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Passport withheld by authorities - How to to renew extension of stay...


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Too start off with, it is against the law for anyone to hold your passport except the country which issued it. The passport is your personal property. With being in a foreign country I see this is a way to keep your friend until the costs are paid which is very high for a piece of glass.

There are no condo rules anywhere with rules which say's anything about emergency or fire equipment. If this is the case anyone would be charged for breaking the glass and using it, even when fire broke out. No reasonable judge will charge you and your friend if you do have proof the fire equipment had not worked for several years with the resent picture you have shown.    

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You are correct that you never actually said you were in Court. You do write in a first hand account as if you were there which is why I asked the question I asked.

 

This story still makes no sense. A lock doesn't cost 30k baht nor do several locks. It sounds more like you did more than open cabinets or look at the equip. Sounds like you two were messing with the equip or set the system into alarm which happens automatically when you open valves or play with the equip. How would they have known you did anything otherwise especially since you claim the CCTV feed shows nothing. I'm not defending the condo by any means but this story so far just doesnt seem complete, but maybe I'm wrong. 

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The only ones that can legally hold a persons passport is the issuing country or any court in any country where a person commits an offence and faces charges and there is a risk of that person fleeing that country. If he goes to his embassy they will tell him that any court has the power to hold a persons passport until such time that the court case is finished. You will find that his embassy already knows about his passport being held by the court as the normal procedure is that the courts notify the embassies so that the person cannot apply for another passport or emergency travel documents and flee the country.

25 minutes ago, bradiston said:

His first stop should be his embassy to report his missing passport, I would have thought. They might have something to say about it. If it's a UK passport, it remains the property of the Crown. Ironically it should also be reported to the police.

He has not lost his passport and his passport is not missing. The court is holding his passport. So it cannot be reported to the police as a missing or lost passport.

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6 hours ago, chainarong said:

No one is allowed to interfere in any fire appliance , anywhere, you report the matter to the fire authorities, then if the building burns down you can say what you did.

Good thinking. That will make everybody involved, dead or alive, feel better "if the building burns down". Blindly following rules/laws is not always the right thing to do. 

 

Every man has a duty and responsibility to keep his family safe. If opening a cabinet is what it took to escalate the situation to oversight then he is justified. This isn't a motel room for the night, this is his residence. 

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11 hours ago, Russell17au said:

The only ones that can legally hold a persons passport is the issuing country or any court in any country where a person commits an offence and faces charges and there is a risk of that person fleeing that country. If he goes to his embassy they will tell him that any court has the power to hold a persons passport until such time that the court case is finished. You will find that his embassy already knows about his passport being held by the court as the normal procedure is that the courts notify the embassies so that the person cannot apply for another passport or emergency travel documents and flee the country.

He has not lost his passport and his passport is not missing. The court is holding his passport. So it cannot be reported to the police as a missing or lost passport.

Yes, it seems I was wrong. But can they, or he, not just pay the fine and whatever else, and settle the dispute? A lawyer will cost him a lot more than 30k. And how has one person managed to leave Thailand while the other is stuck here? Or are they one and the same person? I give up.

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These hoses are there for the Brigade to fight fires and will be pressurised when needed by the Brigade! Individuals without professional experience should not interfere with them that's why they should be locked. Non professional lay public can at the most check that they are aware of the means of escape routes and in case of fire evacuate as fast as possible not using lifts. Lay public should not attempt to fight fires!

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15 minutes ago, chilly07 said:

These hoses are there for the Brigade to fight fires and will be pressurised when needed by the Brigade! Individuals without professional experience should not interfere with them that's why they should be locked. Non professional lay public can at the most check that they are aware of the means of escape routes and in case of fire evacuate as fast as possible not using lifts. Lay public should not attempt to fight fires!

by the time the fire service turns up it will be too late, that Buakhao fire I recall they turned up 30 minutes later and they are only in 3rd road

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39 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

by the time the fire service turns up it will be too late, that Buakhao fire I recall they turned up 30 minutes later and they are only in 3rd road

 

  We had a grass verge fire out the back of our house a few months back. A power cable between two poles snapped and it fell to the ground setting the grass alight. The fire had almost burnt itself out by the time the fire brigade got there maybe twenty minutes later, despite being about three kms away, and no heavy traffic. 

 

  What made it even more incredible was, on the opposite side of the road there is a compound which houses firemen and their families, but no tenders. Some of them came down to watch, as it wasn't their patch they just stood around looking.

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10 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

quite right 

It seems not so. Although embassies warn against using a passport as surety against a hire agreement for instance, some concede that its surrender as bail collateral, or conditions of bail, is sometimes required by a court.

 

From an article in Phuket News 2016, googled up.

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4 hours ago, chilly07 said:

These hoses are there for the Brigade to fight fires and will be pressurised when needed by the Brigade! Individuals without professional experience should not interfere with them that's why they should be locked. Non professional lay public can at the most check that they are aware of the means of escape routes and in case of fire evacuate as fast as possible not using lifts. Lay public should not attempt to fight fires!

 

This is certainly utmost and dangerous nonsense to say. Do not listen to people spreading such wrong information.

I joined fire awareness days / fire drill days here in Thailand and they let the residents who joined handle the fire hoses to make sure they understand how to use them in case of a fire. They do not say: ”Do not use them and wait for us to show up”. The opposite is the case , they encourage people to use firefighting equipment quickly and with confidence.

If you find any fire cabinet locked inform the district office and if they do not care inform the Bangkok Metropolitan authority. They make sure that no fire cabinet will be locked.

According to the government inspector there must be sufficient pressure as soon as someone start to use the fire hoses. So it is also nonsense to say that they will be pressurized when needed by the brigade.

 

There is no reason to waste anytime in case of a fire. Try confidently with the fire extinguisher. and if you have help order another one to roll out the fire hose.

 

A fire with some food and oxygen next to it will get out of control after one or two minutes. Never forget that. After not later than two minutes you better run away if you not want to risk being killed from smoke poisoning.

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5 hours ago, Pilotman said:

quite right 

All passports are the property of the issuing government but every court in the world has the legal right to hold the passport of anyone who has been charged with any criminal offence so that the charged person cannot flee the country. I would say that because the other person had fled the country that the court ordered the surrendering of the passport of co-offender to ensure that he does not flee the country. The embassy of the passport issuing country is notified that the court has order the passport be surrendered so that the person cannot go to the embassy and declare that the passport has either been lost or stolen and get a replacement passport or emergency travel documents. If the courts were not allowed to hold the passports then any foreigner in any country would be held in custody without bail until the court proceedings were completed. I would say that if his so called friend had not skipped the country then I believe that his passport would not have been held and he would not have been listed as a "flight risk".

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2 hours ago, zappalot said:

 

This is certainly utmost and dangerous nonsense to say. Do not listen to people spreading such wrong information.

 

I joined fire awareness days / fire drill days here in Thailand and they let the residents who joined handle the fire hoses to make sure they understand how to use them in case of a fire. They do not say: ”Do not use them and wait for us to show up”. The opposite is the case , they encourage people to use firefighting equipment quickly and with confidence.

If you find any fire cabinet locked inform the district office and if they do not care inform the Bangkok Metropolitan authority. They make sure that no fire cabinet will be locked.

 

According to the government inspector there must be sufficient pressure as soon as someone start to use the fire hoses. So it is also nonsense to say that they will be pressurized when needed by the brigade.

 

 

 

There is no reason to waste anytime in case of a fire. Try confidently with the fire extinguisher. and if you have help order another one to roll out the fire hose.

 

 

 

A fire with some food and oxygen next to it will get out of control after one or two minutes. Never forget that. After not later than two minutes you better run away if you not want to risk being killed from smoke poisoning.

 

Even in Australia the fire cabinets ARE locked and the key is normally either beside or above the cabinet in a small holder with an easily breakable glass front. The main reason the cabinets are locked is so that children cannot access the fire fighting equipement

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16 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Even in Australia the fire cabinets ARE locked and the key is normally either beside or above the cabinet in a small holder with an easily breakable glass front. The main reason the cabinets are locked is so that children cannot access the fire fighting equipement

1. Individuals without professional experience should not interfere with them that's why they should be locked.

2.      2. cabinets are locked is so that children cannot access but with key beside to be available in emergency…

 

Is it just me? I see a difference in to generally lock a fire cabinet to prevent any individual from using it And 2nd case to have it locked with the key nearby for emergency. These are two different cases and this is even also legal in Thailand. That's up to the management. But to lock away the fire cabinet in general is not permitted , it is against the law.

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26 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

 I would say that if his so called friend had not skipped the country then I believe that his passport would not have been held and he would not have been listed as a "flight risk".

 

I find it quite interesting what people interpret into incomplete information they have thinking that the way how they see things is the only way it can be.

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On 10/30/2020 at 3:58 AM, zappalot said:

 

This is certainly utmost and dangerous nonsense to say. Do not listen to people spreading such wrong information.

 

I joined fire awareness days / fire drill days here in Thailand and they let the residents who joined handle the fire hoses to make sure they understand how to use them in case of a fire. They do not say: ”Do not use them and wait for us to show up”. The opposite is the case , they encourage people to use firefighting equipment quickly and with confidence.

If you find any fire cabinet locked inform the district office and if they do not care inform the Bangkok Metropolitan authority. They make sure that no fire cabinet will be locked.

 

According to the government inspector there must be sufficient pressure as soon as someone start to use the fire hoses. So it is also nonsense to say that they will be pressurized when needed by the brigade.

 

 

 

There is no reason to waste anytime in case of a fire. Try confidently with the fire extinguisher. and if you have help order another one to roll out the fire hose.

 

 

 

A fire with some food and oxygen next to it will get out of control after one or two minutes. Never forget that. After not later than two minutes you better run away if you not want to risk being killed from smoke poisoning.

 

I'm not a fireman but one of the qualifications for my job is to hold an " advanced  marine firefighting" certificate and do weekly drills with hoses and extinguishers. 

 

The training involved going into a burning building and a mock ship to extinguish fires. The amount of heat and smoke is astonishing (I know, it's a fire 5555). There is very little time before a person without protective gear would be overwhelmed.  If ever you find yourself running out the hose make sure that you have a clear avenue of escape before turning on the water. The first, and most important thing to do is raise the alarm.

Fire safety in Thailand is truly dismal. From open stairwells to nightclubs with the fire exits chained shut, the country has a lot of catching up to do

 

If I owned or rented a condo in Thailand I'd want people like zappalot on the board.

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On 10/28/2020 at 6:53 PM, zappalot said:

thx so much, that helped me a lot...

It is IMHO essential for your pal to impress upon his lawyer that under no circumstances should his permission to stay be allowed to expire while his passport is held by the court. Otherwise he could find himself in an overstay situation - and, hence, deep, deep, deep, deep doo-dah - when it is eventually released.

 

As I see things, he is currently eligible for extensions of up to 90 days "in the case of litigation and court proceedings" under para 2.26 of Police Order 138/2557. According to said Police Order, each application for such an extension should be accompanied by:-

 

1. A completed TM7 form

2. A copy of your pal's passport

3. Confirmation letter from an inquiry official involved with the case, official paper or document confirming that your pal is being involved with the litigation or court proceedings of the case

 

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On 10/30/2020 at 1:12 PM, chilly07 said:

These hoses are there for the Brigade to fight fires and will be pressurised when needed by the Brigade! Individuals without professional experience should not interfere with them that's why they should be locked. Non professional lay public can at the most check that they are aware of the means of escape routes and in case of fire evacuate as fast as possible not using lifts. Lay public should not attempt to fight fires!

 

Reasonable stance. However, nobody can use equipment that is not there, as was part of the issue here.

Then, besides lawsuits against the property owner for property losses, there could be suits for negligent loss of life.

 

In short, it is somebody's duty to ensure that proper equipment is available in case of a fire, and proper alarm equipment to announce a threat. If the property owner doesn't step up to that voluntarily, then they must be forced to do so by any legitimate means, including opening a panel if that's what it takes to bring attention to the issue.

 

I wouldn't hesitate to honk my horn in the parking lot at 4am thereby disturbing the peace if that's what it took to alert sleeping people to a possible lethal threat.

 

 

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On 11/1/2020 at 11:10 AM, peeglen said:

I'm not a fireman but one of the qualifications for my job is to hold an " advanced  marine firefighting" certificate and do weekly drills with hoses and extinguishers. 

 

The training involved going into a burning building and a mock ship to extinguish fires. The amount of heat and smoke is astonishing (I know, it's a fire 5555). There is very little time before a person without protective gear would be overwhelmed.  If ever you find yourself running out the hose make sure that you have a clear avenue of escape before turning on the water. The first, and most important thing to do is raise the alarm.

Fire safety in Thailand is truly dismal. From open stairwells to nightclubs with the fire exits chained shut, the country has a lot of catching up to do

 

If I owned or rented a condo in Thailand I'd want people like zappalot on the board.

I just renewed my stcw advanced firefighting this year. In addition to this, i have had a number of courses for offshore and onshore firefighting in various parts of the world. One thing you learn i all of them is: If possible, try to extinguish the fire as soon as possible by any means. One should never be afraid to use safety equipment if it has a chance of eliminating the situation. Firefighter or not.

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  • 2 months later...
7 hours ago, zappalot said:

Just to keep everyone updated: as of now the court case is officially dismissed and the passport is back where it should be, in the hands of the wrongfully accused…

 

Thanks for coming back and letting everyone know how it went.

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9 hours ago, zappalot said:

Just to keep everyone updated: as of now the court case is officially dismissed and the passport is back where it should be, in the hands of the wrongfully accused…

 

 

Also, of importance - has the condo fixed their fire fighting equipment ?

 

Kudos to getting involved. More people like you are needed in every building. 

 

I’m sure there are fires that have killed people whereby if someone like you had raised issues people would be alive today. 

 

 

I have long wondered about the Condo sprinkler systems - how are they even tested?

Doesn’t rust build up and block the sprinkler ports? 

Are they always pressured with water? we never hear of them leaking.

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4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

I have long wondered about the Condo sprinkler systems - how are they even tested?

Doesn’t rust build up and block the sprinkler ports? 

Are they always pressured with water? we never hear of them leaking.

There are companies in Thailand that specialize in fire protection systems and can test sprinkler systems for condos to ensure that they comply with local codes and also other standards like the US's National Fire Protection Association code. They can also flush sprinkler systems to remove debris and rust that may build up over time.

 

A wet-pipe system as used in condos here is supposed to be charged with pressurized water at all times. Sprinkler systems most often leak due to something hitting a pipe or sprinkler head. It does happen in condos, but not very often. Most property insurance policies cover damage due to sprinkler leakage.

 

The key is the condo management and whether they contract a professional firm for proper fire protection system maintenance and training of condo management staff. I suspect that many condos do not do this and also turn off valves that should remain open. I've personally seen a new condo building built by a major developer where the protective plastic caps that are needed during installation of the sprinkler heads were not removed, thus rendering the sprinkler system non-functional.

 

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7 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Also, of importance - has the condo fixed their fire fighting equipment ?

No, they did not fix anything yet. My wife repeatedly showed up in person at the district office presenting evidence but was refused. They plainly said it's none of their business which is a blatant lie.

 

Then I had the idea to contact the Bangkok Metropolitan authority BMA. These guys have been very quick to show up without prior notice to the management. They pointed out all the problems I stated actually exist (and found even more) and would need to be fixed. This was end of July 2020.

When in December 2020 nothing happened yet, I mean absolutely nothing in regards of fixing the problems my wife contacted them again and they claimed to have forwarded the case to this useless district office. Which refuses to do anything.

Only the foreigners and two or three of the Thai Co owners demanding action. 90% of the  co-owners don't care.

End of story, the management/committee/JPM don't care, not the BMA and not the district office are doing anything to enforce safety. So far 0% progress...

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3 hours ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

that they comply with local codes and also other standards

To me it seems that there are no fines for violating any of these requirements. Probably similar to the problem that there are no fines to most of the regulations of the condominium act of Thailand, which is a law of the Kingdom of Thailand. Why would the management care about laws if no one can enforce these laws. Practically for example the condominium act is a useless piece of paper worth absolutely nothing. And so are probably regulations in regards of fire safety. Government inspectors can make a show within the building but there's nothing they can do to make sure the management is fixing problems. Paper tigers If you know what I mean…

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