Biden blasts Trump as U.S. COVID-19 cases mount and Pence staff endures outbreak

[Salerno]

✈️

????

[Thomas J]

For those who said that Trump should follow the advise of "EXPERTS"  This is Anthony Fauci back in March 2020.  He has since changed his position on masks however that is irrelevant.  Those that wish to Monday morning quarterback on what should have been done forget this is what was stated at the beginning of the Coronavirus outbreak. 
 

 

[stevenl]

8 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

For those who said that Trump should follow the advise of "EXPERTS"  This is Anthony Fauci back in March 2020.  He has since changed his position on masks however that is irrelevant.  Those that wish to Monday morning quarterback on what should have been done forget this is what was stated at the beginning of the Coronavirus outbreak. 
 

 

As he concludes, everyone wearing masks would lead to a shortage of masks for the people who really need it 

 

This has been explained many, many times already.

[johnnybangkok]

3 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

For those who said that Trump should follow the advise of "EXPERTS"  This is Anthony Fauci back in March 2020.  He has since changed his position on masks however that is irrelevant.  Those that wish to Monday morning quarterback on what should have been done forget this is what was stated at the beginning of the Coronavirus outbreak. 
 

 

'As Fauci told the Washington Post  here , at the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, masks were not recommended for the general public, as authorities were trying to prevent a mask shortage for health workers and the extent of asymptomatic spread was unknown'.    https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-fauci-outdated-video-masks-idUSKBN26T2TR

 

He said those comments way back in March. Since then both he and the CDC have been consistent in their message that masks can be particularly helpful in containing the spread. This is unlike Trump who has had the same information but HASN"T changed his stance and consistently played down mask wearing, even mocking Biden in his recent debate with '“When needed, I wear masks. I don’t wear masks like him,” he said of Mr. Biden. “Every time you see him, he’s got a mask. He could be speaking 200 feet away from them, and he shows up with the biggest mask I’ve ever seen.” That and still holding super-spreader events where very few wearv masks or social distance.

 

Fauci (like most good scientists) changed his opinion as and when more information came to light and the threat of a run on masks subsided. These are the actions of a reasonable person. 

[Thomas J]

8 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

Fauci (like most good scientists) changed his opinion as and when more information came to light and the threat of a run on masks subsided. These are the actions of a reasonable person. 

johnnybangkok

He changed his mind however he very clearly in the video says that people who had covid should wear a mask to prevent spreading it to others.  He said wearing a mask might make people feel better and it "might" block a droplet. He also mentioned unintended consequences of fiddling with the mask.  One way or another this was the prevailing thought back in March so saying that Trump or anyone else should have done something different back then is revisionist history since the advise at the time was not to wear masks.  Additionally here is a clip from Andrew Cuomo stating back in May that the vast majority of new cases were from people who were self isolating.  
 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The part you're missing is March was a relative long time ago, in the early states of the U.S. pandemic.. Lots has changed since then, as has the medical knowledge and advice on the subject of masks. It's only Trump and his fellow virus deniers who haven't changed with the times and circumstances.

 

I said at the very outset, I suspected the main reason health authorities early on were not recommending public mask wear was because doing so would have further imperiled the already severe shortages of legit N95 masks for health care workers who needed them most. And later, that's exactly what various officials conceded was part of their original thinking.

 

Now half a year+ later, with U.S. CV cases spiraling and hospital admissions and deaths beginning to follow the same trend, U.S. medical care personnel are still woefully short of the best N95 class masks they need to protect themselves..,. Because the Trump Administration never got serious about invoking the Defense Production Act to force significantly increased supplies of the masks.

 

With BKK's smog season beginning to start now, or even in the U.S., try finding a legit N95 mask for sale in any store or legit online retailer in the U.S. or Thailand. They're simply none to be had. Understandable 7 months ago at the outset. A damning indictment now 7 months later.

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[johnnybangkok]

21 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

johnnybangkok

He changed his mind however he very clearly in the video says that people who had covid should wear a mask to prevent spreading it to others.  He said wearing a mask might make people feel better and it "might" block a droplet. He also mentioned unintended consequences of fiddling with the mask.  One way or another this was the prevailing thought back in March so saying that Trump or anyone else should have done something different back then is revisionist history since the advise at the time was not to wear masks.  Additionally here is a clip from Andrew Cuomo stating back in May that the vast majority of new cases were from people who were self isolating.  
 

 

I’m not really sure what point you are trying to make here. As TallGuyJohninBKK has pointed out, your Fauci statement was from 9 months ago (At the very beginning of the pandemic) and your Cuomo one is 7 months ago talking about self isolation. Since then Trump has had ample time to change his stance on both mask wearing and the benefits of self-isolation but steadfastly refuses to do so, DESPITE overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary. In fact he is not only not scientifically guiding the nation on the appropriate response but actively supporting no mask wearing and no self-distancing at his events. 
No one is saying “that Trump or anyone else should have done something different back then....”, we are however saying he should definitely be doing something different now. 

[Thomas J]

24 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

No one is saying “that Trump or anyone else should have done something different back then....”, we are however saying he should definitely be doing something different now. 

Johnnybangkok

Two things, it was notably Biden who blasted Trump for his response to the coronavirus so saying no one is saying he should have done something different back then is not correct. 

Secondly, If social isolation, masks, quarantines work.  Why is it that Sweden who has done none of those has a lower coronavirus infection rate than  France, Netherlands, Belgium, U.K., Switzerland, Portugal, and Portugal.  So much for your OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE of their effectiveness.  Heck if one followed the empirical evidence the quarantines, social distancing, and masks would lead you to believe that they contributed to the spread of the virus. 

Additionally, to beat a dead horse.  The president has no authority over controls in any state.  South Dakota imposed nothing.  Contrast that to New York, and New Jersey who mandated strict controls and have the worst statistics on coronavirus deaths.  If someone wants to social distance, wear a mask and live in quarantine, Trump did nothing to prevent that. 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Thomas J

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

46 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Secondly, If social isolation, masks, quarantines work.  Why is it that Sweden who has done none of those has a lower coronavirus infection rate than  France, Netherlands, Belgium, U.K., Switzerland, Portugal, and Portugal.  So much for your OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE of their effectiveness. 

 

You selectively cherry picked your examples, ignoring the various countries neighboring to Sweden that better share its general characteristics. Your data source, CV cases per million population:

 

Sweden -- 12,288

Denmark -- 7,993

World -- 5,953

Norway -- 3,740 Finland -- 2,907   Not such a good look for Sweden.

 

[johnnybangkok]

2 hours ago, Thomas J said:

Johnnybangkok

Two things, it was notably Biden who blasted Trump for his response to the coronavirus so saying no one is saying he should have done something different back then is not correct. 

Secondly, If social isolation, masks, quarantines work.  Why is it that Sweden who has done none of those has a lower coronavirus infection rate than  France, Netherlands, Belgium, U.K., Switzerland, Portugal, and Portugal.  So much for your OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE of their effectiveness.  Heck if one followed the empirical evidence the quarantines, social distancing, and masks would lead you to believe that they contributed to the spread of the virus. 

Additionally, to beat a dead horse.  The president has no authority over controls in any state.  South Dakota imposed nothing.  Contrast that to New York, and New Jersey who mandated strict controls and have the worst statistics on coronavirus deaths.  If someone wants to social distance, wear a mask and live in quarantine, Trump did nothing to prevent that. 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

 

Oh god not the Sweden example again. This has been done to death. As TKJ above has pointed out, Swedens death rate per thousand is amongst then highest around and significently worse than it's neighbouring countries and if you have bothered to read this thread you will see that I mentioned in an earlier post :-

 

'That 'Sweden did absolutely nothing' ascertion is not correct.  Sweden did introduce self distancing (mostly voluntarily),  isolated the most vulnerable (not nearly well enough), closed high schools and universities, banned large gatherings and introduced work at home policies. In addition it closed it's borders and although the lowest of all the Nordic countries, still has plenty of testing going on. 

However, despite all of these measures, Sweden still has a much higher  death toll than in its Nordic neighbours, which opted for tougher lockdown measures. Norway, with around half the population, has had only around 260 COVID deaths in total.  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-sweden-idUSKCN25F1YL. Sweden ranks 17th in deaths per 100,000 population, which although better than the US, is nothing to be bragging about.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality.'

 

And the President does have control over the states if he had bothered to enact the State of Emergency he declared in March and passed into Federal Law (which supercedes State law) things like social-distancing, mask wearing, self-isolation etc. Under mounting pressure he eventually enacted the Defence Production Act but only managed to force companies who were already making PPE to make more.  The problem was he used the powers to try and keep states open, ignore mask wearing and generally play down the pandemic rather than do what needed to be done. Early mistakes can be seen as exactly that, but his continued downplaying and 'it's just the flu' and 'I got over it, so will you' line of rhetoric even to this day is neither helpful nor scientific and why he must shoulder much of the blame for the state America is in right now with C19.

   

[Thomas J]

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

You selectively cherry picked your examples, ignoring the various countries neighboring to Sweden that better share its general characteristics. Your data source, CV cases per million population:

 

Sweden -- 12,288

Denmark -- 7,993

World -- 5,953

Norway -- 3,740 Finland -- 2,907

 

 

Tall;guyJohninBKK

I did not selectively cherry picked the numbers.  I pointed out very accurately that if social distancing , masks and quarantines should have worked in other European countries that did impose them.  The fact that Sweden did absolutely nothing and has a lower covid infection rate per million than those countries that did impose them such as the UK, Portugal, Spain, Belgium, Switzerland, and France pretty well disproves their effectiveness.  If they were effective than those countries should have had markedly lower or conversely Sweden should have had markedly higher Covid death rates per million. Just like South Dakota has a lower Covid rate that New York I would expect the less densely populated areas like Denmark, Norway and Finland to be lower than Sweden just like I would expect New York, Chicago, and L.A. to be higher than Sioux Falls South Dakog. 

[johnnybangkok]

17 hours ago, Thomas J said:

 

 

Tall;guyJohninBKK

I did not selectively cherry picked the numbers.  I pointed out very accurately that if social distancing , masks and quarantines should have worked in other European countries that did impose them.  The fact that Sweden did absolutely nothing and has a lower covid infection rate per million than those countries that did impose them such as the UK, Portugal, Spain, Belgium, Switzerland, and France pretty well disproves their effectiveness.  If they were effective than those countries should have had markedly lower or conversely Sweden should have had markedly higher Covid death rates per million. Just like South Dakota has a lower Covid rate that New York I would expect the less densely populated areas like Denmark, Norway and Finland to be lower than Sweden just like I would expect New York, Chicago, and L.A. to be higher than Sioux Falls South Dakog. 

Sweden did not do 'absolutely nothing'. Please read the following article and you will see exactly what they did and it wasn't too dissimilar from the rest of Europe  https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-lockdown-sceptics-get-wrong-about-sweden

[Thomas J]

23 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

Sweden did not do 'absolutely nothing'. Please read the following article and you will see exactly what they did and it wasn't too dissimilar from the rest of Europe  https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-lockdown-sceptics-get-wrong-about-sweden

johhnybangkok

 

I think you are parsing words.  Sweden did "nothing" meaning they did not require masks, or social distancing, or quarantines.  That does not mean they did not encourage people TO USE SOME COMMON SENSE.  That is my point.  If those MANDATORY use of masks, quarantines, and social separation worked those countries that imposed those measures would have lower covid infections rates.  Spain, Portugal, Belgium, the UK. Switzerland, and France all have higher rates of infection despite imposing those draconian measures.  Now would it be reasonable for countries to advise their citizens to use common sense and wash their hands  YES but Sweden has very effectively shown that those other measures are not only unnecessary but they may even be counter productive.  Some have suggested though unproven that putting people together in close contact with each other in quarantine gives the virus the time it needs in close contact with others to spread. 

Here is what another article said on Sweden vs. Europe. 
https://www.thelocal.se/20200730/face-masks-coronavirus-and-sweden-what-do-we-know-and-whos-said-what

What are the rules on face masks in Sweden?

Sweden's Public Health Agency says there is no need for members of the public to use face masks when in public spaces such as buses or shops. 

 

[johnnybangkok]

22 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

johhnybangkok

 

I think you are parsing words.  Sweden did "nothing" meaning they did not require masks, or social distancing, or quarantines.  That does not mean they did not encourage people TO USE SOME COMMON SENSE.  That is my point.  If those MANDATORY use of masks, quarantines, and social separation worked those countries that imposed those measures would have lower covid infections rates.  Spain, Portugal, Belgium, the UK. Switzerland, and France all have higher rates of infection despite imposing those draconian measures.  Now would it be reasonable for countries to advise their citizens to use common sense and wash their hands  YES but Sweden has very effectively shown that those other measures are not only unnecessary but they may even be counter productive.  Some have suggested though unproven that putting people together in close contact with each other in quarantine gives the virus the time it needs in close contact with others to spread. 

Here is what another article said on Sweden vs. Europe. 
https://www.thelocal.se/20200730/face-masks-coronavirus-and-sweden-what-do-we-know-and-whos-said-what

What are the rules on face masks in Sweden?

Sweden's Public Health Agency says there is no need for members of the public to use face masks when in public spaces such as buses or shops. 

 

Your whole argument is based on having a compliant population who happily accept the recommendations of the government/scientists. This is obvioulsy wishful thinking for the likes of the US, UK, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Switzerland, and France who have demostrated on a daily basis they will ignore common sense and scientific advice because it doesn't suit their own ill conceived thoughts/conspracy theories (for gods sake in the UK there are a large number of people who still believe you get Covid from 5G masts). 

Having a compliant populace (see Sweden, Thailand, S. Korea, Taiwan etc) is obviously the ideal scenario but when you don't, what then are your options? I would suggest that these countries you mentioned (and many, many more) were forced into draconian measures simply because 'suggesting' a course of action would have fallen on deaf ears and the virus would have run uncontrolled throughout the populace, creating havoc with their health service resulting in far, far more deaths.  

And your point about 'puting people in close contact with each other in quarantine gives the virus the time it needs in close contact with others to spread' only holds true if someone in that group has already been infected. If no one is infected and you self-isolate/group isolate then you absolutely cannot catch the virus. If however you are in the general populace, the risk is far, far greater because you are exposing yourself to many more potential carriers.  Hence why self-isolation and social distancing measures work, be they voluntary or imposed.

[Thomas J]

13 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

our whole argument is based on having a compliant population who happily accept the recommendations of the government/scientists.

Johhnybangkok,  

You remind me of the person who pulled wings off a fly and when the person clapped his hands and the fly did not fly off concluded that the pulling of wings caused the fly to go deaf. You really want to try and shovel that Sweden has a lower covid rate than a good part of Europe because they are more obedient?

The reality is that Sweden did not impose the draconian measures and has a lower covid infection than Spain, Portugal, the UK, France, Switzerland, and Belgium.  Saying that is because Sweden's people are "compliant" where those others are not is just trying to twist common sense to match your predisposed opinion that those measures work.  The other unknown is how accurate any of those numbers really are.  The USA and many other nations tests far more.  Also it is known that the death rate in the USA is skewed since hospitals were PAID EXTRA for Covid cases. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/

 

In terms of countries with low Covid rates like Thailand is also a misdirection.  Heck you can't even get the Thai's to wear a motorcycle helmet. Almost every country with very low covid rates of infection and death and these are the lowest have several factors in common.  They are HOT CLIMATES AND HAVE YOUNG POPULATIONS. Here are the countries with the lowest reported covid infections Notice the attributes they share in common.  Th.  It is not that the Vietnamese or Thai's are somehow more obedient.  Also I question how accurate the actual numbers are compared to those in the USA, the UK, or France.  After all, North Korea reports ZERO covid cases. China with a population almost 4 times the USA states they have a very low Covid rate only 60 per million Do you really believe that?  

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Finally all of the numbers are suspect.  The vast majority of patients who die from Covid are older and have

preexisting health problems.   With hospitals being paid more to classify patients as Covid the real question is DID THOSE PATIENTS DIE FROM COVID OR WITH COVID IN THEIR SYSTEM.  Case in point is Elizabeth Warrens brother.  He was 86 had cancer for years, and was already in the hospital being for respiratory distress and was in the hospital for three weeks prior to his death.  However he is listed as a Covid victim despite the fact that his pre-existing respiratory problems and/or cancer could easily have been the cause but without definitive proof and there is no reference to an autopsy the easy thing to do was to just label his death from cororona virus. 

 

 

 

China

86,021

+24

4,634

81,024

363

12

60

3

160,000,000

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stevenl]

3 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Johhnybangkok,  

You remind me of the person who pulled wings off a fly and when the person clapped his hands and the fly did not fly off concluded that the pulling of wings caused the fly to go deaf. You really want to try and shovel that Sweden has a lower covid rate than a good part of Europe because they are more obedient?

The reality is that Sweden did not impose the draconian measures and has a lower covid infection than Spain, Portugal, the UK, France, Switzerland, and Belgium.  Saying that is because Sweden's people are "compliant" where those others are not is just trying to twist common sense to match your predisposed opinion that those measures work.  The other unknown is how accurate any of those numbers really are.  The USA and many other nations tests far more.  Also it is known that the death rate in the USA is skewed since hospitals were PAID EXTRA for Covid cases. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/

 

In terms of countries with low Covid rates like Thailand is also a misdirection.  Heck you can't even get the Thai's to wear a motorcycle helmet. Almost every country with very low covid rates of infection and death and these are the lowest have several factors in common.  They are HOT CLIMATES AND HAVE YOUNG POPULATIONS. Here are the countries with the lowest reported covid infections Notice the attributes they share in common.  Th.  It is not that the Vietnamese or Thai's are somehow more obedient.  Also I question how accurate the actual numbers are compared to those in the USA, the UK, or France.  After all, North Korea reports ZERO covid cases. China with a population almost 4 times the USA states they have a very low Covid rate only 60 per million Do you really believe that?  

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Finally all of the numbers are suspect.  The vast majority of patients who die from Covid are older and have

preexisting health problems.   With hospitals being paid more to classify patients as Covid the real question is DID THOSE PATIENTS DIE FROM COVID OR WITH COVID IN THEIR SYSTEM.  Case in point is Elizabeth Warrens brother.  He was 86 had cancer for years, and was already in the hospital being for respiratory distress and was in the hospital for three weeks prior to his death.  However he is listed as a Covid victim despite the fact that his pre-existing respiratory problems and/or cancer could easily have been the cause but without definitive proof and there is no reference to an autopsy the easy thing to do was to just label his death from cororona virus. 

 

 

 

China

86,021

+24

4,634

81,024

363

12

60

3

160,000,000

 

Time for a reality check.

 

Compare like for like, so sweden with denmark, finland and Norway. But maybe you want to claim those countries have lower case and death numbers due to a warmer climate?

 

Hospitals get extra money for covid-19 cases, not for covid deaths.

 

Look at mask wearing in Thailand, and then claim they're not obedient.

 

Japan a young population?

 

Your reasoning makes no sense, and is totally flawed.

[Rimmer]

Some off topic bickering has been removed:

 

Biden blasts Trump as U.S. COVID-19 cases mount and Pence staff endures outbreak

[johnnybangkok]

2 hours ago, Thomas J said:

Johhnybangkok,  

You remind me of the person who pulled wings off a fly and when the person clapped his hands and the fly did not fly off concluded that the pulling of wings caused the fly to go deaf. You really want to try and shovel that Sweden has a lower covid rate than a good part of Europe because they are more obedient?

The reality is that Sweden did not impose the draconian measures and has a lower covid infection than Spain, Portugal, the UK, France, Switzerland, and Belgium.  Saying that is because Sweden's people are "compliant" where those others are not is just trying to twist common sense to match your predisposed opinion that those measures work.  The other unknown is how accurate any of those numbers really are.  The USA and many other nations tests far more.  Also it is known that the death rate in the USA is skewed since hospitals were PAID EXTRA for Covid cases. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/

 

In terms of countries with low Covid rates like Thailand is also a misdirection.  Heck you can't even get the Thai's to wear a motorcycle helmet. Almost every country with very low covid rates of infection and death and these are the lowest have several factors in common.  They are HOT CLIMATES AND HAVE YOUNG POPULATIONS. Here are the countries with the lowest reported covid infections Notice the attributes they share in common.  Th.  It is not that the Vietnamese or Thai's are somehow more obedient.  Also I question how accurate the actual numbers are compared to those in the USA, the UK, or France.  After all, North Korea reports ZERO covid cases. China with a population almost 4 times the USA states they have a very low Covid rate only 60 per million Do you really believe that?  

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Finally all of the numbers are suspect.  The vast majority of patients who die from Covid are older and have

preexisting health problems.   With hospitals being paid more to classify patients as Covid the real question is DID THOSE PATIENTS DIE FROM COVID OR WITH COVID IN THEIR SYSTEM.  Case in point is Elizabeth Warrens brother.  He was 86 had cancer for years, and was already in the hospital being for respiratory distress and was in the hospital for three weeks prior to his death.  However he is listed as a Covid victim despite the fact that his pre-existing respiratory problems and/or cancer could easily have been the cause but without definitive proof and there is no reference to an autopsy the easy thing to do was to just label his death from cororona virus. 

 

 

 

China

86,021

+24

4,634

81,024

363

12

60

3

160,000,000

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you had bothered to read the Spectator article I posted you will clearly see it says 'You see, the authorities there didn’t need to order people to stay at home to reduce their contacts, Swedes just do it anyway. Data on mobility shows that the populations of Sweden and the UK reduced their movements and interactions by a similar amount at the start of the pandemic. The difference? We were compelled to do it'. Therefore, A COMPLIANT POPULATION.

 

S. Korea (not North), Taiwan and even Thailand have all instigated rigorous protocals which are by far, followed to the letter. This COMPLIANT population may not be forced to wear a helmet (anecdotal as usual) but they have shown that when asked, EVERYONE does social distancing, self-isolation and will wear a mask. By being COMPLIANT and following the scientifically recommended remedies to this pandemic, all of these countries have kept their Covid infections and deaths down to very low numbers (much, much better than Sweden) but I don't hear you extolling their vitues. Perhaps having a hot climate and a young population (doesn't explain Japan though) are helpful factors (Spain, France and much of Europe has been in summer so therefore very hot) but more probable is their compliance to what needs to be done .....and it isn't what Sweden is doing for sure. But these success stories don't fit into your narrative do they so they can be dismissed off-hand without looking at their successes. You need to check your confirmation bias.   

 

Oh and by the way, the article also states 'Sweden has an array of other inbuilt advantages: its relatively low population density compared to other wealthy European nations (England is 17 times more densely populated) being the most obvious. While 40 per cent of Swedish households are single person, compare that to just 28 per cent in England. These factors gave Sweden a huge advantage long before the virus ever appeared on its shores. Interpersonal interactions, after all, are how the virus spreads: reduce them and you reduce the number of infections'.

 

And last but not least let me run a scenario past you. You are diagnosed with terminal cancer and have been given 3 months to live but 2 months in you are unlucky enough to be shot and die from the wound. What do they put as your cause of death? Death by gun=shot obviously. It's exactly the same with Covid. 

 

Anyway. As StevenL has already mentioned, you obviously don't want to hear this and are pulling stats, comparison and anecdotal nonsense from wherever you want so this will be my last reply on the subject. If you want to expand your knowldge on this subject, may I suggest you go into these debates by not trying to prove your firmly held point but let facts and presented information shape your opinion. That's what respected scientists do and why I'll keep listening to them.

Edited November 2, 2020 by johnnybangkok

[Sujo]

6 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

If you had bothered to read the Spectator article I posted you will clearly see it says 'You see, the authorities there didn’t need to order people to stay at home to reduce their contacts, Swedes just do it anyway. Data on mobility shows that the populations of Sweden and the UK reduced their movements and interactions by a similar amount at the start of the pandemic. The difference? We were compelled to do it'. Therefore, A COMPLIANT POPULATION.

 

S. Korea (not North), Taiwan and even Thailand have all instigated rigorous protocals which are by far, followed to the letter. This COMPLIANT population may not be forced to wear a helmet (anecdotal as usual) but they have shown that when asked, EVERYONE does social distancing, self-isolation and will wear a mask. By being COMPLIANT and following the scientifically recommended remedies to this pandemic, all of these countries have kept their Covid infections and deaths down to very low numbers (much, much better than Sweden) but I don't hear you extolling their vitues. Perhaps having a hot climate and a young population (doesn't explain Japan though) are helpful factors (Spain, France and much of Europe has been in summer so therefore very hot) but more probable is their compliance to what needs to be done .....and it isn't what Sweden is doing for sure. But these success stories don't fit into your narrative do they so they can be dismissed off-hand without looking at their successes. YOu need to check your confirmation bias.   

 

Oh and by the way, the article also states 'Sweden has an array of other inbuilt advantages: its relatively low population density compared to other wealthy European nations (England is 17 times more densely populated) being the most obvious. While 40 per cent of Swedish households are single person, compare that to just 28 per cent in England. These factors gave Sweden a huge advantage long before the virus ever appeared on its shores. Interpersonal interactions, after all, are how the virus spreads: reduce them and you reduce the number of infections'.

 

And last but not least let me run a scenario past you. You are diagnosed with terminal cancer and have been given 3 months to live but 2 months in you are unlucky enough to be shot and die from the wound. What do they put as your cause of death? Death by gun=shot obviously. It's exactly the same with Covid. 

 

Anyway. As StevenL has already mentioned, you obviously don't want to hear this and are pulling stats, comparison and anecdotal nonsense from wherever you want so this will be my last reply on the subject. If you want to expand your knowldge on this subject, may I suggest you go into these debates by not trying to prove your firmly held point but let facts and presented information shape your opinion. That's what respected scientists do and why I'kk keep listening to them.

So basically people who follow science and common sense do ok. Those that refuse to listen to experts and think no one can tell them what to do, so just do opposite, do bad.

 

There, i dumbed it down for trump supporters.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Sujo

[candide]

34 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

StevenL

 

So somehow his comments in March are not valid?  Again, I challenge you to explain. 

 

IF MASKS ARE EFFECTIVE, THAN WHY DO COUNTRIES THAT IMPOSE WEARING A MASK HAVE COVID AT ALL?

 

IF MASKS ARE EFFECTIVE THAN WHY DOES THE UK, IRELAND, BELGIUM, SPAIN, ITALY, PORTUGAL, AND FRANCE HAVE HIGHER RATES OF COVID INFECTION THAN SWEDEN WHERE MASKS ARE NOT REQUIRED. 

IF JUST WEARING A MASK WILL STOP COVID, WHY DO YOU NEED A VACCINE

Also as a follow up on the hospital and them being incentives  to find Covid  Common sense tells you if the hospital is getting that extra money they sure as heck are going to list the cause of death to be Covid. 

 

Using a non Covid example.  If you have a person who has high blood pressure, diabetes, pneumonia, and the person contracts dengue fever.   Did the person die from Dengue or from their existing conditions which were already life threatening. 

Here is a study from Italy  It shows that the vast majority of deaths are people with commodities. The same has been found in the USA.  So if a person has high blood pressure, heart disease, and diabetes and is hospitalized, and either is diagnosed or later found to have contracted covid while in the hospital.  Their death will be listed from Covid.  Now did they die from Covid, or with Covid.   If the same person went to the hospital and later died and was not covid positive their death might be recorded as a heart attack, or respiratory failure.  But suddenly once they get Covid the media, hospitals, and government agencies are reporting it as if it was the primary or only cause of death and that is just not proven. 

 An in depth study on patients admitted to hospital and later deceased with the coronavirus (COVID-19) infection revealed that the majority of cases showed one or more comorbidities. 62 percent of reported deceased COVID-19 patients suffered from three or more pre-existing health conditions, and 20.4 percent from two conditions. Only in four percent of COVID-19 deaths no prior health conditions were recorded.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1110906/comorbidities-in-covid-19-deceased-patients-in-italy/







 

You can try as many twisted arguments as you want, it will not change facts.

Fact is about maths: the virus diffusion is function of the number of contacts, and the only way to fight it  is to reduce the number of contact by whatever way (mask, distanciation, lockdown etc...). 

Because of the same maths, virus diffusion is characterised by outbursts and waves, and the only way to fight it is to prevent the wave from becoming bigger. It is difficult to avoid because it grows suddenly very quickly.

 

European countries have been relatively successful in fighting the first wave, as data shows. We'll see how they can fight the second wave. You forgot to mention that one of the main reason for the second wave is that young people did not follow the guidelines and interacted without mask, or stayed so close to each other that masks were ineffective.

 

As to your hosputal conspiracy theory it is also contradicted by facts. Excess deaths are much higher than registered Covid deaths, so there's no way they could have been overcounted. The reality is probably that they have been underestimated. It has been objected to previous posts several times.

https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

 

What is quite obvious is that your only motivation is to support Trump's claim whatever fact is presented to you.

[Thomas J]

johnnybangkok

 

Again I say you have Zero logic and are pulling things such as the Swedes being compliant out of the air.  Again I challenge you if Masks, Social Distancing, and Quarantine work, why is Sweden that has no such mandate having a lower rate of infection than the European countries.  Put another way, if those draconian measures work, why is France, Portugal, Spain, England, Switzerland, and Belgium experiencing a huge surge in Covid cases.  The "experts" also said there was "nothing to worry about"  They can speculate all they want but the empirical evidence is that those measures had little to no impact on deterring the spread of covid.  Yes Sweden has a less dense population than the UK.  However take French Guinea  It has a population density that is only 1/7th that of Sweden yet it has the 6th highest Covid infection rate in the world.  

Then again, even if your argument about population density has any merit, it means that population density not the use of or non use of masks is the critical factor. 

Again if masks, social distancing and quarantine were required, Sweden not requiring any of them should have by your logic and explosive Covid infection rate. And it does not.  

 

 

[placeholder]

39 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

johnnybangkok

 

Again I say you have Zero logic and are pulling things such as the Swedes being compliant out of the air.  Again I challenge you if Masks, Social Distancing, and Quarantine work, why is Sweden that has no such mandate having a lower rate of infection than the European countries.  Put another way, if those draconian measures work, why is France, Portugal, Spain, England, Switzerland, and Belgium experiencing a huge surge in Covid cases.  The "experts" also said there was "nothing to worry about"  They can speculate all they want but the empirical evidence is that those measures had little to no impact on deterring the spread of covid.  Yes Sweden has a less dense population than the UK.  However take French Guinea  It has a population density that is only 1/7th that of Sweden yet it has the 6th highest Covid infection rate in the world.  

Then again, even if your argument about population density has any merit, it means that population density not the use of or non use of masks is the critical factor. 

Again if masks, social distancing and quarantine were required, Sweden not requiring any of them should have by your logic and explosive Covid infection rate. And it does not.  

 

 

Actually Sweden's infections are spiking at  a level far greater than either of its 2 neighbors, Norway and Finland. At least i think so but it's hard to be sure without knowing the level of testing.. It's good to remember that the total number of reported infections is dependent on how much testing is actually being done.

This despite the fact that Sweden has a distinct advantage in have the highest percentage of residents who live alone. There are lots of reasons why Swedes have certain built-in advantages. For one, it has the world's highest percentage of those who live alone.

 

Also, making total area the denominator and population the numerator is so simplistic as to be useless. Most of French Guiana is rain forest. Not a lot of people there. On the other hand...

Half of its 290,691 inhabitants in 2020 lived in the metropolitan area of Cayenne, its capital. 98.9% of the land territory of French Guiana is covered by forests,^[3] a large part of which is primeval rainforest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Guiana#:~:text=It has a very low,area of Cayenne%2C its capital.

 

About 61000 citizens live within the city limits of Cayenne of 23.6 kilometers. So if you do the division you'll see that the population density there is over 2500 people per square kilometer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayenne

 

Also, Swedes are very good about obeying the government's guidelines. It's likely that Swedes are observing social distancing rules because this year they are experiencing a record low number of flu cases:

Sweden reports drop in seasonal flu following COVID-19 restrictions

Seasonal flu in Sweden is at a record low, suggesting that Swedes are abiding by social distancing guidelines. And as COVID-19 infections spike in the United States and worldwide, Sweden now has one of the lowest infection rates in Europe.

https://www.milforddailynews.com/news/20201031/sweden-reports-drop-in-seasonal-flu-following-covid-19-restrictions

So yes, social distancing does work. Scandinavians in general have a level of trust in their government that would dismay the average American.

Edited November 2, 2020 by placeholder

[Thomas J]

13 hours ago, placeholder said:

So yes, social distancing does work. Scandinavians in general have a level of trust in their government that would dismay the average American.

 

13 hours ago, placeholder said:

So yes, social distancing does work. Scandinavians in general have a level of trust in their government

placeholder

 

I guess that is why they trust the government when they say that they dont need to wear masks or live in quarantine. 

Also in terms of Sweden and French Guiana 31% of the population lives in the largest 7 urban areas with over 20% living in its two largest cities.  So which is it.  Swedens advantage to population density or Swedens belief in its government mandate not to have to use draconian measures.  Again, you are like the person who pulls wings off a fly and claps its hands and the fly does not fly off and he concludes that it proves that the fly is deaf.  You are hypotheticating  the reasons why Sweden has a lower rate of infection than other European nations to match your predisposed opinion.  You are ignoring that if those draconian measures such as masks, quarantines and rigid social distancing ACTUALLY WERE EFFECTIVE the UK, France, Portugal, Belgium, Switzerland and Spain would not have high covid rates.  BUT THEY DO. 

[placeholder]

15 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

 

placeholder

 

I guess that is why they trust the government when they say that they dont need to wear masks or live in quarantine. 

Also in terms of Sweden and French Guiana 31% of the population lives in the largest 7 urban areas with over 20% living in its two largest cities.  So which is it.  Swedens advantage to population density or Swedens belief in its government mandate not to have to use draconian measures.  Again, you are like the person who pulls wings off a fly and claps its hands and the fly does not fly off and he concludes that it proves that the fly is deaf.  You are hypotheticating  the reasons why Sweden has a lower rate of infection than other European nations to match your predisposed opinion.  You are ignoring that if those draconian measures such as masks, quarantines and rigid social distancing ACTUALLY WERE EFFECTIVE the UK, France, Portugal, Belgium, Switzerland and Spain would not have high covid rates.  BUT THEY DO. 

It says that they aren't required to. But it does recommend that they  observe social distancing.

What you seem to ignore is that those standards were relaxed during the summer in order to promote tourism. That was the foolishness that led to the present situation. Sweden is not such a big tourist mecca.

And I've noticed that you've dropped your Guyana example.

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by placeholder

[stevenl]

52 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

 

placeholder

 

I guess that is why they trust the government when they say that they dont need to wear masks or live in quarantine. 

Also in terms of Sweden and French Guiana 31% of the population lives in the largest 7 urban areas with over 20% living in its two largest cities.  So which is it.  Swedens advantage to population density or Swedens belief in its government mandate not to have to use draconian measures.  Again, you are like the person who pulls wings off a fly and claps its hands and the fly does not fly off and he concludes that it proves that the fly is deaf.  You are hypotheticating  the reasons why Sweden has a lower rate of infection than other European nations to match your predisposed opinion.  You are ignoring that if those draconian measures such as masks, quarantines and rigid social distancing ACTUALLY WERE EFFECTIVE the UK, France, Portugal, Belgium, Switzerland and Spain would not have high covid rates.  BUT THEY DO. 

French Guyana is a comparison that doesn't make any sense. Norway, Denmark and Finland comparison would make sense, but you refuse that, wonder why ????.

 

Did you ever consider that in Thailand, Korea, Taiwan, China people are actually social distancing, wearing masks and quarantines are required and observed? In none of the countries you mention, France, Portugal, Belgium Switzerland and Spain that is the case.

 

"You are hypotheticating  the reasons why Sweden has a lower rate of infection than other European nations to match your predisposed opinion." Yes, we all are to a certain extent, but I'm sure that there will be extensive research done into this in the future. But to accuse others of hypotheticating  (I know what you mean, but is that a word?) while doing the same yourself is hypocritical.

Edited November 3, 2020 by stevenl

[placeholder]

26 minutes ago, placeholder said:

It says that they aren't required to. But it does recommend that they  observe social distancing.

What you seem to ignore is that those standards were relaxed during the summer in order to promote tourism. That was the foolishness that led to the present situation. Sweden is not such a big tourist mecca.

And I've noticed that you've dropped your Guyana example.

 

Here are three graphs listing total daily infections in Sweden, Norway and Finland. Sweden has about double the population of its 2 numbers? Even if you dived it's numbers by 2, the total is a lot higher than in Finland and Norway. More than twice as high. And if the case of Florida, Texas, and Arizona are anything to go by, it takes almost 2 months for hospitalizations and deaths to begin to rise. So it's still early days.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/norway/

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/finland/

[Thomas J]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

placeholder

Placeholder

You seem intent on comparing Sweden to Denmark and Finland.  That is despite the fact that the crucial fact is that Sweden COMPARED TO OTHER EUROPEAN NATIONS has a lower rate of Covid infections.  If doing nothing was so horrible, Swedens rate of infection should be hugely higher or conversely if countries requiring the wearing masks, social distancing, and quarantine should be markedly lower . READ THIS SLOWLY SO YOU UNDERSTAND.  THEY ARE NOT.  21 Countries in Europe have higher covid rates than Sweden.  Spin it whatever way you wish that maybe Swedens have an immunity because of eating meat balls but the reality is that wearing masks, social distancing and quarantines did little to nothing to make their experience superior to Sweden who did not require those. 

 

 

 

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1110187/coronavirus-incidence-europe-by-country/

[stevenl]

6 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Placeholder

You seem intent on comparing Sweden to Denmark and Finland.  That is despite the fact that the crucial fact is that Sweden COMPARED TO OTHER EUROPEAN NATIONS has a lower rate of Covid infections.  If doing nothing was so horrible, Swedens rate of infection should be hugely higher or conversely if countries requiring the wearing masks, social distancing, and quarantine should be markedly lower . READ THIS SLOWLY SO YOU UNDERSTAND.  THEY ARE NOT.  21 Countries in Europe have higher covid rates than Sweden.  Spin it whatever way you wish that maybe Swedens have an immunity because of eating meat balls but the reality is that wearing masks, social distancing and quarantines did little to nothing to make their experience superior to Sweden who did not require those. 

 

 

 

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1110187/coronavirus-incidence-europe-by-country/

What don't you understand about comparing like for like. Denmark, Finland and Norway are the countries that resemble sweden the most. How does their rate of infections compare? How do their containment measures compare?

 

Compare Netherlands with Germany, Belgium and luxembourg, France with Spain, italy and Portugal, etc.

Edited November 3, 2020 by stevenl

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, stevenl said:

What don't you understand about comparing like for like. Denmark, Finland and Norway are the countries that resemble sweden the most. How does their rate of infections compare?

 

Compare Netherlands with Germany, Belgium and luxembourg, France with Spain, italy and Portugal, etc.

Actually particularly Finland and Norway. And Estonia and Latvia, too.  Unlike those other 5  nations, Denmark is mostly habitable and is quite densely populated throughout. 

And of course comparing countries with shared borders, similar clients, but different policies is a far more significant way to unearth what differences, if any, differing policies make. Estonia and Latvia have imposed very strict measures to control Covid and they are doing far better than the nations that they share borders with. Nations that were far less strict in their response to covid.

 

[candide]

21 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Placeholder

You seem intent on comparing Sweden to Denmark and Finland.  That is despite the fact that the crucial fact is that Sweden COMPARED TO OTHER EUROPEAN NATIONS has a lower rate of Covid infections.  If doing nothing was so horrible, Swedens rate of infection should be hugely higher or conversely if countries requiring the wearing masks, social distancing, and quarantine should be markedly lower . READ THIS SLOWLY SO YOU UNDERSTAND.  THEY ARE NOT.  21 Countries in Europe have higher covid rates than Sweden.  Spin it whatever way you wish that maybe Swedens have an immunity because of eating meat balls but the reality is that wearing masks, social distancing and quarantines did little to nothing to make their experience superior to Sweden who did not require those. 

 

 

 

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1110187/coronavirus-incidence-europe-by-country/

Twisted logic.

 

The right question is: considering that the outburst had already started when lockdowns have been decided in Europe, would he the outcome have been worse without lockdown. The answer is surely yes.

A large share of cases during the first wave have been infected BEFORE lockdowns were implemented, or have been infected by relatives already infected. On top of it, masks were not available at the beginning, so people who worked in shops, etc...were not protected and went on being infected. After the first wave, distancing and wearing masks helped keeping very low numbers.

 

Same twisted logic in your comments about the second wave. The second wave is occurring because young people did not respect distancing and masks guidelines.