Thai were proud and center of universe in 19th century

[ThailandRyan]

8 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

 

 

You're all discussing a fictional book like it's some kind of historical document

Just using some fitting passages written many years ago, whether fiction or reality some of the words ring true still today, wouldn't you agree.

[ThailandRyan]

7 hours ago, CorpusChristie said:

Some things dont change , Westerners coming to Thailand and thinking that they should be revered and are superior , expecting Thais to bow down In front of them , because they are much better then they are  

Not quite true in all aspects.  A company hires said farang for his knowledge and expertise in today's world, only to still ridicule his/her ideas and to put them at the bottom of the management chain when they were hired as a director. Thai's don't really like change unfortunately and only want to keep doing whats easiest.  When you show and direct people how to make a change that will increase productivity and profits for the company the workers do not see it as being beneficial.  After 6 months I had the corporate directors from the US cash out my option on my 1 year contract and became a private company investigating the same company's security structure and corporate made the changes from the top.  

Edited October 21, 2020 by ThailandRyan

[polpott]

9 hours ago, Genmai said:

I am less concerned for myself than I am for the mission. Since my arrival attendance at service has not increased beyond the dozen or so minority Chinese families converted years prior. Piles of translated tracts and pamphlets lie untouched.

The real reason that American missionaries come here both then and today. They've done a lot more harm than good over the years. Saving souls? They should try saving their own first.

 

Used to get a lot of American Mormons knocking on my door in the UK. I always used to tell them the same thing, "Don't come to my country telling me how to live my life when your country is in a far worse state". Hypocrites, one and all.

[Lacessit]

They still are, although that's promoted by the elite. IMO the realization is dawning on younger Thais that it is BS.

Once I took my GF to Australia, and she could see how big and different Australia is to Thailand ( Where are the police? Where are the villages in the outback? ) her mindset did change.

[DrTuner]

12 hours ago, 2 is 1 said:

Everybody should be proud of they own heritage. Most of people don't watch the history even that can teacth us much! Im pround to be Finnish man, not what is now but what have happen in past. How my granfather loose 3 hes brother in ww2, to fight for what have now. Kid's and many other dont think its important, but its most important what have now! Whitout many people's heroism and self sacrifice non of us dont have even free to speak! 

Yeah well, my grandparents fought ( and got wounded and had to flee Karelia ) in WW2 as well, but I don't identify as a Finnish nationalist. My take is, if you need to be proud of something, be proud of something you personally have done. Don't really get saying "I'm proud of you" to kids either, ain't my doings. Instead I say "You should be proud of your achievement, well done". As for heritage, sure, having a personal value set is a good thing. But binding that to some land borders or group of people ain't.

 

Nationalism is a pathway to authoritarianism. As well seen in modern day Thailand.

[DrTuner]

5 hours ago, quake said:

that's way past it's sell by date.

Maibpenrai is ok when you have nothing important to do. It's when you do have something that needs to be done when it becomes toxic. 

[owl sees all]

15 hours ago, DrTuner said:

That's culture for you. Not all culture is good or worth preserving.

Bang on the money.

 

A lot of customs; especially to do with religion, are only fit for the bin.

[quake]

4 hours ago, owl sees all said:

Bang on the money.

 

A lot of customs; especially to do with religion, are only fit for the bin.

Go one step more, bin all religions,  they will all go the same way as the dinosaurs at some point in time.  very soon i hope

[Lacessit]

8 minutes ago, quake said:

Go one step more, bin all religions,  they will all go the same way as the dinosaurs at some point in time.  very soon i hope

I don't have a problem with Paganism. At least that worships what can be seen and felt.

[3NUMBAS]

nobody else had bum guns at that time they was a thai thing

[Misab]

21 hours ago, Elkski said:

there is  also a chapter on the massacre but not sure I can post it here. 

I sure always got the "not listen to farang treatment.  GF listens to stuff she reads on FB forums before  me"  hopefully that is changing wince a  few of my predictions have come true.

It will never change

[herfiehandbag]

21 hours ago, Elkski said:

"They are a proud, even arrogant people, having yet to come under the domain of a more advanced nation."

Whilst we must not forget that this is fiction, perhaps we should assume that the author will have researched opinions, letters and reports from people in a similar position to his character before writing the book.

 

The quoted excerpt perhaps says at least as much about the character portrayed than it does about the Thai people. However let's look at some of the things he says about the Thais at that time, and the parallels with current Thai society which have been drawn here.

 

They thought that they were "the centre of the universe", well of course they did. There was no media, little if any education, and the vast majority would have had no knowledge of any life outside their immediate surroundings, or any spiritual or political thoughts beyond the society in which they lived. Exactly the same could have been said of a community of Arkansan farmers, Brazilian plantation workers, or English mill workers at that time. In all societies, apart from the few wealthy and educated who travelled (like the character portrayed), and small numbers who worked as sailors or perhaps (for the colonial powers) soldiers, the vast majority would have had no idea of, or probably interest in anything beyond their immediate community. Most were born, grew up, lived and died within a radius of say 50 miles , often less. Many probably never heard a foreign language spoken during their whole life. The Thai "Sakdina" system was the way in which their society naturally ordered and organised itself. Of course they thought they were the centre of the universe - they were the centre of their universe!

 

Now if we fast forward 150 years or so to the present day, what is the biggest change? The prevalence of media. In particular film and then television which have shown just about everyone in the last 100 years so much about the wider world. That has lately been expanded by the development of new medias, which are enjoying huge penetration, especially amongst younger people here in Thailand.

 

The "more advanced" nations matched that increase in knowledge from mass media with the development of more inclusive form of government, in which people had more say and influence in how they were governed, culminating in the various forms of democracy which govern most countries in the 21st Century.

 

In Thailand the development of government, and the say and influence of the people in how they are governed has been held back by those formerly at the top of the Sakdina pyramid. In fact they have sought to maintain the Sakdina principle, albeit now defined by wealth rather than caste. They had some success in the last decades of the last century, but it is now breaking down rapidly, largely under the influence of new medias, uncontrolled and uncontrollable by "Sakdina", and leading to ideas, demands and political movements which are snowballing especially amongst the young.

 

Those at the top of this crumbling system still profess Thailand as the centre of the universe, this is because their universe is defined by wealth, and they have managed to accumulate huge, almost unimaginable amounts of wealth; that leads to a particularly avaricious venal pride, in themselves and their society. The general population is also/still proud (of their country) but that pride, especially amongst the younger generation, is because of what they think and wish to do with their country and society. It is what we are seeing on the streets at present. It gives me hope for the future of the country!

 

Phew, after all that, I'm needing a beer!

 

 

[Grumpy one]

19 hours ago, Genmai said:

 

From an interview with the author here: https://www.prestigeonline.com/th/pursuits/art-culture/exclusive-interview-pitchaya-sundbanthad/

 

 

The good old missionaries could not have been a bigger curse on the world if they tried

What gave them the right to try and force their beliefs on anyone

[NanLaew]

21 hours ago, Flying Saucage said:

Below the Thais at the bottom of Sakdina, in the doctrine of the elite, there comes firstly the Thai street dogs, then the "farangs", the Arabs, the Indians, Chinese, Cambodians, Burmese and Africans, in this order. The colour of the skin plays an important role also.

ROFLMAO.

 

Seriously, ROFLMAO...

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, Grumpy one said:

The good old missionaries could not have been a bigger curse on the world if they tried

What gave them the right to try and force their beliefs on anyone

The saying goes in Hawaii the missionaries went there to do good, and they did right well.

[Genmai]

13 hours ago, polpott said:

The real reason that American missionaries come here both then and today. They've done a lot more harm than good over the years. Saving souls? They should try saving their own first.

 

Used to get a lot of American Mormons knocking on my door in the UK. I always used to tell them the same thing, "Don't come to my country telling me how to live my life when your country is in a far worse state". Hypocrites, one and all.

 

1 hour ago, Grumpy one said:

The good old missionaries could not have been a bigger curse on the world if they tried

What gave them the right to try and force their beliefs on anyone

 

Shall we adopt the same logic towards North Korea? Or places in Africa practicing sacrificial infanticide? Or India where reluctance to adopt civilized toilet usage results in mass open air defecation? Or even South East Asia where local animist superstitions were supplanted by Buddhism? Or literally any NGO operating anywhere?

 

Shall you levy the same criticisms toward Thai Buddhist temples operating overseas? Or have you swallowed the guilt-trip pill that so many Westerners (white cis-gendered hetero males in particular) have been getting shoved down their throats for decades?

 

Very few systems can be said to be perfect. But perfect is the enemy of good. At a certain point one has to make a stand and say "our system may not be perfect, but it has its benefits". 

 

There is 0 shame in having pride in the Western heritage of bringing civilization to far-flung corners of the globe. If you think that Thais and other less developed places in the world have been "forced" into a Western mindset then I'll say they are free to abandon it - along with other Western advances like electricity, pants, medicine and eyeglasses.

 

[Lacessit]

7 hours ago, Genmai said:

 

 

Shall we adopt the same logic towards North Korea? Or places in Africa practicing sacrificial infanticide? Or India where reluctance to adopt civilized toilet usage results in mass open air defecation? Or even South East Asia where local animist superstitions were supplanted by Buddhism? Or literally any NGO operating anywhere?

 

Shall you levy the same criticisms toward Thai Buddhist temples operating overseas? Or have you swallowed the guilt-trip pill that so many Westerners (white cis-gendered hetero males in particular) have been getting shoved down their throats for decades?

 

Very few systems can be said to be perfect. But perfect is the enemy of good. At a certain point one has to make a stand and say "our system may not be perfect, but it has its benefits". 

 

There is 0 shame in having pride in the Western heritage of bringing civilization to far-flung corners of the globe. If you think that Thais and other less developed places in the world have been "forced" into a Western mindset then I'll say they are free to abandon it - along with other Western advances like electricity, pants, medicine and eyeglasses.

 

I think you are confusing the benefits of Western technology with those of Western religion, which are quite limited. IMO Buddhism is probably the least malignant of the religions, because it is more a philosophy than a religion.

Perhaps you can explain the benefit of brainwashing children and adults into belief in something that can't be seen or felt, or the curious fact the Christian religion seems to be able to accumulate the very wealth it rails against in its teachings.

[polpott]

9 hours ago, Genmai said:

If you think that Thais and other less developed places in the world have been "forced" into a Western mindset then I'll say they are free to abandon it - along with other Western advances like electricity, pants, medicine and eyeglasses.

 

Yep, where would Thais be without their pants? 

[quake]

13 hours ago, Lacessit said:

I don't have a problem with Paganism. At least that worships what can be seen and felt.

Paganism,  makes me  think of Christopher Lee and the Wicker man film.

also Britt Eklands nice body,  ( back in the day) 

[Elkski]

Once again, people post on a thread without reading the relevant information first.  

The quote in the OP is the actual writings of a missionary  in the 19 th century not fiction.    Imaginary friend?  Haha.    What kind of mind would post that?  Its ok  im used to it on TV.  How many  farang think their opinion  is revered or even  seriously  considered initially  as a norm?   I don't think I am superior in everything  to every thai.  I am one who watches things with a keen eye.  I see craftsmen who do great jobs.  Like a man caulking  around a  large shop window on Suk.  I stopped to admire his work and inspected it with a very critical eye and gave him my thumbs up approval because it was utter perfection.  I know I could not achieve this even though I am quite skilled at things like this myself.  But I have also seen countless cases of paint dripped on the tile floor or cement because they didn't even consider protecting any surfaces other than what they were tasked with painting.  One time  I saw 5 or 6 men trying to load a piece of heavy manufacturing machinery into the back of a truck.   I signaled my girlfriend to stop so that I could watch them across the street. After a few minutes we sat down on a nearby bus stop bench and watched them for 15 or 20 minutes more.  I was trying to help them with body English and mind control from across the street but it didn't help. My girlfriend said it was a very bad idea to go suggest how to do it. But I decided to walk across the street and see if I could help. At  1st I just acted like an extra pair of hands to help them lift this blocky  machine that was real bottom  heavy.  Its just physics and seemedccommon sense to me but maybe my schooling helped?  When there ideas seemed to be all tried I  saw my opening and suggested we flip it over and lean the heavy  base on the truck bed..  we could flip it easy enough any which  way but with the light end up in a high bed truck we couldn't lift the heavy  end .   It was easy for me to see if we layed the 2 planks on the bed like a ramp and 1st flip the machine on to its light top with some dunnage  underneath we could  lean the heavy and in on the bed and we may be able to lift up the light end and push it up the ramp.  Actually within a couple feet the heavy end on the beam  helped us lift the light end and it slid into the truck so easy everybody yelled in happiness. But  no one was more grateful than the property  owner who no doubt had plans to  get all the dirty equipment and oil off her floor  to make way for a new cleaner  business.  

I'm sure most people who have spent any time in Thailand have experienced  this more than  once. I didn't see this in Vietnam. In fact my 7 days checking in on a house building crew impressed me each day.   Utter efficiency and skill  with primitive  tools.    

[TheFreqFlyer]

On 10/21/2020 at 12:12 AM, CorpusChristie said:

Some things dont change , Westerners coming to Thailand and thinking that they should be revered and are superior , expecting Thais to bow down In front of them , because they are much better then they are  

Not much different to any neighboring country.

 

Neither the Burmese, Laotians, Cambodians, Vietnamese and most definitely not the Chinese would be happy to bow down to some farang. 

 

It's probably an Asian thing. All peoples in this region are immensely proud of their nation and culture. 

 

Still, although I've never read the book, I think we shouldn't make too much of it.

 

Thais certainly listen to me; it all depends on your audience, their education and personality. As one can infer from the current protests, Thais are a deeply divided people. You have at least two different groups, almost the polar opposite to each other in terms of their thinking. 

[TheFreqFlyer]

2 hours ago, Elkski said:

Once again, people post on a thread without reading the relevant information first.  

The quote in the OP is the actual writings of a missionary  in the 19 th century not fiction.    Imaginary friend?  Haha.    What kind of mind would post that?  Its ok  im used to it on TV.  How many  farang think their opinion  is revered or even  seriously  considered initially  as a norm?   I don't think I am superior in everything  to every thai.  I am one who watches things with a keen eye.  I see craftsmen who do great jobs.  Like a man caulking  around a  large shop window on Suk.  I stopped to admire his work and inspected it with a very critical eye and gave him my thumbs up approval because it was utter perfection.  I know I could not achieve this even though I am quite skilled at things like this myself.  But I have also seen countless cases of paint dripped on the tile floor or cement because they didn't even consider protecting any surfaces other than what they were tasked with painting.  One time  I saw 5 or 6 men trying to load a piece of heavy manufacturing machinery into the back of a truck.   I signaled my girlfriend to stop so that I could watch them across the street. After a few minutes we sat down on a nearby bus stop bench and watched them for 15 or 20 minutes more.  I was trying to help them with body English and mind control from across the street but it didn't help. My girlfriend said it was a very bad idea to go suggest how to do it. But I decided to walk across the street and see if I could help. At  1st I just acted like an extra pair of hands to help them lift this blocky  machine that was real bottom  heavy.  Its just physics and seemedccommon sense to me but maybe my schooling helped?  When there ideas seemed to be all tried I  saw my opening and suggested we flip it over and lean the heavy  base on the truck bed..  we could flip it easy enough any which  way but with the light end up in a high bed truck we couldn't lift the heavy  end .   It was easy for me to see if we layed the 2 planks on the bed like a ramp and 1st flip the machine on to its light top with some dunnage  underneath we could  lean the heavy and in on the bed and we may be able to lift up the light end and push it up the ramp.  Actually within a couple feet the heavy end on the beam  helped us lift the light end and it slid into the truck so easy everybody yelled in happiness. But  no one was more grateful than the property  owner who no doubt had plans to  get all the dirty equipment and oil off her floor  to make way for a new cleaner  business.  

I'm sure most people who have spent any time in Thailand have experienced  this more than  once. I didn't see this in Vietnam. In fact my 7 days checking in on a house building crew impressed me each day.   Utter efficiency and skill  with primitive  tools.    

I've seen it in Vietnam, and it's even worse in Myanmar than in Thailand.

 

Also, chances are the laborers you are referring to might have been Cambodian or Burmese. Most menial laborers in Thailand aren't even Thai. In fact, aside from the AC guys and one contractor we regularly use, everyone else we've ever had from gardeners to street sweepers have been Khmer. 

[TheFreqFlyer]

On 10/21/2020 at 7:35 AM, ThailandRyan said:

Not quite true in all aspects.  A company hires said farang for his knowledge and expertise in today's world, only to still ridicule his/her ideas and to put them at the bottom of the management chain when they were hired as a director. Thai's don't really like change unfortunately and only want to keep doing whats easiest.  When you show and direct people how to make a change that will increase productivity and profits for the company the workers do not see it as being beneficial.  After 6 months I had the corporate directors from the US cash out my option on my 1 year contract and became a private company investigating the same company's security structure and corporate made the changes from the top.  

Haven't seen that happen. I worked for a foreign company whose executive director was naturally, an expat. All the local staff respected him and did what he said, but most of the office workers were given directions by the Thai office manager, who reported to the executive director. It was a management chain that worked well. The office itself only consisted of 6 employees including myself and the office manager + the executive director, so 7. Higher up in the command chain you also had the CEO and various directors to whom the executive director reported to. 

 

I think the issue you refer to happens mostly if it's a Thai company, run by Thais. 

[TheFreqFlyer]

On 10/20/2020 at 10:42 PM, sherwood said:

Showed my daughter a map of the solar system today and asked her where Earth was. No idea. she is six years old.

"No, we in Thailand", wonderful.

Much more home schooling me thinks.

Struth

Indeed, but come on, she's six! I don't remember knowing how to identify where Earth was in the Solar System at that age. Perhaps more appropriate around the age of 8.

 

Besides, many adults all over the world wouldn't be able to pick out the Earth on a model of the solar system!

[FritsSikkink]

The words of a missionary, trying to boss around other people and control them through an imaginary friend.

[TheFreqFlyer]

On 10/20/2020 at 11:10 PM, Flying Saucage said:

Thailand has been a feudalistic country for centuries, led by a handful of powerful families. And this "elite" of the country has been indoctrinating the people ever since with exactly this xenophobia and with the narrative that Thais are superior human beings. It's part and always has been part of the education of Thais.

 

The reasons why the elite has been cultivating this mindset are quite easy to understand:

 

In this narrative, which became a fundamental part of the Thai culture, it is always the dirty foreigners who pose difficulties to the Thai nation, while the Thais - thanks to their claimed unique purity - are tought to be a superiour race. By this narrative, the centuries old propaganda machinery of the establishment intends to position Thais way above any foreigner in the Sakdina pyramide, in order to make those Thais at the very bottom of Sakdina glad to have someone to look down at, and to appease them in difficult times.

 

It's nice to believe that you belong to the middle in the pecking order, even when in reality you are a slave of the elite, isn't it? This is to stabilize the political system, and it works quite well in this way.

 

Below the Thais at the bottom of Sakdina, in the doctrine of the elite, there comes firstly the Thai street dogs, then the "farangs", the Arabs, the Indians, Chinese, Cambodians, Burmese and Africans, in this order. The colour of the skin plays an important role also.

 

Of course, many Thais today don't follow this mindset anymore, but it is still part of the modern propaganda (see what Pinocchio and the junta tell the people daily!), with the exception that nowadays the propaganda machinery does everything to lift the Chinese over the "farang".

 

But, in all fairness, one should recognise that this part of controlling the populace is not limited to Thailand. It was in a similar way part of European colonialism (supremacy of the white race), the Nazis (supremacy of "das Deutsche Volk"), the Japanese 80 years ago and so on.  Also today examples can be found. The difference between Thailand and most other countries is that in Thailand the feudalistic system and it's structures are still there even after 800 years, and without any interruption ever since.

 

 

 

A huge exaggeration if you ask me.

 

In any case, what you are saying could just as well be applied to any neighboring country too. China is very similar, so is Myanmar. Not to mention the Middle East! 

 

In my experience, the Burmese (as lovely as they are but still) are some of the most entitled, stubborn, rigid and selfish people I've ever met. Can't tell you how many times I've been blocked in by nonchalant drivers who don't even so much as say sorry when they come to move their vehicles...half an hour later! I've never experienced anything like this in Thailand. 

 

I also find that in many of Thailand's neighbors (other than Cambodia) there are generally fewer smiles especially in urban areas. In the countryside, the people are quite charming. 

[TheFreqFlyer]

15 hours ago, Genmai said:

 

 

Shall we adopt the same logic towards North Korea? Or places in Africa practicing sacrificial infanticide? Or India where reluctance to adopt civilized toilet usage results in mass open air defecation? Or even South East Asia where local animist superstitions were supplanted by Buddhism? Or literally any NGO operating anywhere?

 

Shall you levy the same criticisms toward Thai Buddhist temples operating overseas? Or have you swallowed the guilt-trip pill that so many Westerners (white cis-gendered hetero males in particular) have been getting shoved down their throats for decades?

 

Very few systems can be said to be perfect. But perfect is the enemy of good. At a certain point one has to make a stand and say "our system may not be perfect, but it has its benefits". 

 

There is 0 shame in having pride in the Western heritage of bringing civilization to far-flung corners of the globe. If you think that Thais and other less developed places in the world have been "forced" into a Western mindset then I'll say they are free to abandon it - along with other Western advances like electricity, pants, medicine and eyeglasses.

 

Sorry but that's a seriously misguided right-wing view almost justifying that colonialism was good so as to "civilize the savages". BTW I'm actually Libertarian/have conservative leanings, but I'm certainly not someone who could ever justify colonialism. 

 

Besides, it's simply baloney.

 

For starters, just to give you some examples, colonialism didn't change the mindset of the Burmese, who were under almost 60 years of military oppression where all things foreign were purged from society. Fast forward 9 years (since the democratic reforms) and Thailand feels more like it was colonized than Myanmar/Burma, save for some colonial architecture in the main cities where the British resided. They even drive on the "wrong" side having switched to right-hand driving in 1970. The militia groups who have ruled large swathes of the country since that time have done a lot to change attitudes and allegiances back to pre-colonial times, thus undid any "progress" that the British may have brought with them. For someone who visited Myanmar pre 2011 they would have found a country that looked and felt like they had never seen a white person before. It was like stepping back decades in time. 

 

India is still far less civilized (except among the upper middle classes and elite) than how I would describe Thailand and their bureaucracy is arguably much worse than Thailand's.

 

There are plenty of good things about Thai culture, which I don't think the Thais should or need to change. Equally there are some things they should change (especially in the bureaucracy and education system), but corruption, lack of enforcement of laws and being a developing country explain things a lot better than culture alone. 

[polpott]

2 minutes ago, TheFreqFlyer said:

They even drive on the "wrong" side having switched to right-hand driving in 1970.

There is sound reasoning to drive on the LHS of the road. People used to pass each other on the RHS to leave their sword arm facing the oncommer. In the Uk we still walk with our women on the inside (LHS) for the same reason, safety first. The convention just continued when motor vehicles took to the road. Driving on the RHS was initiated by the French, for one reason only, they hated to follow British convention.

[DrTuner]

7 minutes ago, TheFreqFlyer said:

corruption, lack of enforcement of laws and being a developing country explain things a lot better than culture alone. 

Corruption, lack of enforcement and being a developing country is the culture here. It's embedded in the values Thais promulgate from generation to generation. The current crop of students does show promise, though. Probably due to access to the internet and outside world.

[Orton Rd]

Sir Anthony Rumbolds letter on leaving Bangkok as UK ambassador in 1967 could not be improved upon

 

"I have very much enjoyed living for a while in Thailand. One would have to be very insensitive or puritanical to take the view that the Thais had nothing to offer. It is true they have no literature, no painting, and only a very odd kind of music — that their sculpture, their ceramics and their dancing are borrowed from others — and that their architecture is monotonous and their interior decorations hideous. Nobody can deny that gambling and golf are the chief pleasures of the rich — and that licentiousness is the main pleasure of them all. But, it does a faded European good to spend some time among such a jolly, extrovert and anti-intellectual people!"

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Orton Rd