'It'll be carnage': British companies dread a Brexit border breakdown

[7by7 14,310]

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

I think that it's not hard to see that the ratio of "informed" (elected) politicians to those that are ill-informed has been declining for years, although a being "well informed" MP does not necessarily guarantee that an MP will serve the best interests of his voters, anyway. I think MPs are elected if they are seen as the candidates most likely to vote for the interests of individual voters, whether these interests, or policies, are local or national. 

 

How wonderfully naïve!

 

Individual MPs have been seen as mere lobby fodder by their party leaders and whips since at least the 18th century! Follow the party line or at best have the whip withdrawn, be too critical of your leader and be expelled.

 

There may be a handful of voters in any constituency who vote for the individual; but most vote for the party regardless. Where I live the Tories could put up a one legged donkey and it would win. Even floating voters tend to vote for the party rather than the candidate. That is why there are so few independent MPs elected.

 

6 hours ago, nauseus said:

I can agree that the referendum result has highlighted a division but I think that had been there for years. I would say that If the government had just decided to leave (with no referendum) then the kickback from remain would have been harder than it has been but that there would have been more justification for it. 

 

If any government had decided to leave without reference to the people then you are probably right. Look at the resentment caused by the government forcing it's WA on us without giving us a say. I include May's attempts to do that as well as the agreement Boris has since decided he signed with his fingers crossed behind his back.

 

But had Remain won in 2016 I suspect that many Brexiteers would have been echoing Farage's call for another referendum when he thought Remain was going to win by 52% to 48%. Nigel Farage: Narrow Remain win may lead to second referendum

Quote

The question of a second referendum was raised by Mr Farage in an interview with the Mirror in which he said: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way

 

As we all know, when Leave won by that margin he hailed it as a magnificent victory!

[nauseus 16,205]

7 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

They are both campaigns dealing with many arguments for and against.

You are splitting hairs again. You either agree with democracy or you dont.

 

You can't seem to take in and accept what I say. Just as you can't take in and accept the referendum result. 

 

 

[7by7 14,310]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

More 'getting on with it' from HMG:

 Really?  A trade show and discussions. 

 

More clutching at straws. The deals signed so far will not get anywhere near replacing what we will lose if there is no deal with the EU.

 

OK, there are other potential deals in the pipeline such as the Japanese deal, which has yet to be confirmed by the Japanese parliament and wont result in much, if any, additional trade than that already carried out between us under the EU agreement!

 

As Johnson has shown he is willing to renege on international agreements and treaties whenever it suits him; who will trust him to stick to one he signs with them?

[Rookiescot 11,534]

8 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

You can't seem to take in and accept what I say. Just as you can't take in and accept the referendum result. 

 

 

Perfectly aware of the referendum result but a nice try at deflection.

So do you believe in democracy or not?

[nauseus 16,205]

7 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

How wonderfully naïve!

 

Individual MPs have been seen as mere lobby fodder by their party leaders and whips since at least the 18th century! Follow the party line or at best have the whip withdrawn, be too critical of your leader and be expelled.

 

There may be a handful of voters in any constituency who vote for the individual; but most vote for the party regardless. Where I live the Tories could put up a one legged donkey and it would win. Even floating voters tend to vote for the party rather than the candidate. That is why there are so few independent MPs elected.

 

 

If any government had decided to leave without reference to the people then you are probably right. Look at the resentment caused by the government forcing it's WA on us without giving us a say. I include May's attempts to do that as well as the agreement Boris has since decided he signed with his fingers crossed behind his back.

 

But had Remain won in 2016 I suspect that many Brexiteers would have been echoing Farage's call for another referendum when he thought Remain was going to win by 52% to 48%. Nigel Farage: Narrow Remain win may lead to second referendum

 

As we all know, when Leave won by that margin he hailed it as a magnificent victory!

 

I was referring to the low number of seemingly "informed" politicians these days (like some of your naïve heroes and heroines no doubt). Some of the goons exposed these days are just a national embarrassment. The uses and effects of the party whips are a different issue. Smart individual politicians will stand out, whip or no whip.   

 

If Remain had won there would not have been a call for another referendum, whatever Farage did. Unlike remainers, leavers are capable of respecting a democratic vote.

 

It was indeed a magnificent victory! Hurrah!

[nauseus 16,205]

6 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Perfectly aware of the referendum result but a nice try at deflection.

So do you believe in democracy or not?

 

Of course I believe in democracy.

[evadgib 17,468]

10 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

who will trust him to stick to one he signs with them?

Just about everyone.

HTH

[7by7 14,310]

34 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Referendums suit single issues. General elections do not. That's why the word 'general' is included. 

 Not really.

 

They are called 'general' elections because all registered voters in the general population can vote.

 

Different from an election, such as a by-election, where only a specific section of registered voters can vote.

 

There have, of course, been single issue general elections. Heath's February 1974 "Me or the miners" one; Johnson's December 2019 "Back my WA or sack me" one both spring to mind.

[Rookiescot 11,534]

12 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Of course I believe in democracy.

Then you should have no problem with Scotland having another referendum then. 

[nauseus 16,205]

12 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 Not really.

 

They are called 'general' elections because all registered voters in the general population can vote.

 

Different from an election, such as a by-election, where only a specific section of registered voters can vote.

 

There have, of course, been single issue general elections. Heath's February 1974 "Me or the miners" one; Johnson's December 2019 "Back my WA or sack me" one both spring to mind.

 

Very wobbly now.

[nauseus 16,205]

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Then you should have no problem with Scotland having another referendum then. 

 

Every year then?

[Loiner 9,661]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Every year then?

No, only until they get their desired result, then it will have been the final one.

[7by7 14,310]

9 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I was referring to the low number of seemingly "informed" politicians these days (like some of your naïve heroes and heroines no doubt). Some of the goons exposed these days are just a national embarrassment. The uses and effects of the party whips are a different issue. Smart individual politicians will stand out, whip or no whip.  

 Then you are indeed both naïve and ill informed about our party system and the power of the whips! But right about the goons you call a national embarrassment. But 'twas ever thus; in all parties.

 

Having said that, their are some backbenchers who do stand out, such as Frank Field, now Baron Field, but they are, regrettably, few and far between.

 

16 minutes ago, nauseus said:

If Remain had won there would not have been a call for another referendum, whatever Farage did.

 If you believe that I have a bridge for sale! The 2016 referendum was called because Cameron was afraid of losing votes to UKIP; do you really think that the same threat and pressure would not have resulted in another one? 

 

18 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Unlike remainers, leavers are capable of respecting a democratic vote.

Remainers, or most of us at least, respect the result; but in a democracy we are allowed to voice our criticism of it.

 

In a democracy we are also allowed to campaign for a say on the effects of that result via a referendum on the WA. 

 

It is the Brexiteer attempts to stifle all debate on the subject that is undemocratic.

 

20 minutes ago, nauseus said:

It was indeed a magnificent victory! Hurrah!

I know the Brexiteer thinking: 52% to 48% victory for Remain; too close to call. 52% to 48% victory for leave; magnificent victory!

 

Yes, it was a victory for your side; but hardly magnificent. A narrow scrape is more accurate.

 

[Rookiescot 11,534]

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Every year then?

No. There has not been one every year as you are perfectly aware.

However polls now show a substantial majority in favor of another referendum.

Are you going to deny them democracy? Or will you, as you profess to believe in democracy, support the wishes of the Scottish electorate?

[Loiner 9,661]

That chaos of the original post looks like it will actually be in German industry and not at the UK docks. Can they beat down Macron & Co to save the fatherland's business in time?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1354080/brexit-news-eu-uk-trade-deal-no-deal-brexit-germany-london