UK, NHS Charging, updated guidance

[Mike Teavee 1,777]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

What part of "my own frozen state pension" did you find difficult.

You are wrong on several counts, you have distorted what I said, it was two separate sentences, the second meant that normally pensioners would pay their tax liability via other income, usually another pension.

The state pension is certainly not taxed at 0%, the implication of that would be there is no tax liability, but the liability does not disappear because of the personal allowance.

In my case the state pension is added to a small private pension and the allowance is deducted from the combined total, with all the tax(about 22%) being taken from the private pension.

You need to adjust your thinking, the allowance is applied to total income not just part of it.

I don't know where you get this from "a state pension of maximum £170 pw", if my pension wasn't frozen it would over £220 pw.

Are we reading the same posts? where did I mention your frozen state pension & I find no part of it difficult to understand (I do find it difficult to understand you would have both a frozen pension & pay tax on your private pension but that's your business... Oh & I thought if you paid tax on a pension it was at 20% for the whole lot).  

 

Ok, I admit that I misread your 2 sentences "If your state pension is your only income and over the personal allowance you must pay directly to HMRC. Normally collected through other income." but that is only because the maximum state pension is £175.20 (https://www.gov.uk/new-state-pension/what-youll-get#:~:text=The full new State Pension,amount of Additional State Pension) so the 1st sentence doesn't make sense in isolation

 

 

And where did I say the allowance wasn't applied to the whole amount (even though it isn't, it's only applicable up to a maximum of whatever this year's Personal Allowance)

 

 

Edit: Have just seen your comment about people claiming pension in 2012 getting more than the current maximum of £175 pw, 1st I've ever heard of this and find it difficult to believe that they could have changed the rules so much that somebody who retired before the new rules came in (IIRC April 2015?) could now get > £250 pw but people retiring later can only get a maximum of around £175 (Obviously it was much less then). without a serious sh1tstorm kicking off but if you say so... 

 

Edit to add one last word on Pensions (This thread is supposed to be about NHS)...  

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/tax-when-you-live-abroad

Tax when you live abroad

If you live abroad but are classed as a UK resident for tax purposes, you may have to pay UK tax on your pension. The amount you pay depends on your income.

If you’re not a UK resident, you don’t usually pay UK tax on your pension. But you might have to pay tax in the country you live in. There are a few exceptions - for example, UK civil service pensions will always be taxed in the UK.

 

 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Mike Teavee

[impulse 20,626]

On 10/15/2020 at 8:57 PM, theoldgit said:

Indeed, and the guidance confirms that emergency treatment will continue to be provided to all without charge, it's the ongoing treatment that's chargable.

 

But is it provided "without charge". or is it "regardless of ability to pay"? 

 

In the first case, you don't get a bill at all.  In the latter case, you get treated regardless.  But you may be presented with a whopper of an invoice.  And they can come after your assets if you don't pay up.

 

[Pilotman 18,163]

On 10/16/2020 at 4:51 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Years ago NZ decided to make everyone pay part of the cost of hospital care/ consultant appointment etc. The cost of collecting the money exceeded the amount collected so they abandoned the project.

 

Re the UK, if every elderly expat returned to live in the UK the cost to the NHS would bankrupt it, IMO. The elderly are the greatest burden on any health service, IMO.

the elderly are also the very people who have made the largest financial input to the NHS over their working lives  and therefore over the longest number of years.  It's a right not a privilege to be treated. 

[impulse 20,626]

8 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

the elderly are also the very people who have made the largest financial input to the NHS over their working lives  and therefore over the longest number of years.  It's a right not a privilege to be treated. 

 

That's true, unless they lived their life 28 on/ 28 off, staying outside the country for decades to avoid paying in.  Which describes a lot of expats in Thailand.

 

[Pilotman 18,163]

7 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

That's true, unless they lived their life 28 on/ 28 off, staying outside the country for decades to avoid paying in.  Which describes a lot of expats in Thailand.

 

That is easily resolved . If you have paid in UK tax and Ni for 40 years or more, there should be no argument as to your access to free medical care in the UK, regardless of where you decide to spend your retirement.  Its the usual UK worthies cop out, out of sight out of mind.  The Country makes me ashamed to be British, for so many reasons. 

[Pumpuynarak 347]

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

In my case the state pension is added to a small private pension and the allowance is deducted from the combined total, with all the tax(about 22%) being taken from the private pension.

You need to adjust your thinking, the allowance is applied to total income not just part of it.

Bingo

[impulse 20,626]

4 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

That is easily resolved . If you have paid in UK tax and Ni for 40 years or more, there should be no argument as to your access to free medical care in the UK, regardless of where you decide to spend your retirement.  Its the usual UK worthies cop out, out of sight out of mind.  The Country makes me ashamed to be British, for so many reasons. 

 

I don't disagree, but a pension GBP spent in the UK reverberates through the UK economy many times, creating jobs and paying taxes in the UK each time it's recirculated.  A pension GBP sent to Thailand is lost to the UK economy. 

 

It only makes sense that they offer incentives to keep those pension GBP in country.  Or disincentives to pull them out...

 

And there are plenty of expats in Thailand for the primary purpose of eliminating their back home tax liability.  Hardly seems fair that they can get tragically, expensively sick and rock up to claim their NHS entitlement right next to the guys who've paid in their entire life.

 

[Pilotman 18,163]

6 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

I don't disagree, but a pension GBP spent in the UK reverberates through the UK economy many times, creating jobs and paying taxes in the UK each time it's recirculated.  A pension GBP sent to Thailand is lost to the UK economy. 

 

It only makes sense that they offer incentives to keep those pension GBP in country.  Or disincentives to pull them out...

 

And there are plenty of expats in Thailand for the primary purpose of eliminating their back home tax liability.  Hardly seems fair that they can get tragically, expensively sick and rock up to claim their NHS entitlement right next to the guys who've paid in their entire life.

 

government will always find a reason not to do something or to give something,  it's in their DNA. Inertia is a must. 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Pilotman

[theoldgit 5,410]

12 hours ago, impulse said:

 

But is it provided "without charge". or is it "regardless of ability to pay"? 

 

In the first case, you don't get a bill at all.  In the latter case, you get treated regardless.  But you may be presented with a whopper of an invoice.  And they can come after your assets if you don't pay up.

 

 

All emergency treatment to anybody is free at the point of delivery, unlike Singapore where my then girlfriend was paying a hefty deposit on her credit card whilst I was being recuscited, ability to pay doesn't come into question.
Follow up treatment is charged in full, and for expats plus 50%, and may be witheld until the bill is paid.

[sandyf 6,325]

15 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Are we reading the same posts? where did I mention your frozen state pension & I find no part of it difficult to understand (I do find it difficult to understand you would have both a frozen pension & pay tax on your private pension but that's your business... Oh & I thought if you paid tax on a pension it was at 20% for the whole lot).  

You didn't, I mentioned my frozen pension and you went on to say "Unless you're still working for a UK firm, are an ex-UK civil servant etc etc."

 

It is fairly obvious you find it difficult to understand and nothing I say is going to change that.

[impulse 20,626]

10 minutes ago, theoldgit said:

All emergency treatment to anybody is free at the point of delivery, unlike Singapore where my then girlfriend was paying a hefty deposit on her credit card whilst I was being recuscited, ability to pay doesn't come into question.
Follow up treatment is charged in full, and for expats plus 50%, and may be witheld until the bill is paid.

 

That's good info.  Here in the Land of the Free, Home of the Brave, the hospitals are required to render emergency treatment regardless of ability to pay.  But then they bill you out the wazoo.  

 

 

[sandyf 6,325]

12 hours ago, Pilotman said:

the elderly are also the very people who have made the largest financial input to the NHS over their working lives  and therefore over the longest number of years.  It's a right not a privilege to be treated. 

Exactly my point, my Ni contributions are about as high as they can get and I have paid income tax throughout my working life and every year since.

Those pensioners living abroad and paying income tax are paying about 60% of that tax into pensions, health and welfare so should be entitled to some benefit from the payment.

[theoldgit 5,410]

15 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Edit to add one last word on Pensions (This thread is supposed to be about NHS)...  

 

Indeed it is, can we stick to the actual topic from now on please?

[Mike Teavee 1,777]

Has anybody gone through the questions in the Ordinary Residence Test? 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/736849/Ordinary_residence_tool.pdf I've no doubts that I would come back as Not Ordinary Resident as about the only thing I have going for me is I have a few UK Bank Accounts so unless I was honestly moving back (or being "Economical with the Truth") then I'm paying for any treatment I have on the NHS...  

 

As mentioned before, I think Brexit has the potential to cause real upsets here, especially if the split is acrimonious & the UK stops providing NHS healthcare for EU citizens. 

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Mike Teavee
Removed comments on UK Pensions... Been Done to Death...

[Eff1n2ret 670]

7 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

so unless I was honestly moving back (or being "Economical with the Truth") then I'm paying for any treatment I have on the NHS...  

 

As mentioned before, I think Brexit has the potential to cause real upsets here, especially if the split is acrimonious & the UK stops providing NHS healthcare for EU citizens. 

Treatment by a GP and at A&E is still free to all, it is in-patient treatment that you would pay for - but you're right, those who haven't read the questions to which you refer may be  in for a nasty shock if they think they can just get off a plane and have themselves referred to a hospital just because they're British.

As far as Brexit is concerned, I once tried reading Mrs May's Withdrawal Agreement and got through about 60 pages before my eyes glazed over and I gave up. But all those pages were about preserved reciprocal rights between UK and EU citizens and I doubt there will be a problem about that. All EU citizens who have established permanent residence would be considered "ordinarily resident in the UK", and therefore entitled to the full benefits of the NHS. What future arrangements they have made about visitors, either from the EU to the UK or vice versa I'm not sure about, but it wouldn't be too terrible to expect those going on holiday to arrange some insurance cover.