said:

I did a google search on Sebastian.  He mostly shows up in some fringe websites.  Sorry, but doesn't seem to be the most reliable source.  Pretty much nothing on YouTube is either.  If it's there, and it's reliable, it's from a website somewhere.

 

That article I posted said this:

 

 

Herd immunity hasn't been proven with this new virus.  They have no idea, but are getting more educated every day.

Those youtube videos posted are interviews with the health care professionals. The words directly out of Dr. Soo Aleman's and Anders Tegnell's mouths. Does it matter who interviews them? It seems absurd to dismiss them offhand. So if CNN interviews Anders Tegnell, it's valid, but Freddie Sayers does an in depth interview with Tegnell on his own and posts it on youtube, it's not?

 

Sebastian Rushworth is a practicing physician in Stockholm, with experience treating covid patients in emergency rooms. His thoughts on the pandemic are just as valid as any other front line physicians. The real question is not his credibility, but why is his voice and those of many others not showing up more elsewhere in the main stream media and what it says about their credibility.

 

Here is his interview from Sky News Australia on August 22, which Sky News Australia posted on youtube. Does that make his viewpoint more valid? Does posting an interview from a news network on youtube make that a less valid source? You know cnn has a youtube channel too; expert opinions can be given and found from that source. I suggest you watch these interviews and open your mind a bit more.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVmh10_7JPs&t=156s

 

It's interesting when discussing immunity in this interview, Rushworth mentions that only 10-20% of his fellow emergency room colleagues tested positive for antibodies despite being exposed to covid patients on a daily basis during the winter so there is probably much more immunity in people than we are led to believe.

 

Certainly people don't fully understand the virus, but they do have informed opinions/ideas based on science and the understanding of how coronaviruses, flus and other respiratory viruses historically behave. This virus is not completely novel; that is the myth. While herd immunity hasn't been "proven", it is logical and scientific to believe it should exist, and many health care professionals do so.