SWIFT Transfer or Transferwise? (USA to TH)

[Goldbear]

Hi, I am looking for feedback about the best way to transfer money from the USA to Thailand. In 2018/2019 I did two transfers using the Bangkok Bank New York ACH method, which is no longer allowed. I’m now looking for the best alternative.

 

In my current scenario I want to transfer $49,000 USD to Thailand (Immigration money, vehicle purchase, living expenses). later I would do smaller amounts maybe two times a year, for living expenses.

 

It seems to come down to two main ways to transfer the money:

1. SWIFT Wire transfer from my USA credit union to my Bangkok Bank account in Thailand. There is a $25 USD wire transfer fee and a 500 baht receiving fee at Bangkok Bank. It is sent in dollars and converted to baht upon arrival in Thailand, at the exchange rate offered at that moment.

2. ACH wire transfer from my USA bank to Transferwise, which will deposit baht into my Bangkok Bank account. They use the agreed exchange rate on their site. Their fee is $288. There is a 30 baht receiving fee from Bangkok Bank. There is a $25 transfer fee from my USA credit union.

On it’s face, the SWIFT Transfer from my credit union seems cheaper. Am I missing something? Transferwise claims to be cheaper than banks. Could the difference be in the exchange rate? Maybe it's not even true, at least in my case? 

 

Yesterday I read an article by an American blogger in Europe. He said that for him, Transferwise was less expensive amounts under about 875 Euro. Otherwise, a regular bank transfer was cheaper. I wonder if that would generalize to the USA and Thailand using a SWIFT transfer?

 

I’m looking for feedback from anyone who has knowledge of any of that and can educate me. My assumptions might not be correct. I am trying to learn.

 

(For smaller amounts of money it seems easy to use my USA debit card to send money to Transferwise, which then puts it in my Thailand bank account. I did that as a test two days ago, with $50 and it worked.)

 

Thanks very much!

Edited October 15, 2020 by Goldbear
Formatting

[henry2109]

"Am I missing someting?"

 

Yes, you are. You mention the direct expenses/charges you will experiance with each method. That is only half of the solution.

 

 Equal or more important is the appicable exchange rate for the respective transfer. With Transferwise, you get a middle rate between ask/buy, eg. far better than with any banks. You have to ask for the applicable exchange rate from the involved banks. A bad rate could cost you easily some hundert dollars.

[Pib]

In many cases depending on the exchange rate and currency pairs involved you can be better off using SWIFT than using Transferwise.   Although Transferwise has a better exchange rate that higher rate can not always offset the impact of their fees which increase for higher amount sent.   You need to do a cost analysis which includes exchange rate and fees.

 

Whereas with a SWIFT transfer direct from your bank the sending fee is the same for a small or large amount and on the Thailand receiving end the fee is going to usually fall within Bt200 minimum to Bt500 maximum.

 

If you use Transferwise.  And below snapshot does not reflect the Wire fee from your US bank to Transferwise to fund the transfer.  So be sure to include that fee in your cost analysis (i.e., a correction factor) by substracting that fee (you said $25 which is around Bt781 using the Transferwise exchange rate) from the bottom line baht figure below and you end up with Bt1,520,298.

 

 

If you use SWIFT from your US bank to your Thai bank...and let's say your sending it to Bangkok Bank.  The Bangkok Bank TT Buying Rate used for incoming international SWIFT/ACH transfers is 31.05 right now in comparison to Transferwise's 31.23 above.  And lets just assume these two rates stay pretty stable over next few days.   $49,000 times 31.05 equals Bt1,521,450.  For that amount the receiving Thai bank will apply a Bt500 receiving fee so you are now down to Bt1.520,950. And lets apply a correction factor for the $25 SWIFT Wire fee...$25 is approx Bt776 using the Bangkok Bank exchange rate...which means you end up with Bt1,520,174 which is only Bt124 less than the Transferwise amount, but without the extra hassle of using Transferwise as a middleman.    Now, your US bank may end up having to use an intermediary bank which may result in another $20 or so being sliced off as it flows to the Thai bank....you just don't know if that will occur or not until completing the transfer...or having experience from previous like transfers.

 

Bottomline is you need to do a cost analysis that considers "both exchange rate and fees"....not just fees only...not just exchange rate only.   Then make your decision.

 

Personally, I would just use SWIFT direct from your US bank to your Thai bank...not use Transferwise as a middle man in this case.  Using a middle man to save Bt124 wouldn't be worth it to me....just one less issue to worry about.

[Pib]

And DO NOT let your sending US bank/CU accomplish the exchange on their end/before sending. 

 

Quite a few US banks try to talk you into this...use vague language in the online banking doing their best trying to make you think it's best to let them accomplish the exchange--IT IS NOT BETTER FOR YOU.  It's only better for them as they earn a handsome indirect fee at your expense from the lower exchange rate they will use.  Always send US Dollars...do not let your sending US bank accomplish the exchange on their end and send baht.

Edited October 15, 2020 by Pib

[Pib]

And one other issue you may want to consider if your  think you will repatriate the money in the future....maybe get tired of Thailand...decide to move back  a few years or 30 years from now.  If sending the money via Transferwise you could very well end up with the Thai bank coding the money received as "domestic/intra-Thailand" transfer based on how Transferwise operates, which Thai partner bank Transferwise will use to complete the final leg of the transfer, reason for transfer used, which Thai bank you are sending to,  etc.  You may have to go through extra effort with the Thai receiving bank to get a foreign exchange document confirming the money originated from the US.  Although the Transferwise PDF receipt will show the money come from the US it may not be good enough to repatriate the money....you may need a "Thai bank" document confirming international transfer.   There have been a lot of ThaiVisa threads on this subject related to people doing monthly/periodic transfers but needing international coding for immigration visa/extension of stay purposes.

 

But if using SWIFT the changes of receiving "international" transfer coding is close to 100% which will make repatriation of the funds much easier in the future.  Be sure to get a foreign exchange transfer doc from the receiving bank....tuck it away for the future in case you need to repatriate the money since $49K is a big chunk of money.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Pib

[Goldbear]

Thanks for the detailed responses, Pib. You answered my questions and a few that I hadn't considered like repatriating the money.

 

I located Bangkok Bank's TT buying rate, online.

 

Thank you!

 

 

 

 

 

[caughtintheact]

19 hours ago, Pib said:

In many cases depending on the exchange rate and currency pairs involved you can be better off using SWIFT than using Transferwise.   Although Transferwise has a better exchange rate that higher rate can not always offset the impact of their fees which increase for higher amount sent.   You need to do a cost analysis which includes exchange rate and fees.

 

Whereas with a SWIFT transfer direct from your bank the sending fee is the same for a small or large amount and on the Thailand receiving end the fee is going to usually fall within Bt200 minimum to Bt500 maximum.

 

If you use Transferwise.  And below snapshot does not reflect the Wire fee from your US bank to Transferwise to fund the transfer.  So be sure to include that fee in your cost analysis (i.e., a correction factor) by substracting that fee (you said $25 which is around Bt781 using the Transferwise exchange rate) from the bottom line baht figure below and you end up with Bt1,520,298.

 

 

If you use SWIFT from your US bank to your Thai bank...and let's say your sending it to Bangkok Bank.  The Bangkok Bank TT Buying Rate used for incoming international SWIFT/ACH transfers is 31.05 right now in comparison to Transferwise's 31.23 above.  And lets just assume these two rates stay pretty stable over next few days.   $49,000 times 31.05 equals Bt1,521,450.  For that amount the receiving Thai bank will apply a Bt500 receiving fee so you are now down to Bt1.520,950. And lets apply a correction factor for the $25 SWIFT Wire fee...$25 is approx Bt776 using the Bangkok Bank exchange rate...which means you end up with Bt1,520,174 which is only Bt124 less than the Transferwise amount, but without the extra hassle of using Transferwise as a middleman.    Now, your US bank may end up having to use an intermediary bank which may result in another $20 or so being sliced off as it flows to the Thai bank....you just don't know if that will occur or not until completing the transfer...or having experience from previous like transfers.

 

Bottomline is you need to do a cost analysis that considers "both exchange rate and fees"....not just fees only...not just exchange rate only.   Then make your decision.

 

Personally, I would just use SWIFT direct from your US bank to your Thai bank...not use Transferwise as a middle man in this case.  Using a middle man to save Bt124 wouldn't be worth it to me....just one less issue to worry about.

The way I read it, transferwise charges a fee of US$288.94, but I don't see it in your calculations. What am I missing?

[caughtintheact]

I also use a USA credit union with Kbank in Thailand.  My last SWIFT was for $4000. I paid the credit union US$25 and Kbank deposited 125,203 into my account on a Monday (the money was in my account as soon as the bank opened the day after the credit union called me to confirm).  The XE conversion rate on that day was 31.29 but the amount deposited was equal to an exchange rate of 31.3, but I do not know what rate Kbank was using, but it seems to be a better deal than I would get with transferwise.  The rate for the previous Friday was 31.56 baht to the dollar which would have made the deposit amount 126,240, so Kbank charged me about B1000 or about $31, so I paid about $56 for the fee and the forex.

[Knick]

I us navy fed credit union

1 transfer to bangkok bank in ny by domestic transfer $14. The ny bank sends it to my local bangkok bank takes 1 day

[Pib]

1 hour ago, caughtintheact said:

The way I read it, transferwise charges a fee of US$288.94, but I don't see it in your calculations. What am I missing?

Their fee is shown in the Transferwise snapshot so I didn't mention it again....only needed to verbalize the fee not shown which would be the Domestic Wire fee from the OP's bank to Transferwise to fund the Transferwise transfer.

[Pib]

52 minutes ago, Knick said:

I us navy fed credit union

1 transfer to bangkok bank in ny by domestic transfer $14. The ny bank sends it to my local bangkok bank takes 1 day

Just to add some more detail, you are doing a Domestic "Wire" which NFCU charges $14 for.  As it flows thru the Bangkok Bank "NY" branch that branch will slice off their fee which is identical to the fee they charged for ACH Transfer when you could still do ACH transfers thru the NY branch.  The NY branch fee is shown below.  After slicing off their fee they relay the remaining about to your in-Thailand Bangkok Bank branch end who then use their TT Buying Rate to accomplish the exchange and then substract/apply their 0.25% (Bt200 min, Bt500 max) receiving fee.   Then the funds are posted to your acct.   See fee schedule at bottom. 

 

The two above mentioned Bangkok Bank fees are applied "before posting to your acct," therefore, they will not be shown anywhere on your ibanking statement or passbook.  This fools some folks into thinking no Bangkok Bank fees were applied but indeed the fees were applied.  Folks trying to use personal math to determine the exchange rate can never seem to find an exact exchange rate match on the Bangkok Bank exchange rate page because the fees were not considered/applied in the right order.   

 

However a person can signup for the Bangkok Bank free SMS Remittance Alert which will show the amount of funds arriving your in-Thailand branch (minus the NY branch fee), the exchange rate used, the receiving fee, and the final amount posting to your acct. 

 

 

[Jeffrey346]

Take a look at Western Union. I use them all the time. You can only send $5000 per transfer. Their exchange rate is competitive and they charge $2.99 per transfer if you use your debit card.

[Pib]

11 minutes ago, Jeffrey346 said:

Take a look at Western Union. I use them all the time. You can only send $5000 per transfer. Their exchange rate is competitive and they charge $2.99 per transfer if you use your debit card.

You know I tried them twice about 6 months ago for some small amounts and it was a pain.  Each time shortly after initiating the transfer online I got an email form them that I needed to call them within X-hours to confirm the transfer otherwise the transfer would be cancelled.   So, I called...did the confirmation and the funds arrived OK days later.  I used the ACH funding method where funds are pulled from my bank and WU took 4 business days to complete the transfer to my Thai bank acct...both times.  Yeap....low sending fee....pretty good exchange rate....but slow when using the ACH funding method.    The slowness and having to call both times to keep the transfer going turned me off. 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Pib

[DogNo1]

I think that it is no longer possible to transfer money to your local Bangkok Bank account using a USA domestic ACH to the NY branch of Bangkok Bank.  It is only possible if your bank supplies the additional information required for an International ACH.  There was a thread about this last year. You must now use a SWIFT transfer.

[Pib]

1 hour ago, caughtintheact said:

I also use a USA credit union with Kbank in Thailand.  My last SWIFT was for $4000. I paid the credit union US$25 and Kbank deposited 125,203 into my account on a Monday (the money was in my account as soon as the bank opened the day after the credit union called me to confirm).  The XE conversion rate on that day was 31.29 but the amount deposited was equal to an exchange rate of 31.3, but I do not know what rate Kbank was using, but it seems to be a better deal than I would get with transferwise.  The rate for the previous Friday was 31.56 baht to the dollar which would have made the deposit amount 126,240, so Kbank charged me about B1000 or about $31, so I paid about $56 for the fee and the forex.

What Monday and Friday (i.e., specific date) are you talking about....are you talking 12 Oct Monday and 9 Oct Friday or some other date?  I expect not based on the exchange rate/amounts you talked.

 

Kbank uses "their "TT Buying Rate" (they call it their Telex Transfer) for the exchange...most likely their opening rate for the day.  Their rates typically change a few times each day but for international transfers which typically arrive the bank during the O-dark early pre-open hours the Thai bank will then utilize their opening/1st rate for the day to accomplish the exchange and then post to your acct after they apply their 0.25% (Bt200 min, Bt500 max) receiving fee.

 

https://kasikornbank.com/en/Rate/Pages/Foreign-Exchange.aspx

 

 

 

[Pib]

Just now, DogNo1 said:

I think that it is no longer possible to transfer money to your local Bangkok Bank account using a USA domestic ACH to the NY branch of Bangkok Bank.  It is only possible if your bank supplies the additional information required for an International ACH.  There was a thread about this last year. You must now use a SWIFT transfer.

Correct...no-can use ACH anymore for a personal bank transfers to your in-Thailand Bangkok Bank branch unless your US bank/CU uses ACH "IAT" format, which none of them use....they use ACH "Domestic" format.  ACH Domestic format is for transfers not to leave the US....ACH IAT format is for funds that will leave the US.   

 

Bangkok Bank NY can no longer allow ACH Domestic format for relay outside the US except for US Govt payments like from social security, military retirement, VA, etc.  The US Govt is basically wavering itself from the ACH IAT requirement for now....until all its payment agencies can complete update of their payment systems to utilize ACH IAT format for ACH payments going outside the US....some govt agencies can already use IAT format; some can not.  

 

However, you can still do a "Domestic Wire", repeat, Wire using the Bangkok Bank NY routing number and your in-Thailand Bangkok Bank account branch.  The NY branch will relay the funds just like they did for ACH transfers from your US bank/CU/brokerage.

[caughtintheact]

43 minutes ago, Pib said:

What Monday and Friday (i.e., specific date) are you talking about....are you talking 12 Oct Monday and 9 Oct Friday or some other date?  I expect not based on the exchange rate/amounts you talked.

 

 

 

 

 

2 and 5 October

Edited October 16, 2020 by caughtintheact

[Pib]

1 hour ago, caughtintheact said:

2 and 5 October

K-bank's opening TT Buying Rate for 2 Oct and 5 Oct, respectively, was 31.41 and 31.38, respectively.  Assuming your got the 5 Oct 31.38 opening rate since they deposited the funds on 5 Oct then $4000 times 31.38 gives Bt125,520.  Bt125,520 times 0.25% gives Bt313.80 receiving fee.  Bt125,520 minus Bt313.80 ends up with Bt125.206.20.  This is very, very close to what you said earlier that Kbank deposited Bt125,203.  

 

Now if using Transferwise as a comparison since they use a mid-market rate, on 5 Oct their rate changed quite a bit throughout the day/24 hours....started off at around 31.57 and dropped through their 24 hour business day to around 31.27. 

 

Kbank rates also changed....they changed 12 times during their 8.5 hour business day....opening/0830/1st rate was 31.38....2nd rate a few hours later 31.35 and then the 3rd/final rate for the day was 31.26 at 4:58pm.

 

And doing a very accurate apples-to-apples exchange rate comparison between mid market rates like Transferwise uses and Thai bank TT Buying rates would also require adjustment for the time differences when a person looks up past rates.   A more accurate comparison would have been for me to use a K-bank 5 Oct rate as did above but for for Transferwise probably use their rate of around late 4 Oct which was pretty stable at 31.57 since it was a Sunday when FX markets are very stable.   

Edited October 16, 2020 by Pib

[Max69xl]

TransferWise isn't the best choice when it comes to amounts like 49,000 USD. It doesn't matter if the exchange rate is better. For monthly transfers like pension, then it's totally ok. 

[rucker4012]

Research BAHTNET transfer. No fee. Minimal difference on exchange rate. Done in less than 1 day. There may be a daily limit. I do it monthly from USA bank to my Bangkok Bank account

[Pib]

32 minutes ago, rucker4012 said:

Research BAHTNET transfer. No fee. Minimal difference on exchange rate. Done in less than 1 day. There may be a daily limit. I do it monthly from USA bank to my Bangkok Bank account

Bahtnet is primarily a "domestic/inter Thailand" transfer system although it does interface with the SWIFT system on the Thailand end.    Since it interfaces with SWIFT on the Thailand end it's not uncommon for the last leg of an incoming foreign transfer to possibly use Bahtnet....but that only occurs if the foreign bank has a relationship with Bahtnet.   

 

When you say you do it monthly from a USA bank to your Bangkok Bank acct I expect you really mean the coding on your Bangkok Bank acct shows Bahtnet in the description and BTN/BNT coding versus International Transfer and  FTT coding.  And that Bahtnet Description/Coding is showing because your USA bank is using transfer routing that uses Bahtnet for the final leg of the transfer...the intra-Thailand final leg.

 

And Bahtnet usage is more typical when the "sending bank/entity" did the currency exchange outside Thailand/when initially sending the money.  I sure hope you are not allowing your USA bank to accomplish the currency conversion on their sending end as western banks exchange rates for baht is lower than Thai bank exchange rates....it like an indirect fee at your expense.   

 

And some money transfer services like OFX will use Bahtnet for the final leg of the transfer into Thailand since OFX has already accomplished the currency conversion before sending. 

 

Ditto for people who receive their monthly U.S. Social Security and VA pension sent via the "International Direct Deposit (IDD)" program where Citibank is under contract with those govt organizations to accomplish the exchange outside of Thailand....US dollars are not sent but Thai baht....and Citibank uses Bahtnet for the final leg of that money payment/transfer.  

 

Use of Bahtnet doesn't affect the exchange rate as it just the transfer system....the banks which use Bahtnet will set the exchange rate whether the money flows over Bahtnet or some other transfer system of which there are many.   And like I mentioned above if the exchange happenned outside Thailand then the funds hitting the Bahtnet system may have been already in baht versus dollars.

 

And there are fees in using Bahtnet....these will be on-top of any fees in getting the funds into Thailand.  Below is a snapshot of K-bank Bahtnet fees which are pretty standard for all Thail banks.

 

https://kasikornbank.com/en/personal/services/payment/Pages/bahtnet.aspx

 

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Pib

[geworthomd]

I use domestic wire transfer from my bank to Bangkok Bank in New York. In the instructions box at the bottom I just put the particulars of the Bangkok Bank /account number etc. i have done this so so many times without a single hickup

[Jeffrey346]

21 hours ago, Pib said:

You know I tried them twice about 6 months ago for some small amounts and it was a pain.  Each time shortly after initiating the transfer online I got an email form them that I needed to call them within X-hours to confirm the transfer otherwise the transfer would be cancelled.   So, I called...did the confirmation and the funds arrived OK days later.  I used the ACH funding method where funds are pulled from my bank and WU took 4 business days to complete the transfer to my Thai bank acct...both times.  Yeap....low sending fee....pretty good exchange rate....but slow when using the ACH funding method.    The slowness and having to call both times to keep the transfer going turned me off. 

I never use ACH.. always used my debit card and received the funds usually the next day 2 days at the most..

Now my back notified me I can use my debit card here in Thailand at any ATM that ia a Visa or Visa Plus, [which most are]  with no fees. If I allow my US bank to do the conversion, the rates are very competitive.  So I have been using ATM's for 3/4 months now.. I like no waiting.. money in my hand...lol 

Edited October 17, 2020 by Jeffrey346

[fceligoj]

It looks like you are only considering the immediate impact on your funds by doing such a large transfer.  You need to consider Thai taxes on your amount in bank saving account.  They are now withdrawing taxes directly from one's account.  (So, what I do is transfer to my wife's account where they do not withdraw taxes and keep a small amount in my account.)  The 2nd item is the USG's FBAR/FATCA reporting requirement.  If any foreign account exceeds $10,000 at any time during the year, one has to report it.  (In this case, I make sure my Thai bank account is always less than $10,000 equivalent.  Also, if you plan on send that large amount at one time, I would almost guarantee your US bank will "Red Flag" that transaction and report it to the USG.  Good Luck.  Oh yes, I always use Transferwise and the monthly method for renewing my extension.

[Pib]

49 minutes ago, fceligoj said:

 Also, if you plan on send that large amount at one time, I would almost guarantee your US bank will "Red Flag" that transaction and report it to the USG.  Good Luck.  Oh yes, I always use Transferwise and the monthly method for renewing my extension.

A myth....they don't flag a transfer as suspicious just because you are sending a large amount to Thailand.   I've sent over $200K and $50K when buying a house/dirt/car here in Thailand....not one question asked (or any flags) on the US bank sending or Thai bank receiving end.  Just list the legal reason for sending and you'll be fine.