"The Stranded": Highlighting the plight of expats unable to return to Thailand: #4 Injustice for property owners

[webfact]

"The Stranded": Highlighting the plight of expats unable to return to Thailand: #4 Injustice for property owners 

 

File photo: REUTERS

 

Thaivisa continues our series of articles about people who are desperate to get back to their lives, loved ones and possessions in Thailand but who are stranded abroad. 

 

Recently we published a story about one expat who went back to his birthplace earlier in the year then found himself unable to return. We asked for other people in similar situations to come forward and share their stories. 

 

We continue to be overwhelmed with replies from people who want to be heard.

 

Some are angry at the way they have been treated and question the attitude of the Thai authorities to people who have invested heavily in Thailand in good faith.

 

One such group is the large number of people who have bought property and deposited money in Thai banks and who now have no access to the first, perhaps even the second. 

 

Among others, we have spoken to 60-year-old retirees who sold up in Switzerland, a wealthy couple from the Netherlands, an expat from Northern Ireland and a British retiree and his wife as well as another man who can’t get at money in a Thai bank used for a visa extension.

 

They feel let down and angry. They are stranded and getting increasingly desperate even considering quitting Thailand when the pandemic is over, such is their growing ill feeling to a country they feel deserted them and is placing onerous obstacles in their paths. 

 

(Examples are here)

 

They have seen stories with Thai officials promising special visas and privileges to Elite card holders and people who invest in the property market in the future. They have already bought property, they say, and feel these schemes are a slap in the face when they should be helped to return “home”.

 

We intend to take their stories forward to contacts in the upper levels of Thai government in an effort to prompt the authorities to help them return and resume lives that are beneficial to the Thai economy and the country's people.

 

Mr and Mrs I and J:

 

"We are both 60 and have been together 30 years. We  moved to Thailand 2 years ago buying a very beautiful condo in Hua Hin and gave up everything here in Switzerland. 

 

"We feel both at home in Thailand. We love the country, culture and people. 

 

"Our life is now in Thailand. I am active in several charity projects. I love to give something back to Thailand. We have many Thai friends.

 

"We went back to Switzerland, because my mother in law was in intensive care after a heart attack. We understood it might be tricky getting back but never imagined it would be this bad.

"Firstly we were staying with friends in Switzerland albeit having to live out of a suitcase. Now we are obliged to rent an expensive apartment but it is not home.

 

"I feel very sad and disappointed about our situation. Unwelcome in Thailand because non-imm. "O" cannot enter anymore. There were days of hope that the government would let us in and then disappointment". 

 

Representations to embassies in Bangkok, Basel and Munich have all failed to get solutions. They booked flights but after the goalposts changed had to cancel and start visa application processes again.

 

"They just told me, it can take 3 to 10 weeks to get the new visa and then another 10 days for COE. 

 

"I feel kind of abused, misunderstood and abandoned. So at the moment I am very frustrated and angry, since I cannot plan properly. Life in Switzerland is good but very expensive. Our home is in Hua Hin and we want to go back as soon as possible. We spend a good amount every month there.

 

Switzerland is not our home, it’s Thailand now.

Mr K said:

 

"I left Phuket in July due to the death of my mother in the UK.  My wife and I (67 and 64 year olds) have had retirement visas since 2008 and we moved to Phuket in 2006.

 

We are on our 3rd residence and have over 10m invested this way through a Thai company, in which we are directors/shareholders."

 

He bought a villa and condo in 2004 both of which he subsequently sold. In 2015 he sold another condo and bought a duplex just before the pandemic began. He said he spends about a million baht annually and has 800,000 baht in the bank in Thailand to cover visa requirements.

 

"I applied last week to come back via the O-A Visa rule, but was told that my wife's visa, issued in Thailand, was only a Non-Imm. O Visa. As it was a Dependent's Visa and therefore due to a rule change she did not qualify.  She would have to start again in the UK and apply for a new O-A Visa.  

 

"This is a very onerous and expensive procedure.  The London Consulate has been very helpful and I made a case with them for all retirement visa holders being allowed back.  They said that they had to follow the rules and that they had received many complaints recently from "frustrated" retirement visa holders".  

 

Mr and Mrs L and M are well-off retirees from the Netherlands aged 74 and 63:

 

"We have lived in Thailand for almost 15 years and own a house (not the land) valued at 30 million Euro. We have 4 children, 4 grandchildren and a Thai daughter in law. We pay income tax in Thailand where we are fiscal residents.

 

"Our contribution to the Thai economy is about 150.000 - 200.000 baht per month.

 

"We go to the Netherlands 1-2 times a year to visit our children and our children and grandchildren visit us almost every year (also spending a serious amount of money in Thailand).

 

"This spring we went to the Netherlands to see our children with the expectation we could go back latest in the third quarter, also because an operation was planned and we were assured medical travel was allowed.

 

"We had contact with the Thai embassy in the Netherlands several times and they were really very helpful, but even they cannot cope with the daily changing rules. We were already admitted on the basis of medical necessity and as long stay tourists, but that was cancelled or postponed. 

 

"Now we asked to be admitted because we own property, but only condo-owners can apply for a visa!

 

"Until now we have paid our Thai employees full wages, but we will have to stop if this situation continues.

 

"For many years we were very happy in Thailand but now we realize more and more that Thailand does not value us at all. We are only seen as ATM machines and we are thinking of selling our property and finding a country where we are more welcome. 

 

"I can assure you that many of our acquaintances feel the same and are preparing to go elsewhere". 

 

Mr N left Northern Ireland 25 years ago and has a villa in Koh Samui and a condo in Pattaya and is an onshore/offshore worker in Abu Dhabi who has been outside Thailand since February. He said:

 

"My Polish partner (together 18 years) has had her visa renewed and is just waiting on a work permit but at least she's back legally.

 

"I will be finishing my contract on December 31st with no home to go"  

 

Though he has a place in the Netherlands he wants to be in Thailand.

 

"I am fed up and at my wits' end. I have been living in Samui for 7 years and going to the island for 11 continually spending money staying at 5 star hotels and we are treated like (this).

 

"Nothing matters anymore and I can't get back to my wife who is my life and soul mate and she is struggling also. If we didn't have the two dogs she would be losing her mind.

 

"What do I do when I finish? Go back to Europe where at the moment it's totally screwed or try to stay in Abu Dhabi for a month and apply from here where I have sent several emails about the STV (special tourist visa) and received absolutely nothing in reply.

 

"I hate the fact of the ridiculous hoops of trying to get back to my own home. They are holding me to ransom.

 

"I'm certainly going to reassess where I want to live the rest of my life. I love my home in Koh Samui in the mountains and have many Thai friends who are really concerned.

 

"I'm not going to pay the money for the Elite Visa. Why should I? What makes them better than me and others who have properties there? As we all know money talks but sooner or later this has to give and I've talked this over with my wife and I'm sure we are not in the front of the queue". 

 

Person O said:

 

"I'm pleased that Thaivisa has highlighted the plight of so many expats that have been left stranded outside of Thailand as is the case with myself who has been living in Thailand since 2004 and have been stranded in the UK since I left Thailand in Dec 2019 to visit my family for Christmas.

 

"I was due to return in February 2020 but rescheduled my return flight for April due to my Mother unexpectedly needing urgent medical care whereby I decided to stay a little longer to help with her recovery.

 

"I own a condo and a car since 2004 in Thailand as well as living with my Thai partner, although unmarried and have no means of returning since March 2020.

 

"I also have been on a retirement extension that I've had since 2016 which has now expired. All my belongings, clothes, personal items, bank accounts are in Thailand.

 

"Our lives are now in limbo without any assistance from the Thai authorities to make it possible to return to our homes and our lives that we had before".

 

Finally we have the case of Mr P who has lived in Thailand 14 years, 12 on a retirement visa. He left on a “bucket list trip” in March and got stuck.

 

He had big problems in his holiday destination even finding a Thai consulate.He was given a document about getting back into Thailand and told it was a “case by case basis”. Retirement was not even mentioned. He thinks long term retirees should get a residency permit.

 

 His main problem was with his bank.

 

“I am one who has deposited 800k in a Thai Bank. Upon deposit, it is stated that to close the account one must be “physically present” in the same branch the account was opened and with the same passport used, even though it may have expired and a new one issued. Being stranded elsewhere and locked out of Thailand, prevents me from withdrawing the 800,000 when I am in dire need of the funds and stranded in another country due to the pandemic”, he said. 

 

“I contacted a Thai friend who is very highly placed in the financial department of a well-known company in Thailand to investigate. They told me that even they could not function as a legal proxy for a Thai friend who had been caught in a similar situation.  

 

“Thailand won’t let me in the country to close my account and I can’t even hire a lawyer to do it for me. 

 

“As one who feels the sting of this predicament, I am suffering”.

 

Look out for further stories about an eloquent yet stranded Bangkok property owner and writer whose dream is in tatters and another British national who has jumped through the hoops and returned but has some interesting observations about state quarantine.

 

RELATED:

"The Stranded": Highlighting the plight of expats unable to return to Thailand; #3 Charity workers and volunteers

 

"The Stranded": Highlighting the plight of expats unable to return to Thailand; #2 Retirees

 

"The Stranded": Thaivisa highlights the plight of expats unable to return to Thailand: #1: Teachers

 

 

-- © Copyright Thai Visa News 2020-10-19

 

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[ukrules]

They don't care at all, act accordingly when it comes to investing. Buyer beware.

[johng]

Hasnt it been said many times.

 

"Never invest more in Thailand than you are prepared to walk away from"

[Brunolem]

But property owners can come back to Thailand!

 

They just need to show 3 million baht on their Thai bank account, 0.5 million in a foreign bank account, 5 baht of Thai gold around their neck, a Buddha amulet approved by the Thai Post Office, and be able to recite the Thai alphabet backward in less than 3 minutes.

 

What's to complain about?

Edited October 19, 2020 by Brunolem

[MRToMRT]

I sympathise with them. Additionally the status of retirees who own property needs to be looked at by the government. For me "retiring to Thailand" means making your home there and living out your remaining years there. 

There needs to be something put in place like PR for retirees (for those who are not aware, retirees cannot apply for PR) as well as the other non qualifying groups such as elite, etc. 

Its up to the government to make sure some sort of residency status is given in the future and be truthful by openly reclassifying the current retirement visas et al as variants of tourist visas. 

Property owners/Retirees want/value safety in their remaining years. 

Edited October 19, 2020 by MRToMRT

[Meat Pie 47]

20 minutes ago, johng said:

Hasnt it been said many times.

 

"Never invest more in Thailand than you are prepared to walk away from"

I found out the hard way

[JAFO]

Tough times indeed. Thailand has taken a very strong approach to keeping the C 19 out but should have a task force to review cases based on the very things most of these folks are having to deal with. The people stories above show that they are not tourists.  I can see near term keeping the masses of tourists out but the property owners, folks with families etc should be allowed back in without question. They should comply with the 14 day quarantine then be on their way.

 

Sadly its a mess all over the world. Every country is trying to manage it as they see fit. While I will not point blame at Thailand's approach I do heavily question their lack of professionalism towards folks who have a stake here in some way and just want to return home.

[uksmdh]

52 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

But property owners can come back to Thailand!

 

They just need to show 3 million baht on their Thai bank account, 0.5 million in a foreign bank account, 5 baht of Thai gold around their neck, a Buddha amulet approved by the Thai Post Office, and be able to recite the Thai alphabet backward in less than 3 minutes.

 

What's to complain about?

Sorry you are 25 steps short of fulfilling the requirements.  

[Blumpie]

Extremely frustrating, but these visas do not make Thailand your home at all.  This black swan that happened has sent them back to their true nature.

I wouldn't invest .01c in Thailand.  The place is a total train wreck.  Any other country would allow these people back in after doing the proper quarantine measures at their own expense.  

Thais just don't care.  They want more money, and are not interested in doing the right thing.  Disgusting.  

[Blumpie]

14 minutes ago, JAFO said:

 

 

Sadly its a mess all over the world. Every country is trying to manage it as they see fit. While I will not point blame at Thailand's approach I do heavily question their lack of professionalism towards folks who have a stake here in some way and just want to return home.

Other countries around the world are handling this much better than Thailand.  It has nothing to do with professionalism, it's the fact that they just don't care.  Everybody knows it.

[JAFO]

1 hour ago, Blumpie said:

Other countries around the world are handling this much better than Thailand.  It has nothing to do with professionalism, it's the fact that they just don't care.  Everybody knows it.

While I cannot disagree that other countries are handling this better but for years I have read and heard a lot about "They do not care, all they want is your money".  I guess I would ask " Why should they care?"  I do not mean that in a harsh way but what do you really expect them to do?  I would never expect a country to care about me and the folks that go on and on about how much money they spend here shouldn't really matter and clearly doesn't.  I work and live here and pay Thai taxes, own a home etc and I do not expect special privileges. Same as when I lived in the states. Why would I expect special privileges?  I think many foreigners have a much higher opinion of their worth here.   

 

This is a mess and has brought out the worst in many people and governments.  I have a few friends in the states who had family members die due to C19 related complications and they could not attend their funeral. Does the country not care or are they holding fast to the C19 controls in place?

 

Again I feel for the folks and believe they should have a group reviewing requests submitted wanting to return back to family, friends and their homes. Clearly its not a priority.  

[madmen]

Nobody mentioned the 3 million Baht. If they think it's all about a non o visa then they are in for a huge shock 

 

[Blumpie]

2 hours ago, JAFO said:

While I cannot disagree that other countries are handling this better but for years I have read and heard a lot about "They do not care, all they want is your money".  I guess I would ask " Why should they care?"  I do not mean that in a harsh way but what do you really expect them to do?  I would never expect a country to care about me and the folks that go on and on about how much money they spend here shouldn't really matter and clearly doesn't.  I work and live here and pay Thai taxes, own a home etc and I do not expect special privileges. Same as when I lived in the states. Why would I expect special privileges?  I think many foreigners have a much higher opinion of their worth here.   

 

This is a mess and has brought out the worst in many people and governments.  I have a few friends in the states who had family members die due to C19 related complications and they could not attend their funeral. Does the country not care or are they holding fast to the C19 controls in place?

 

Again I feel for the folks and believe they should have a group reviewing requests submitted wanting to return back to family, friends and their homes. Clearly its not a priority.  

Your deaths aside, and have nothing to do with the point, there is a logical solution.  Where I live permanent residents and residents who own real estate can certainly come back to our country as long as they self isolate for 14 days on their dime.  Tourism is completely banned, as it is in Thailand and many other countries.  

 

When you already have a valid visa and they won't let you in, and they let others ahead of you who promise to buy a condo that is disgusting.  And everyone knows it.  That is why Thai Visa, expats all over the globe are scratching their heads wondering what's going on.  

 

 

[mike1967]

In my 11 years of being in Thailand, the one thing I've learnt is always leave yourself in a situation where you can leave in 30 minutes. Obviously many will disagree but Covid kind of proves my point. I'm waiting to get back but the only thing I have there is my motorbike which is stored at friends house.

[chicowoodduck]

Well, as I am fond of telling my friends.....Do not buy anything in Thailand, rent your home, car, get a coin operated girl friend if you must and you will be more than happy in the long run.....????????????????????????????????????????

[Brad88]

15 hours ago, webfact said:

Some are angry at the way they have been treated and question the attitude of the Thai authorities to people who have invested heavily in Thailand in good faith.

They have a right to be angry and a right to be heard. Attitude is the starting point for intercultural competence and the Thai authorities have shown, through their highly ethnocentric actions and words towards foreign people, that they have a considerably low level of intercultural competence.

[rupert the bear]

its about time the embassies got involved or perhaps  we reciprocated,in all matters.what needs to happen is racist greed control needs to be reigned in.in all western countries thais with property/ visas can return or be allowed back and forth to the same extent the locals can.property holders spouses etc.so if this isnt reciprocated do something about it.we are always being preached to from our pc govts about discrimination and this is clear cut.so clearly act.

[Dialemco]

Covid is putting the world on a war footing putting travel on hold so for now best to forget foreign property and stay at home. Let's hope that war does not actually break out there are hot spots where this could happen 

[Dogbarker]

 I read these stories and it could be well be me ..My wife and I are stranded in the UK as we came back for the birth of our grandchild. Big long term investments in Thailand .  We have 1.6m  for our visa sitting dormant in a  bank plus our  pension lump sum spending money .. an MU7 idle and a house ingested with geckos no doubt. I do not want to put more money I go a bank a count I have enough invested. Out visa extension expires in February .  After that we are supposed to start again ? With CM immigration no way . .. get a tourist visa when new normal starts Sell up move country and start again  elsewhere... I have property but seems if I buy a new property I can come in .. yeah for sure fair  indeed.. I am pleased to say I am probabaly fortunate to be able to live comfortably in the UK until this is sorted ...

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

14 hours ago, MRToMRT said:

I sympathise with them. Additionally the status of retirees who own property needs to be looked at by the government. For me "retiring to Thailand" means making your home there and living out your remaining years there. 

There needs to be something put in place like PR for retirees (for those who are not aware, retirees cannot apply for PR) as well as the other non qualifying groups such as elite, etc. 

Its up to the government to make sure some sort of residency status is given in the future and be truthful by openly reclassifying the current retirement visas et al as variants of tourist visas. 

Property owners/Retirees want/value safety in their remaining years. 

 

It has been clear for many years they don't want and don't value these groups of foreigners and they don't want them here permanently. 

 

Instead of asking the Thais to change, those looking for more security in retirement should be looking elsewhere IMO. 

 

Giving permanent residency to non-tax payers, those that do not speak the language and those persons not interested in integrating into the local culture probably won't happen I'm afraid. 

 

But this is a good thing as it limits the amount of immigration to Thailand which is the entire point. The very same people wanting to do anything they want in Thailand on one hand are probably decrying the mass immigration of foreigners to their home country on the other. 

 

Chok dee!

 

 

[micmichd]

11 hours ago, JAFO said:

While I cannot disagree that other countries are handling this better but for years I have read and heard a lot about "They do not care, all they want is your money".  I guess I would ask " Why should they care?"  I do not mean that in a harsh way but what do you really expect them to do?  I would never expect a country to care about me and the folks that go on and on about how much money they spend here shouldn't really matter and clearly doesn't.  I work and live here and pay Thai taxes, own a home etc and I do not expect special privileges. Same as when I lived in the states. Why would I expect special privileges?  I think many foreigners have a much higher opinion of their worth here.   

 

This is a mess and has brought out the worst in many people and governments.  I have a few friends in the states who had family members die due to C19 related complications and they could not attend their funeral. Does the country not care or are they holding fast to the C19 controls in place?

 

Again I feel for the folks and believe they should have a group reviewing requests submitted wanting to return back to family, friends and their homes. Clearly its not a priority.  

Thai government said it quite clearly: Getting rid of the C19 pandemic is their top priority, and as long as the pandemic is not over in the West Farangs that want to return from Western Nations are considered a menace to Thai people.

 

[stvette2002]

My wife and I moved to Thailand to retire and returned to the States 4 years ago and while we were there we met many people that purchased homes and condos. I was always leary of the Thai way of purchasing real estate with a Thai partner that had 51% of the ownership of property or business. I explained to my expat friends that if the government wants at anytime they could just find a way to confiscate the property. The same goes for the money in a Thai bank, we stayed using the income proving method at the time. I never trusted a government or a people that will not allow full ownership in anything. The US has a treaty that allows US citizens to purchase land and own business but try to do that and it is impossible so the treaty is useless, like everything else that is put forth by the government. They want only to confiscate property and money left in bank accounts as they need it to do what they want.

[jingjing99]

Deepest sympathy for those who have become locked out of their home, and a country they love.

 

But I believe the Thai people in general still like "Farangs"...but have little voice in their country where media, TV, and News stations are controlled... and give a negative slant to all things foreign.... except cheap Burmese labour, a major 

contributor to COVID cases here, but whose cheap labour costs, benefit the large wealthy Thai investors and construction companies.

The people who rule this country by Military force do not represent the majority of Thai people, and this situation may be changing fast ...see Bangkok protests..It is also wrong to say that Thais voters have not tried to change the system, as millions voted for the Forward party last year, and the military crushed the popular democratic results, by making the party illegal. 

The injustice of the elite in this country, who benefit from the present political situation, is difficult to change,

but change is coming, and possibly soon...

 

 

 

[brucec64]

13 hours ago, Blumpie said:

Extremely frustrating, but these visas do not make Thailand your home at all.  This black swan that happened has sent them back to their true nature.

I wouldn't invest .01c in Thailand.  The place is a total train wreck.  Any other country would allow these people back in after doing the proper quarantine measures at their own expense.  

Thais just don't care.  They want more money, and are not interested in doing the right thing.  Disgusting.  

Both canada and Australia would not, along with many other countries. Thailand is far from alone in imposing these travel restrictions. 

 

Most of these stories involve people leaving when the restrictions were already in place. At some point people need to take responsibility for their actions and stop playing the victim.

[vandeventer]

23 minutes ago, Dialemco said:

Covid is putting the world on a war footing putting travel on hold so for now best to forget foreign property and stay at home. Let's hope that war does not actually break out there are hot spots where this could happen 

It's not covid 19,it's the governments from many countries that have the Power to control the many, it's gone to their heads or some group with big money that  are paying them to do this. If you took a vote on this with the Thai people, I am sure they would want all the foreigners to return to Thailand with out all this BS.

[micmichd]

5 minutes ago, jingjing99 said:

Deepest sympathy for those who have become locked out of their home, and a country they love.

 

But I believe the Thai people in general still like "Farangs"...but have little voice in their country where media, TV, and News stations are controlled... and give a negative slant to all things foreign.... except cheap Burmese labour, a major 

contributor to COVID cases here, but whose cheap labour costs, benefit the large wealthy Thai investors and construction companies.

The people who rule this country by Military force do not represent the majority of Thai people, and this situation may be changing fast ...see Bangkok protests..It is also wrong to say that Thais voters have not tried to change the system, as millions voted for the Forward party last year, and the military crushed the popular democratic results, by making the party illegal. 

The injustice of the elite in this country, who benefit from the present political situation, is difficult to change,

but change is coming, and possibly soon...

 

 

 

Don't be mistaken. The vast majority of Thai people don't want any Farangs to return to Thailand, either. Whether "yellow" or red"

[fangless]

1 hour ago, mike1967 said:

always leave yourself in a situation where you can leave in 30 minutes.

I couldn't even get out to the airport in 30 minutes, never mind leave the country in that time.

[rumak]

15 hours ago, Brunolem said:

But property owners can come back to Thailand!

 

They just need to show 3 million baht on their Thai bank account, 0.5 million in a foreign bank account, 5 baht of Thai gold around their neck, a Buddha amulet approved by the Thai Post Office, and be able to recite the Thai alphabet backward in less than 3 minutes.

 

What's to complain about?

UPDATE :  Sorry B .......    there were a few people that managed to do that.    NOW,  the time to recite the alphabet has been changed.   One Minute !     GO....

[AlfHuy]

"We have lived in Thailand for almost 15 years and own a house (not the land) valued at 30 million Euro. We have 4 children, 4 grandchildren and a Thai daughter in law. We pay income tax in Thailand where we are fiscal residents.

 

30 million Euro that is 1100000000 baht

 

They are either complete show offs or the craziest people I ever met.

I don't think that there is a house in Thailand, valued at this price (land not included)????

 

[sungod]

14 hours ago, Blumpie said:

Other countries around the world are handling this much better than Thailand.  It has nothing to do with professionalism, it's the fact that they just don't care.  Everybody knows it.

I'd disagree, I think its that they are more risk adverse.