THAI to auction off 34 aging aircraft

[GinBoy2]

1 hour ago, hotchilli said:

I'd wager my last shirt these aircraft are due for major checks, bought as is .... is not a good start.

Well major checks is probably an understatement.

 

The reason that major storage facilities are in Teurel Spain, Alice Springs and Victorville California in the middle of the Mojave desert is because humidity is the killer for any airframe parked up for any length of time. Without pressurization during flight corrosion sets in really fast

The aircraft get prepped by sealing all openings to prevent any ingress, then there are procedures to push them every month to ensure tires don't get flat spots, and electrical systems are powered up to try to preserve functionality.

 

Now I can't comment on the current storage state at U-Tapeo, but I always used to be amazed looking at the A340-500's when they were parked on the ramp at DMK. Yeah the engine intakes were filled with blanks, but I could never see any sealing of doors, windows, pitots AoA sensors or anything, and there most certainly wasn't wheel coverings on either main landing or nose gear wheels

 

As I said in a previous post, pretty sure after nearly a decade of being 'stored' in Thailand they at least are worth nothing more than the scrap metal value

[Thomas Hannah]

14 hours ago, billd766 said:

From Wikipedia 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_recycling

 

Each year, 400 to 450 aircraft are scrapped and disassembled globally, for a $2 billion market for aircraft parts, and 12,500 aircraft will reach their end-of-life in the 20 years after 2009. Of those, around one third are parted out and disassembled by members of the AFRA.[1] The AFRA is an international non-profit association aiming to promote environmental best practices, regulatory excellence and sustainable developments in the fields of aircraft disassembly, as well as the salvaging and recycling aircraft parts and materials.

I knew it was many.But i was replying to what i thought was a stupid comment.about thai airways selling aircraft.And someone said about turning them into diners.Thanks.But i do not need to look the link.I already know about recycling aircraft,And most now there are no parts worth keeping.Just total scrap.

[hotchilli]

10 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

Yeah the engine intakes were filled with blanks, but I could never see any sealing of doors, windows, pitots AoA sensors or anything, and there most certainly wasn't wheel coverings on either main landing or nose gear wheels

That's quite worrying, pitot heads, static plate, AoA's not protected is asking for trouble.

Although they've been grounded and not incurred flying hours I wonder how many normal power unit changes are needed, also a-b-c-3c-d-checks are due?

[SupermarineS6B]

Ha ha....... How are the billions of Chinese tourists going to get here ?     Oh i forgot, Thailand doesn't need an airline anymore now that it has a direct rail project from China to Thailand on the books.......  " One flew over the cuckoos nest "      Yep, and it won't be Thai.........

[SomchaiCNX]

11 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

Good job then that they are not trying to sell any.

They don't own them so they can not sell them. They are owned by the same company that leases them the A 350. Hence why the problem with them no 380 = no 350

 

[GinBoy2]

8 minutes ago, hotchilli said:

That's quite worrying, pitot heads, static plate, AoA's not protected is asking for trouble.

Although they've been grounded and not incurred flying hours I wonder how many normal power unit changes are needed, also a-b-c-3c-d-checks are due?

With TG, again, I certainly suspect that with all the list of aircraft they want to offload have been grounded for a while, and if the example of the A340-500's is a guide to how they store them, most of them will be in terrible shape.

 

So you would have to imagine that if they ever intended to sell them as functionally airworthy aircraft a D maintenance would be required and that alone costs a couple of million $.

 

Thats why I think that 'sold as is' phrase is included

Edited November 7, 2020 by GinBoy2

[GinBoy2]

19 minutes ago, SomchaiCNX said:

They don't own them so they can not sell them. They are owned by the same company that leases them the A 350. Hence why the problem with them no 380 = no 350

 

Not quite true. They lease the A-350, they own the A-380

 

Unlike many airlines like SQ who rather cannily negotiated a leaseback agreement directly, TG in usual form just bought the damn things

Edited November 7, 2020 by GinBoy2

[SomchaiCNX]

59 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

Not quite true. They lease the A-350, they own the A-380

 

Unlike many airlines like SQ who rather cannily negotiated a leaseback agreement directly, TG in usual form just bought the damn things

Got that from a pilot from TG. The routes the A380 flew were very popular and they would be very good for the routes to the US but than the CAAT should work very hard to get them up to FAA standards. That's the reason why TG does not fly to the US, they are not allowed. If I'm not mistaken that was one of the tasks of the new CAAT and reason to change the name from DCA. 

[SomchaiCNX]

1 hour ago, GinBoy2 said:

With TG, again, I certainly suspect that with all the list of aircraft they want to offload have been grounded for a while, and if the example of the A340-500's is a guide to how they store them, most of them will be in terrible shape.

 

So you would have to imagine that if they ever intended to sell them as functionally airworthy aircraft a D maintenance would be required and that alone costs a couple of million $.

 

Thats why I think that 'sold as is' phrase is included

Correct, in my opinion it has all to do with the short term thinking of a typically Thai mind and saving money (Chinese mind) on maintenance. After 30 years I still have to meet a Thai who thinks ahead or understands that maintenance and regular service of the bicycle, motor bike, car, house, condo etc, is cheaper in the long run. So why it would be different with airplanes especially when they are not used anymore. ????

[SomchaiCNX]

1 hour ago, GinBoy2 said:

Not quite true. They lease the A-350, they own the A-380

 

Unlike many airlines like SQ who rather cannily negotiated a leaseback agreement directly, TG in usual form just bought the damn things

The buying thing has also to do with the old mindset. Probably  also with the brown envelope kick back culture. They are mostly ordered way in advance and by the time they are delivered the guys who ordered them are probably not in charge anymore.  

[Rubble]

Interesting story in Flight Global about the way THAI are treating lessors contemptuosly and demanded they submit new discount deal for them by 4/11. Full story from the 16 lessors side. They have 41 aircraft out on lease. I read somewhere where the THAI debt has risen to 340 billion baht.

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/lessors-submit-proposals-to-thai-airways-reluctantly/140993.article

[cheshiremusicman]

23 hours ago, Dustdevil said:

Nobody wants an A380, I can pretty much predict that.

Great shame, as I  personally thought it was the best aircraft I have ever had the pleasure to fly on - both economy and business class.

[josephbloggs]

1 hour ago, cheshiremusicman said:

Great shame, as I  personally thought it was the best aircraft I have ever had the pleasure to fly on - both economy and business class.

Agreed.  This is pre-Covid but it was a really interesting interview with Sir Tim Clark on why it was a success for Emirates and could/should have been for other airlines:

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/emirates-tim-clark-slams-airlines-poor-use-a380/

[Huckenfell]

On 11/6/2020 at 7:03 PM, SomchaiCNX said:

It happened under his watch, yes or yes? He criticized THAI in public and with the help of his family they introduced Air Asia in Thailand  (his family owned  51 % of the company, foreigner the other 49%). He also changed telecommunication laws to favor his family's business. Still you ignore all these well know facts. The air force bought 01 A 340 a couple years ago and it is also used to transport families of those who serve in the air force. The pilots are trained by Thai and serve a couple years with THAI before returning to the Airforce. They get their salary from the air force.

Is'nt Air Asia Malaysian owned ?

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed.

[mbenson]

Like the lease agreements it is trying to renegotiate, I saw that the TG created a short deadline (until 14/11?) for offers on these planes. That doesn't seem like the best way to unload them. Sort of feels like Thai hubris again? Like they are doing everybody a big favor by offering these aircraft.

[soi3eddie]

9 hours ago, mbenson said:

Like the lease agreements it is trying to renegotiate, I saw that the TG created a short deadline (until 14/11?) for offers on these planes. That doesn't seem like the best way to unload them. Sort of feels like Thai hubris again? Like they are doing everybody a big favor by offering these aircraft.

I thought time span was rather short. Why limit the opportunity to get a better price. In the real world something is only worth what the market will pay. A proper auction with say a 2 month international advertising period and easy access for inspections by buyers. Then an open auction or sealed final bids on a certain date with highest bidder buying the lots. Of course, under current circumstances, there is no realistic chance of any inspections due to quarantine. Therefore it would be highly unlikely any buyers will buy sight unseen or uninspected. Additionally, only a foreign entity is likely to buy as there is no market for these planes in Thailand. Can't see air Asia or Nok or Bangkok Airways wanting them. The condition of the airframes and systems must be terrible due to poor storage conditions in Thailand. A film by Sam Chui of how to properly store planes is here 

 

[Rubble]

10 hours ago, mbenson said:

Like the lease agreements it is trying to renegotiate, I saw that the TG created a short deadline (until 14/11?) for offers on these planes. That doesn't seem like the best way to unload them. Sort of feels like Thai hubris again? Like they are doing everybody a big favor by offering these aircraft.

Quite the contrary. Desperation is setting in. They will have run out of cash by next month. What happens then? No money for fat cat execs, old airforce generals and those contracted to handle the Rehabilitation Plan. 

Interesting comments in this story under subheadings.....Corruption, Incompetence, Bureaucracy, Competition. 

https://viewfromthewing.com/thai-airways-expects-to-run-out-of-cash-next-month/

[soi3eddie]

9 minutes ago, Rubble said:

Quite the contrary. Desperation is setting in. They will have run out of cash by next month. What happens then? No money for fat cat execs, old airforce generals and those contracted to handle the Rehabilitation Plan. 

Interesting comments in this story under subheadings.....Corruption, Incompetence, Bureaucracy, Competition. 

https://viewfromthewing.com/thai-airways-expects-to-run-out-of-cash-next-month/

Government will bail them out as usual. Too much loss of face for the nation if Thai Airways cease to exist. Notice how I didn't say stop flying as their planes rarely fly anywhere these days except for Germany and Switzerland. 

[Grumpy John]

On 11/6/2020 at 7:12 PM, Reigntax said:

Would the entry be through the front or back door?

Both! ????

[GinBoy2]

3 hours ago, Rubble said:

Quite the contrary. Desperation is setting in. They will have run out of cash by next month. What happens then? No money for fat cat execs, old airforce generals and those contracted to handle the Rehabilitation Plan. 

Interesting comments in this story under subheadings.....Corruption, Incompetence, Bureaucracy, Competition. 

https://viewfromthewing.com/thai-airways-expects-to-run-out-of-cash-next-month/

Rather a good insightful article.

 

I'm not sure how I would rank those topics, but at least from it's operational fall, Corruption has to be #1 for me.

 

The fleet mix has always been a head scratcher for me, and the only way you can explain it is corruption with a side order of incompetence.

 

I remember back in the early 2000's I used to fly BKK-KKC on an A330, thinking to myself, what the Hell are they doing flying a widebody on a 40 minute domestic flight

[SomchaiCNX]

3 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

Rather a good insightful article.

 

I'm not sure how I would rank those topics, but at least from it's operational fall, Corruption has to be #1 for me.

 

The fleet mix has always been a head scratcher for me, and the only way you can explain it is corruption with a side order of incompetence.

 

I remember back in the early 2000's I used to fly BKK-KKC on an A330, thinking to myself, what the Hell are they doing flying a widebody on a 40 minute domestic flight

Similar with the 747 on the route BKK-CNX.

Yes that article is spot on. The competition came when Taksin and his family did bring in Air Asia. So corruption is the cause of competition as well.

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by SomchaiCNX

[GinBoy2]

11 minutes ago, SomchaiCNX said:

Similar with the 747 on the route BKK-CNX.

 

It's interesting to aviation nerds like me, how they tried overcome this insanity.

 

So as I recall Thai Smile, which never gets mentioned in all this nightmare, was introduced to 'compete' with the LCC's.

And true it brought a more rational flight schedule to compete with the ever growing domestic challenge.

 

But i'm thinking back and i'm too lazy to look up the year it was forecast to make a profit within two years. Trouble is when you read TG financial statements, they never break it out, it's always a consolidated 'Thai Airways International Public Company Limited and its Subsidiaries'.

 

I strongly suspect therefore that the cost structure of WE, while maybe not having the structural debt problems, has operational expense in line with Momma TG!

[uncle_tom]

Over 20 years ago now, a friend of mine bought what I think was the first B747 to be scrapped by BA. They wanted the engines as spares, so rather than sell the whole plane to a banana republic, they landed it at an airfield in Leicestershire, took off the engines and sold him the rest as scrap for a very modest sum.

 

Being an aero engineer, he knew which parts could be sold on the second hand market, so after removing them he had the rest of hull broken for scrap metal - but one bit remains, which I believe is still in the back of his garage.

 

Being a first generation 747, it had a rudder counterweight made of depleted uranium, and there isn't much of a market for it..!

[VBF]

On 11/7/2020 at 9:15 AM, josephbloggs said:

Agreed.  This is pre-Covid but it was a really interesting interview with Sir Tim Clark on why it was a success for Emirates and could/should have been for other airlines:

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/emirates-tim-clark-slams-airlines-poor-use-a380/

That's excellent - thanks for posting. IMO Emirates is THE airline to use as a benchmark and further IMO are amongst the first to be coming out of the Covid restrictions. Every time a country opens up, there they are, ready to go. I so hope they continue.

And, no, I'm not a shareholder, just a hitherto happy customer.

 

As for Thai...I used to be a member of the Star Alliance, flying UK-Thailand regularly  and received and used airmiles which i frequently used to travel between BKK and HKT. Now, they'd be down there with BA as my choice of airline. ????

[VBF]

14 hours ago, uncle_tom said:

Being a first generation 747, it had a rudder counterweight made of depleted uranium, and there isn't much of a market for it..!

When I read that, I thought, "No, can't be true".....scarily it appears it is!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium          and          https://www.gov.uk/guidance/depleted-uranium-du-general-information-and-toxicology

 

Both refer to counterbalance or counterweights in aircraft.

 

If the information in there is correct, there actually MAY be a market for it, but not one which should be encouraged!

Edited November 9, 2020 by VBF

[VBF]

3 hours ago, VBF said:

That's excellent - thanks for posting. IMO Emirates is THE airline to use as a benchmark and further IMO are amongst the first to be coming out of the Covid restrictions. Every time a country opens up, there they are, ready to go. I so hope they continue.

And, no, I'm not a shareholder, just a hitherto happy customer.

 

As for Thai...I used to be a member of the Star Alliance, flying UK-Thailand regularly  and received and used airmiles which i frequently used to travel between BKK and HKT. Now, they'd be down there with BA as my choice of airline. ????

Too late to edit my post, but I found this article on Emirates sort of demonstrates my point.....

https://simpleflying.com/emirates-covid-19-adaptation/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=daily&utm_campaign=08112020

[Mr Meeseeks]

19 hours ago, uncle_tom said:

Over 20 years ago now, a friend of mine bought what I think was the first B747 to be scrapped by BA. They wanted the engines as spares, so rather than sell the whole plane to a banana republic, they landed it at an airfield in Leicestershire, took off the engines and sold him the rest as scrap for a very modest sum.

 

Being an aero engineer, he knew which parts could be sold on the second hand market, so after removing them he had the rest of hull broken for scrap metal - but one bit remains, which I believe is still in the back of his garage.

 

Being a first generation 747, it had a rudder counterweight made of depleted uranium, and there isn't much of a market for it..!

I will sell one of my five wives for this uranium. I may even part with one of my goats.

 

Name his price.

 

Allah U Akbar.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Mr Meeseeks

[GinBoy2]

1 hour ago, VBF said:

Too late to edit my post, but I found this article on Emirates sort of demonstrates my point.....

https://simpleflying.com/emirates-covid-19-adaptation/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=daily&utm_campaign=08112020

Well EK is an interesting case study

 

It, like TG is not a real commercial enterprise, but unlike TG it's backed with unlimited oil money.

 

They invested heavily in the hub and spoke model, and given their position in the world kinda makes sense.

 

But as twin engine ETOPS have really accelerated point to point options, it's gonna be a tough one.

 

Granted airports like LHR which are severely slot resisted maybe makes some commercial sense, for the vast majority for airline travel it's just nuts.

 

EK can basically weather whatever storm hits them by virtue of their sugar Daddy

 

[Dustdevil]

On 11/7/2020 at 12:30 AM, cheshiremusicman said:

Great shame, as I  personally thought it was the best aircraft I have ever had the pleasure to fly on - both economy and business class.

Great if you don't mind (a) boarding with 550-650 other passengers. (b) just flying to major hubs instead of direct flights in the event the hub isn't your final destination (c) that dozens of airports had to spend a lot of money to accommodate the behemoth (unlike the trusty old 747) (d) that, if you're from Europe, your tax money went to yet another prestige project only marginally more sensible than the Concorde.