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Water Heater AGAIN! Any Ideas?


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I have 2 multipoint 3 phase water heaters. On the hot setting it uses the 3 phases to heat the water elements (bit frightening to see 18 Amps/phase when in use).

Twas the electrician who wired my place suggestion. 

So I suppose if I'm crazy enough to have a gas log fire, I'm crazy enough to have some 3 phase water heaters. Really hot, hot water though. Keeps wifey happy. 🙂

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Whilst I agree with the rest of your post, this statement is untrue.   The electric water heater is one of the few appliances where almost 100% of the energy input ends up as useful energy o

Ah yes, another job by Bodge-it, Bu99er-it and Scarper Engineering ltd.   The two diagrams are sufficiently similar that you ought to be able to make it work with the 10k element and the 8k

That, seems like a very good idea! 🙂 

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5 minutes ago, carlyai said:

I have 2 multipoint 3 phase water heaters. On the hot setting it uses the 3 phases to heat the water elements (bit frightening to see 18 Amps/phase when in use).

Twas the electrician who wired my place suggestion. 

So I suppose if I'm crazy enough to have a gas log fire, I'm crazy enough to have some 3 phase water heaters. Really hot, hot water though. Keeps wifey happy. 🙂

I got a 5/15 connection to the house ... single phase . I do not want to change the electric just to have hot water . I can do just fine with 1 aircon and a 5/15 meter . I can surely see the advantage of having electric heater , even doubt about it when my previous started leaking ( possibly my fault ) after 9y . Its so much easier to find electric types , but the scalding hot water if i wanted without changing a single thing was way too attractive . Gas i use for cooking anyways , so i got a gas bottle already , only a splitter is extra .

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18 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Would you mind sharing details of your heaters?

 

Many of us like loads of hot water and are on weak electrical supplies (is there any other kind here?).

 

Gas is a good way forwards if this is you.

Gas Heater is made by Hitachi and bought in Thailand. As it was less than $100 I assume it was made in Thailand. This was a very good investment and strongly recommend gas hot water heaters. The water is hot instantly. No waiting. It uses 2 D cell batteries for the ignition. Gas will not enter the heater unless the batteries are working to fire the heater. 

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21 hours ago, Formaleins said:

You can buy them on Lazada, but they don't look that safe from what I have seen. Flu's and venting being the least of my concerns, but I stand to be corrected.

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/jk-i955018341-s2012788785.html?spm=a2o4m.searchlist.list.2.99ca48a4h6klQD&search=1

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/haite-i960782028-s2040476923.html?spm=a2o4m.searchlist.list.4.99ca48a4h6klQD&search=1

This looks like a good gas water heater to me. With the starting system on most heaters they are safe.

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Anyone with a gas water heater should install a CO detector even if their heater is "well ventilated". They are cheap, one of many :-  https://www.lazada.co.th/products/2in1-smoke-detector-carbon-monoxide-detector-lcd-screen-sound-warning-high-sensor-home-security-i1090676609-s2471450014.html 

 

An earth leak on an electric heater will trip your RCD (most heaters have one built in too).

On a gas heater you can smell a gas leak even if the flame failure device doesn't operate.

 

CO from incomplete combustion is colourless, odourless and deadly, it is a silent killer. Every year we read about holidaymakers in Europe being killed by badly installed gas heaters, let's avoid having these in Thailand.

 

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46 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Anyone with a gas water heater should install a CO detector even if their heater is "well ventilated". They are cheap, one of many :-  https://www.lazada.co.th/products/2in1-smoke-detector-carbon-monoxide-detector-lcd-screen-sound-warning-high-sensor-home-security-i1090676609-s2471450014.html 

 

An earth leak on an electric heater will trip your RCD (most heaters have one built in too).

On a gas heater you can smell a gas leak even if the flame failure device doesn't operate.

 

CO from incomplete combustion is colourless, odourless and deadly, it is a silent killer. Every year we read about holidaymakers in Europe being killed by badly installed gas heaters, let's avoid having these in Thailand.

 

Only problem is it has batteries. Some people (like my sister) takes the batteries out because the alarm goes off when she burns some cooking because of the smoke. Some brothers do have them.

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23 hours ago, Formaleins said:

You can buy them on Lazada, but they don't look that safe from what I have seen. Flu's and venting being the least of my concerns, but I stand to be corrected.

This post caught my attention because there are many of these cheap water heaters for sale at our local trade markets. I am told they are quite reliable but have been known to discharge hot water that could scald and explode if the gas valve fails to close. Must be installed outside.

 

Most are poor copies of Japanese products like Rinnai but sadly many do not having the same level of safety devices fitted.

 

How they work.

A battery powered electronic module detects water flow from a simple switch, starts a spark igniter, opens a gas valve and waits for flame rod signal. If flame is not detected within preset time a flame fail lockout occurs. Fixed gas pressure and water flow sets the output temperature. 


Level of overheat safety protection varies with some models having none on the heat exchanger.

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On 10/19/2020 at 7:19 AM, Crossy said:

 

Whilst I agree with the rest of your post, this statement is untrue.

 

The electric water heater is one of the few appliances where almost 100% of the energy input ends up as useful energy output (in the hot water).

 

Gas heaters are very effective, but try holding your hand over the exhaust to see just how much energy (>40% for a really good heater) is not going into the water.

 

EDIT Also, without proper installation / ventilation they can be silently deadly (carbon monoxide poisoning). If you don't already have them I would install CO alarms.

 

No question that all your points are correct. It's common for people to think electric heat is inefficient. I wonder how they deal with the anomaly of incandescent light bulbs generating so much heat for so little light. I've used light bulbs as heaters in seed germination boxes and even in small temperature chambers for experiments. 

 

However I must add that electric water heaters use a single heating element, which is easily replaceable. This element can, and definitely will with my hard water, become coated with mineral deposits which are poor conductors of heat and finally leads to corrosion of the element jacket, possibly tripping a GFI breaker.

 

To be fair has gas water heaters have the same problem in worse ways. The mineral scale coats the bottom of the tank and is not easily removed without dismounting the tank and mechanically knocking the scale out; usually not worth the trouble. 

Entropy is a harsh mistress. 

 

The dangers of gas heaters make them a poor choice if you can use electric. I have a electric tank heater on my house that feed the sink and shower in two bathrooms. After using the wall mounted on-demand units in a previous rental house I think I prefer them for the shower. 

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3 hours ago, Crossy said:

Anyone with a gas water heater should install a CO detector even if their heater is "well ventilated". They are cheap, one of many :-  https://www.lazada.co.th/products/2in1-smoke-detector-carbon-monoxide-detector-lcd-screen-sound-warning-high-sensor-home-security-i1090676609-s2471450014.html 

 

An earth leak on an electric heater will trip your RCD (most heaters have one built in too).

On a gas heater you can smell a gas leak even if the flame failure device doesn't operate.

 

CO from incomplete combustion is colourless, odourless and deadly, it is a silent killer. Every year we read about holidaymakers in Europe being killed by badly installed gas heaters, let's avoid having these in Thailand.

 

Well i can tell you what the symptoms are if concentrations arent that big (?) 

Your heart will start to pound you wil feel it. You feel not comfortable, slightly headache.

I knew something was wrong with me, thought it was just me, but luckily i had someone with me so asked if she was ok. No she didnt. Then fast i jumped into conclusion for heater, switched it off and opened all windows, doors. left it off and checked next day.  We did better then. Weird, flames were burning nice blue. 

Later on find out , the central exhaust was blocked. As there were more apartments connected to that central exhaust. Only i was on top floor, closest to the exhaust. So i got everything in my apartment.

CO, CO2. They had to brake open the exhaust (stone) and took 2 bags of twigs and other stuff out of it.

Exhaust not protected from stuff getting in. 

 

You say a sensor, guess 2 is better. 1 on top and 1 below and the 1 extra for gas, below the device.

The sensors getting old and maybe polluted, and or saturated. So testing maybe every 3-4 months would be wise. With a cigarette you will know fast and also with a lighter, the gas sensor.

Depending in which area the sensors are, determines the life of the sensors. Oil drops or dust in the air doesnt make it better for the sensors.

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On 10/19/2020 at 2:13 PM, Formaleins said:

Thanks for your suggestions. I think it is working safely now, I have temporarily fixed the thermostat with a cable tie and a screw, will keep an eye on it. Yes, the schematics are poor, no colour coding at all. Makes sense regarding the 6 wire to 4 wire PCB, the 8KW is useless and lights up both LEDS even when the switch is off (seems dependant solely on the flow switch)  the 10KW unit is much better. it alternates the LED's to let you know what is running, i.e top LED alone is Low, bottom LED alone is MED and both LED's is HI. Flow control actually kills power to everything, regardless of power setting. The second switch is part of the rotary,  it is a block of 3 separate switches with dual connections on the live side, there are no other switches inside. The heater is grounded, feeds are 8mm or maybe 10mm, it has two RCBO's internally and one of those 50 Amp  "Test" button type breakers from Schneider on the consumer panel, which is again protected by a 100 A "test" button type main safety (Schneider) to cover the consumer unit, and then a mechanical 100 Amp physical breaker to cut off the entire supply. There are four thermostats, 1 is the 60C stat on the output pipe from the hot water, it is self resetting, The other three thermal cut outs are to protect the heating elements, these do not trigger until it reaches 98C, and you have yo open the unit and manually reset them.

Shame really that Panasonic cut costs the way they did with this unit as the 10KW was a solid reliable piece of kit. I won't ever buy another one, I will be replacing this with individual shower units from now on.

Ok the test buttons should indicate a RCBO, it switches with a difference of 30 mA between L and N.

You also say , it's grounded, hope ground is good fixed.

Flow control switches all, ok again schematic sucks totally then.

A common tyrap could hold for a while, but keep your eye on it and try to fix it in good way.

The heat will make it older faster and then it crumbles.

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12 hours ago, xtrnuno41 said:

A common tyrap could hold for a while, but keep your eye on it and try to fix it in good way.

The heat will make it older faster and then it crumbles.

 

Good point. Your local custom exhaust place should have stainless steel ones for a more permanent fix.

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