SURVEY: Digital Nomads--Good for Thailand or not?

[Chris.B]

14 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

No they should pay tax in the country they are working and living in.

 

You mean like Amazon ?

[Jack Hna]

Weird how the mention of tax seems to be propping up the Not part of this question.

 

This idea is flawed anyway. Just open up the STV for long term purposes do not worry about the how and get people in long term, deal/react with the minor problems later. 

[DrTuner]

11 hours ago, Jack Hna said:

Weird how the mention of tax seems to be propping up the Not part of this question.

It's the usual socialist mindset. They want to get their paws in somebody else's wallet. It's always 20-40% of the population, at least. In Thailand you'll find them in the form of somchais bumming off smokes or laukhao.

[yellowboat]

On 10/23/2020 at 10:19 AM, FritsSikkink said:

No they should pay tax in the country they are working and living in.

Tax on what?  On income?   How is that even tabulated if their business is not located in Thailand and no transactions take place in Thailand?  Many Thai businesses have offshore accounts to avoid taxes.   Why would a diginomad do something a Thai is trying to avoid?     

[heist]

I love that the mere mention of the phrase 'digital nomad' suddenly makes everyone an instant expert in international tax law. 

[Mung]

It's mainly elderly folk who fail to grasp the notion that digital nomads bring money into the Thai economy. Like with any sector of life, you will have tiers of value - digital nomads are no different. There will be those earn a tiny amount, maybe enough to barely get by, all the way up to those earning millions monthly, and everything else in between. Stating that digital nomads are a bad thing for Thailand, is like saying any sector of work or income is bad for Thailand - it's moronic. Those who state this are either ignorant (wilfully or not) or simply lying.

[Mung]

On 10/23/2020 at 3:19 AM, FritsSikkink said:

No they should pay tax in the country they are working and living in.

Ignorant viewpoint. Americans need to pay tax back to the US wherever the are in the world. Heck, even people who are not a US national, yet move to the US and become part of an organisation, will need to pay tax back to the US if they move overseas. Yet the US cannot seem to muster enough for free medical care (those F15s and missiles cost a pretty penny, but that is a story for another day). Many other nations such as the UK do not require that their citizens pay tax back to their homeland if they work overseas; do your research. 

[FritsSikkink]

3 minutes ago, Mung said:

Ignorant viewpoint. Americans need to pay tax back to the US wherever the are in the world. Heck, even people who are not a US national, yet move to the US and become part of an organisation, will need to pay tax back to the US if they move overseas. Yet the US cannot seem to muster enough for free medical care (those F15s and missiles cost a pretty penny, but that is a story for another day). Many other nations such as the UK do not require that their citizens pay tax back to their homeland if they work overseas; do your research. 

You do your research, if you live longer than 180 days a year here and in many other countries, you are a tax resident. If you have a problem with that, you shouldn't work here. 

Edited October 24, 2020 by FritsSikkink

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, yellowboat said:

Tax on what?  On income?   How is that even tabulated if their business is not located in Thailand and no transactions take place in Thailand?  Many Thai businesses have offshore accounts to avoid taxes.   Why would a diginomad do something a Thai is trying to avoid?     

Income tax, which anyone living in Thailand needs to pay if they earn more than a certain amount.

[2530Ubon]

22 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Income tax, which anyone living in Thailand needs to pay if they earn more than a certain amount.

As soon as they provide a visa / extension of stay for the purpose of working remotely / online legally, i'll happily get a tax ID and pay into the system.

 

Until then, i'll continue earning, tax free, each month and spending it as i see fit.

[yellowboat]

2 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

Income tax, which anyone living in Thailand needs to pay if they earn more than a certain amount.

They don't.  Thais, when they make money overseas, do not pay taxes.  They have accounts in Hong Kong or Singapore where they keep their money.  The Chinese and Taiwanese do it too.  Why should you as a foreigner pay taxes that Thais don't pay?    Next you will be saying two tier pricing is fair. 

[yellowboat]

2 hours ago, 2530Ubon said:

As soon as they provide a visa / extension of stay for the purpose of working remotely / online legally, i'll happily get a tax ID and pay into the system.

 

Until then, i'll continue earning, tax free, each month and spending it as i see fit.

In a sense, you are paying taxes on your accommodation and every time you buy a beer at 7/11.     If your customers are not in Thailand and your company is not set up in Thailand, then what is the point?   And your right, if you are not getting anything from the military controlled government, then why pay them?

[ehgnyc]

Trying to decide who will spend the most money is futile. I met a retiree who said he cooks for himself and spends about 60 baht a day. A manager of a very nice restaurant in Lamei on Samui told me he misses the big tables of backpackers who at least once during their stay would come in for a big night out and spend. He also said that some of the resort customers came in and drank bottled water with dinner, and then went back to their bungalows for cocktails. And then there are the Chinese who pay everything upfront before they even leave China. The successful digital nomads I've met are in the spending category. It's easier to spend it while it's coming in. But I'm sure there are plenty who live on street food and beers from the 7-Eleven. In other words, trying to guess who will spend the most is just guesswork.

[n00dle]

On 10/19/2020 at 3:28 PM, Alex80 said:

I would be happy to work and pay taxes in thailand. Unfortunately I can't register as freelancer.

This is where we differ. I am a freelancer and cannot say I would be happy to pay taxes anywhere.

[Pilotman]

6 minutes ago, n00dle said:

This is where we differ. I am a freelancer and cannot say I would be happy to pay taxes anywhere.

indeed, but you benefit from others who do pay tax, in infrastructure, defence, security and the availability of uni trained professionals the world over, including those who developed the technology you use to make a living. People who pay no tax to any society are parasites, feeding off others. 

[recom273]

Why do digital nomads want to settle in Thailand?

 

Because it’s cheap and they can spend the rest of the time playing around on tinder.

 

They can pay peanuts for one of the numerous decent short let apartments in a decent area of the city and there are ways to game the visa system.

 

I would presume, payment is deposited to a country where they benefit the most, I would suggest only a small amount of most digital nomads wage enters the country, while a clever nomad will be investing the remainder. Tracking the funds would also present an issue for authorities as payment is often via a third party.

 

Actually as it stands, I hear Thailand is a great place to hold cash - because no questions are asked, I hear Australian and NZ banks have to inform the tax agencies when overseas income reaches a certain threshold. 
 

The reality that these nomads would live on a desert island and do a bit of work between long walks on the beach is a long way from reality. It’s usually heads down to make as much cash as possible, working unsociable hours to fit in with other countries timezones and scheduling.

 

Why would any government encourage this? 
 

 

 

 

[n00dle]

33 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

indeed, but you benefit from others who do pay tax, in infrastructure, defence, security and the availability of uni trained professionals the world over, including those who developed the technology you use to make a living. People who pay no tax to any society are parasites, feeding off others. 

Ah a more self-righteous response could not have been expected.

 

Where does it say I pay no tax? Imsee evidence of taxes I pay with almost every transaction.

 

And where would you have me pay those taxes, in a country where my money is not earned, or in the country where i don't live? Note: my money comes from several countries, none of them my "home" country.

 

I have not set foot in my home country for more than 1-2 months total in 15 years, though I am taxed on assets there.

 

Universities recieve revenue for patents they develop. They also recieve private funding for research and last I checked, tuition is expected if you wish to receive an education.

 

My now paid off student loans certainly indicate that my education was not free.

 

Last I checked I pay for my electricity and water as well as rent for where I live. I do believe there is a thai citizen who should be be taxed on that income. There is certainly a tax on the utilities.

 

I pay for my internet and mobile phone, also taxed.

 

Most items I purchase are taxed, fuel, food, supplies etc, I pay fees when I drive on an expressway etc.

 

I pay school fees for my child who attends a private school. They are also taxed. 

 

My garbage collection results in a bill, I cant remember how often.

 

Most things I import are taxed.

 

I pay for my own medical insurance, and trestment i receive is taxed.

 

Sadly I smoke, taxed.

 

I guess it could be argued I pay taxes.

 

As for defence/securtiy spending, if ever there were a reason to opt out of paying tax, that may be it. Thankfully I am not American, and my home country sees defense and security somewhat differently to many countries.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by n00dle

[n00dle]

17 minutes ago, recom273 said:

Why do digital nomads want to settle in Thailand?

 

Because it’s cheap and they can spend the rest of the time playing around on tinder.

 

They can pay peanuts for one of the numerous decent short let apartments in a decent area of the city and there are ways to game the visa system.

 

I would presume, payment is deposited to a country where they benefit the most, I would suggest only a small amount of most digital nomads wage enters the country, while a clever nomad will be investing the remainder. Tracking the funds would also present an issue for authorities as payment is often via a third party.

 

Actually as it stands, I hear Thailand is a great place to hold cash - because no questions are asked, I hear Australian and NZ banks have to inform the tax agencies when overseas income reaches a certain threshold. 
 

The reality that these nomads would live on a desert island and do a bit of work between long walks on the beach is a long way from reality. It’s usually heads down to make as much cash as possible, working unsociable hours to fit in with other countries timezones and scheduling.

 

Why would any government encourage this? 
 

 

 

 

 

First of all the whole digital nomad moniker is misleading at best. I freelance, I am not living in a van or on a sailboat documenting my life on youtube or instagram, though a sailboat would be nice.

 

Nor am I nomadic, but I do work from home, or while I travel.

 

Most digital nomads are not nomadic, they tend to settle down somewhere to get stuff done. Its nearly impossibe to get anything done while you are moving around.

 

Im also wondering if these nomads you describe have their heads down working unsociable hours, or if they are on tinder,  surely it isnt both?

 

I have clients in australia, us, and europe. A conference call to any of those places is easily acheived within reasonable hours. The work is done whenever i feel most productive, usually between the hours of 9 and 5, though I will admit if I cannot sleep or am feeling inspired, I can be found working anytime.

[PremiumLane]

Old moaning boomers in Thailand don't like the idea of young people getting even half the benefits or help they got back in their day.... shock horror

[n00dle]

7 minutes ago, PremiumLane said:

Old moaning boomers in Thailand don't like the idea of young people getting even half the benefits or help they got back in their day.... shock horror

As for benefits, I can expect none from my home country, I have been gone far too long to be eligible.

 

What gets me is the phrase "happy to pay tax"

 

How much of the koolaid do you have to drink before you become content to give hundred of thousands of dollars away over the course of your lifetime for services you dont recieve?

 

 

[2530Ubon]

15 minutes ago, n00dle said:

How much of the koolaid do you have to drink before you become content to give hundred of thousands of dollars away over the course of your lifetime for services you dont recieve?

 

 

I'd say a bit above tight a#s and a little below pretentious git is just about the right amount.

Edited October 25, 2020 by 2530Ubon

[recom273]

1 hour ago, n00dle said:

W

First of all the whole digital nomad moniker is misleading at best. I freelance, I am not living in a van or on a sailboat documenting my life on youtube or instagram, though a sailboat would be nice.

 

Nor am I nomadic, but I do work from home, or while I travel.

 

Most digital nomads are not nomadic, they tend to settle down somewhere to get stuff done. Its nearly impossibe to get anything done while you are moving around.

 

Im also wondering if these nomads you describe have their heads down working unsociable hours, or if they are on tinder,  surely it isnt both?

 

I have clients in australia, us, and europe. A conference call to any of those places is easily acheived within reasonable hours. The work is done whenever i feel most productive, usually between the hours of 9 and 5, though I will admit if I cannot sleep or am feeling inspired, I can be found working anytime.

Yes, agreed, it was a wide ranging and encompassing assumption. Sorry to offend, I know and appreciate that are a lot of professional freelance online workers who just happen to find themselves in Thailand, but could just as well be in any country in the world.
 

I too am an online worker and share the same ideas as you. A day or days doing a border run or moving countries is an expensive day. I have an non-O visa, I would have no problems paying tax to the government, but I would also like something in return. A bit of professional courtesy from immigration would be nice, the ability to open a bank account without pleading to a manager, the ability to move funds out of the country,  etc.

 

I just feel the people who would rush to take a digital nomad visa would be the kind of person who don’t have the funds or initiative to pursue other methods. For instance the kind of nomads that post that they feel that Thai visa laws are unfair, they are “miwyonaires” but they can’t afford an elite visa, maybe it’s unfair to say that these could be the guys that are abusing the volunteer visa at the moment,

 

The unsociable hours I’m talking about - if you are working in the states, you are more or less working opposite hours, so that 9.00 am meeting is 9.00 PM in Bangkok. If you are working in the UK market, you could end up working late into the evening - agreed. I enjoy a leisurely day and my day starts at 2.00 - 3.00 p.m - I sometimes feel that I don’t have enough time to enjoy the day before I put on a shirt, even though I’m wearing a pair of shorts under the desk. I know a lot of ‘nomads are also pushing the limits, they will work all the time with one eye on their portfolio and savings account with a view to early retiremet.
 

I would suggest you enjoy a regular working week, as a freelance worker - you just do it in a different country. Thats great! - however I feel you are an exception to the rule. I really don’t think the country will benefit from a “digital nomad” visa.

[yellowboat]

21 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

You do your research, if you live longer than 180 days a year here and in many other countries, you are a tax resident. If you have a problem with that, you shouldn't work here. 

And yet Thai businesses will use their offshore businesses to avoid paying Thai taxes.  So you think farangs should pay where Thais do not?   It depends on where the business is set up.      

[Pilotman]

3 hours ago, n00dle said:

Ah a more self-righteous response could not have been expected.

 

Where does it say I pay no tax? Imsee evidence of taxes I pay with almost every transaction.

 

And where would you have me pay those taxes, in a country where my money is not earned, or in the country where i don't live? Note: my money comes from several countries, none of them my "home" country.

 

I have not set foot in my home country for more than 1-2 months total in 15 years, though I am taxed on assets there.

 

Universities recieve revenue for patents they develop. They also recieve private funding for research and last I checked, tuition is expected if you wish to receive an education.

 

My now paid off student loans certainly indicate that my education was not free.

 

Last I checked I pay for my electricity and water as well as rent for where I live. I do believe there is a thai citizen who should be be taxed on that income. There is certainly a tax on the utilities.

 

I pay for my internet and mobile phone, also taxed.

 

Most items I purchase are taxed, fuel, food, supplies etc, I pay fees when I drive on an expressway etc.

 

I pay school fees for my child who attends a private school. They are also taxed. 

 

My garbage collection results in a bill, I cant remember how often.

 

Most things I import are taxed.

 

I pay for my own medical insurance, and trestment i receive is taxed.

 

Sadly I smoke, taxed.

 

I guess it could be argued I pay taxes.

 

As for defence/securtiy spending, if ever there were a reason to opt out of paying tax, that may be it. Thankfully I am not American, and my home country sees defense and security somewhat differently to many countries.

 

 

 

 

You said it my friend. You are trying to justify the indefensibly.  As you must know very well, we are talking here  of direct taxation not indirect, discretionary taxation. 

[recom273]

2 hours ago, n00dle said:

 

What gets me is the phrase "happy to pay tax"

 

How much of the koolaid do you have to drink before you become content to give hundred of thousands of dollars away over the course of your lifetime for services you dont recieve?

 

Have you ever paid income tax here? I didn’t get the intense burning feeling in my backside as I did in the UK. 
 

If something was received in return, then why shouldn’t people contribute? that would include entitlement to visa renewal instead of attending local immigration every year with cap, that would include government health care  -  There’s no such thing as a free lunch, and that goes both ways - another reason I am against this digital nomad visa, it would be a one way street.

 

I’m happier to pay directly rather than the money that’s taken by Thai companies with no tax receipts under the pretense that it’s being paid on your behalf.

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, yellowboat said:

And yet Thai businesses will use their offshore businesses to avoid paying Thai taxes.  So you think farangs should pay where Thais do not?   It depends on where the business is set up.      

You don't have a proper business, just working on your own.

[FritsSikkink]

19 hours ago, yellowboat said:

In a sense, you are paying taxes on your accommodation and every time you buy a beer at 7/11.     If your customers are not in Thailand and your company is not set up in Thailand, then what is the point?   And your right, if you are not getting anything from the military controlled government, then why pay them?

You get nothing? Don't use the roads and other infrastructure, get real

[FritsSikkink]

21 hours ago, 2530Ubon said:

As soon as they provide a visa / extension of stay for the purpose of working remotely / online legally, i'll happily get a tax ID and pay into the system.

 

Until then, i'll continue earning, tax free, each month and spending it as i see fit.

Hope you get caught an deported like the other freeloaders

Edited October 25, 2020 by FritsSikkink

[yellowboat]

13 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

You get nothing? Don't use the roads and other infrastructure, get real

Yes what you pay in taxes covers  you walking on crappy Bangkok sidewalks.    All other infrastructure you pay to use.   You take a motorcycle taxi, you pay.    You turn on the tap or the light, you pay for that.   It is a silly notion and completely unenforceable.   

[yellowboat]

20 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

You don't have a proper business, just working on your own.

Then why am I paying taxes, business license fees and for accounting services?    There are times I wish your snotty little remark was true.