ghengis Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 What is the sound of one hand clapping? Pure consciousness is something beyond the mind. It exists by itself and can experience itself without the need for thought. It is like the sound of one hand clapping. The presence of pure consciousness in an enlightened person is a state of duality - two experiences of consciousness in one, with the pure consciousness witnessing the waking (thinking), dreaming and sleeping states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeniap Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 One would have to view the feeling of duality as being aware of concepts - aware of things being 'this' and of otherthings being being 'that'. This mental state is above pure oneness - the feeling of enlightenment - the realisation that universe and self is unconnected. Duality is the basis of all western philosopy, enlightenment is the experiment of eastern minds to forget conceptual language and return to unsymbolised impulse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darknight Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 We come from the unknown and we go on moving into the unknown. We will come again; we have been here thousands of times, and we will be here thousands of times. Our essential being is immortal but our body, our embodiment, is mortal. Our frame in which we are, our houses, the body, the mind, they are made of material things. They will get tired, they will get old, they will die. But your consciousness, for which Bodhidharma uses the word 'no-mind'--Gautam Buddha has also used the word 'no-mind'--is something beyond body and mind, something beyond everything; that no-mind is eternal. It comes into expression, and goes again into the unknown. This movement from the unknown to the known, and from the known to the unknown, continues for eternity, unless somebody becomes enlightened. Then that is his last life; then this flower will not come back again. This flower that has become aware of itself need not come back to life because life is nothing but a school in which to learn. He has learned the lesson, he is now beyond delusions. He will move from the known for the first time not into the unknown, but into the unknowable. The Master in Zen is not a master over others, but a master of himself --and this self-mastery is reflected in his every gesture and his every word. He is not a teacher with a doctrine to impart, nor a supernatural messenger with a direct line to God, but simply one who has become a living example of the highest potential that lies within each and every human being. In the eyes of the Master, a disciple finds his own truth reflected. In the silence of the Master's presence, the disciple can fall more easily into the silence of his own being. The community of seekers that arises around a Master becomes an energy field that supports each unique individual in finding his or her own inner light. Once that light is found, the disciple comes to understand that the outer Master was just a catalyst, a device to provoke the awakening of the inner. Beyond mind, there is an awareness that is intrinsic, that is not given to you by the outside, and is not an idea -- and there is no experiment up to now that has found any center in the brain which corresponds to awareness. The whole work of meditation is to make you aware of all that is "mind" and disidentify yourself from it. That very separation is the greatest revolution that can happen to man. Now you can do and act on only that which makes you more joyous, fulfills you, gives you contentment, makes your life a work of art, a beauty. But this is possible only if the master in you is awake. Right now the master is fast asleep. And the mind, the servant, is playing the role of master. And the servant is created by the outside world, it follows the outside world and its laws. Once your awareness becomes a flame, it burns up the whole slavery that the mind has created. There is no blissfulness more precious than freedom, than being a master of your own destiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwiz117 Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 In simple terms "Enlightenment" is a state of Mind. It's nothing to do with Buddhism. Following the middle path is a way towards attaining it. No one can say it's the one and only way. For example, Lord Buddha first followed the two extreme paths and realized that it is not the way to seek what he is looking for. But even today, some believe that they can attain enlightenment by following the extreme path. Ex: "Sadhus" in India does this even today. If you can meditate for a long period of time, you will be able to experience passing of different states of your mind. I can not exactly remember all stages of mind. But the highest stage a person attained (recorded) was by Lord Buddha and the term used to describe that state of mind is called 'Enlightenment'. For example, this is similar to the state of mind of a "hyproticed" person. (wrong spelling) Some say that such a person will be able to get certain spiritual powers by developing the mind into this stage. For example, even today you will be able to see light of rings around the head of Lord Buddha in temples. All these things are similar to the stories in Bible and how various writers have interpreted it time to time. So the best way to prove these things is to try to meditate and experience it. For me, I did meditation when I was young for over 10 Hrs. But now, I can not do it even for 5 minutes. The main thing I got by doing meditation is the ability to memorise things in very quick time. Now that is where the difficulty is. By meditating, a person can achieve many self centered and material benefits. That is why it stops after a certain stage and non of us were able to see thru different states of our mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OxfordWill Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Duality is the basis of all western philosopy. That's a fairly big thing to say without giving any reason for saying it. I'm interested to hear why you say it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stroll Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Please comment further, Oxwill, input much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anono555 Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 hmmm. there is some very philosophical and very interesting stuff here... just interested to know if anyone here has ever taken LSD... and what you thought about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stroll Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 I am glad we have something to talk about , rob, pm me for details. First, I should say LSD is not the path to enlightenment, but it might give you glimpses of 'other realities', sorry if I am stating the obvious. I am not up to date on it, but 20 years ago I had afew trips which (amongst other things) got me into a space where patterns appeared like a mandala, and they kept changing as I tried to penetrate beyond to find a place of stillness. It was, as they said at the time, 'too much' and I stopped experimenting with it. There is no 'shortcut', but once I had the experience, it stuck with me, there is a lot more to life and death than we realise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anono555 Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 from my experiences i would say that acid gives you a true vision of the world as it REALLY is without any of the normal human beliefs or preconceptions 'getting in the way'. is this Enlightenment??? Who knows, but i notice a lot of the things that have been mentioned above are very closely related to an LSD experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stroll Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 (edited) Who am I to say (not referring to your message to me before ) but it might seem so. But the 'other realities' are not necesssarily more enlightened than our 'normal' reality, just different versions of illusions, they seem to enlighten you, because you don't normally see them. This is valuable because it makes your everyday reality relative, but I argue it is not more than that. Edited June 23, 2004 by stroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghengis Posted June 23, 2004 Author Share Posted June 23, 2004 In simple terms "Enlightenment" is a state of Mind. Some would say pure consciousness is beyond the mind. The mind is concerned with thought. Buddha taught to go beyond thought. But your consciousness, for which Bodhidharma uses the word 'no-mind'--Gautam Buddha has also used the word 'no-mind'--is something beyond body and mind, something beyond everything; that no-mind is eternal. Drugs like LSD give an 'altered state of mind'. This is not englightenment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anono555 Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 who are you to say what is enlightenment and what is not??? drugs produce altered states of mind but so does meditation and so does hypnosis... what is the difference then? perhaps they could just be different ways of achieving the same thing...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stroll Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Well, that is what I thought 20 years ago, but I know better now. I don't mean to be patronising, rob, it is just what I found out for myself, I leave it to ghengis to argue his point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anono555 Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 stroll, do you try to be a dick on purpose or does it just come naturally? are you now trying to tell me you know more about the human mind than anybody else??? last time i checked there is nobody on the planet who can look inside someone's head and see what they are thinking. i was looking for some interesting opinions or experiences on this subject... if you haven't got anything of any value to post then just go away, get off your computer and find some friends you sad, lonely old git. NOBODY IS INTERESTED in your opinion about anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyinkat Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Whatever 'enlightenment' is in theory in practice it is a state of mind that manifests itself as skilful wisdom and compassion. Therefore IMO it is quite self-evident which poster lacks any appropriate insight to comment on the matter. Maybe someone would like to start up another thread in another forum for dopeheads to share their experiences - that way we can all avoid it and focus on a serious question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghengis Posted June 23, 2004 Author Share Posted June 23, 2004 I think we should keep the tone of the conversation on a more spiritual level. Losing your cool means that you have lost the argument. who are you to say what is enlightenment and what is not??? The 'everlasting state' of 'Nirvana' is described in many places. How can someone intellectually understand a concept of something so abstract? It is a big like asking a scientist 'what existed before the Big Bang?'. The answer is that it exists on a different level. Infinity is difficult concept for people who measure everything in 4 dimensions of space and time. The concept of Nirvana is that of a level of consciousness which is infinite - which is beyond our dimensions of space and time - which is beyond the thought process and our sensory perceptions. The mind does not experience it. It experiences itself - hence the term Self Realisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyinkat Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Actually, I spent some 12 years teaching and lecturing on the question 'What is the nature of enlightenment'. Then I finally jacked in the wold of academia and took myself off to a monastery. One day I was with my good friend who was a monk when our teacher walked by. "Lama", began my friend, "What is enlightenment?" Our teacher roared with laughter before finally replying. "It doesn't matter" he said. Finally, I began to understand what I'd been teaching all those years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OxfordWill Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Andy, Where is your signature quotation from? Which monastery, if you don't mind me asking, and specifically what did you lecture on (and was it at university or elsewhere?). Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anono555 Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 WOW! surely we should all feel truly privileged to be in the company of such highly advanced thinking and superior intellect... what a bunch of know-it-all <deleted> you all are... ‘andyinkat’if you took your pompous head out of your pompous backside for one minute you might have the chance to discuss and maybe even learn something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darknight Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 from my experiences i would say that acid gives you a true vision of the world as it REALLY is without any of the normal human beliefs or preconceptions 'getting in the way'. is this Enlightenment??? Who knows, but i notice a lot of the things that have been mentioned above are very closely related to an LSD experience Hi rob, Lsd is not enlightenment as such but as stroll said it indeed can open certain channels of your being. Surely it will give you the experiences of alternating reality and "open your eyes" so to speak. For me their could be a possibility of having a glimpse of enlightenment through lsd but you can not sustain it as your body is very quickly exhausted From these Higher energy's.Also the mind still plays a big role in a trip as you will see or experience what you think. That's why you can have "bad trips" as you think of something you will see it and it will agrevate your thinking, thus leading into more and more "bad things happening". Your EGO also remains very much alive in these experiences and works hard to counterbalance. After a while you will actually "flip over" to a very animal like state as your energy comes down. Only the long and sometimes painstaking process of meditation is able to prepare and transfer your body to continous experience of other "realities". This way you can still be centered. But indeed several types of drugs can open some channels or experiences which come very close to what somebody could call "religious" experiences. Be aware that " REALITY IS DETERMINED BY YOUR FOCUS". Not only whith drugs but in" Real life" as well. Whatever 'enlightenment' is in theory in practice it is a state of mind that manifests itself as skilful wisdom and compassion.Therefore IMO it is quite self-evident which poster lacks any appropriate insight to comment on the matter. Maybe someone would like to start up another thread in another forum for dopeheads to share their experiences - that way we can all avoid it and focus on a serious question. Now isn't that an Arrogant and "EGO" answer from a 12 years experienced Theacher of Enlightenment Actually, I spent some 12 years teaching and lecturing on the question 'What is the nature of enlightenment'. Then I finally jacked in the wold of academia and took myself off to a monastery. One day I was with my good friend who was a monk when our teacher walked by."Lama", began my friend, "What is enlightenment?" Our teacher roared with laughter before finally replying. "It doesn't matter" he said. Finally, I began to understand what I'd been teaching all those years. Think you still haven't understood your "TEACHER" andy Maybe you should move beyond your "Mind".... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA roaring with laughter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anono555 Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 thank goodness for that, finally an intelligent and INTERESTING post from somebody... thankyou for your views Darknight - definite food for thought there you see folks, that is the sort of considered and grown up discussion we are looking for, not the typical ‘i am right, you are wrong’ bullshit you other lot are coming out with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darknight Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 copied it from the quotes section. Meditate on this Andy.... No hard feelings though , sorry missing a kindship smiley Buddhas don’t save buddhas. If you use your mind to look for a buddha, you won’t see the buddha. As long as you look for a buddha somewhere else, you’ll never see that your own being is the buddha. And don’t use a buddha to worship a buddha. And don’t use the mind to invoke a buddha. Buddhas don’t recite sutras. Buddhas don’t keep precepts. And buddhas don’t break precepts. Buddhas don’t keep or break anything. Buddhas don’t do good or evil. - Bodhidharma (d. 533) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darknight Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 just a quickie, Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water. - Dogen (1200-1253) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stroll Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 I am obviously not a Buddha. Rob just is a wind up, one tries to have a conversation with him, even after he sent me hate mail, and what is the response? "what a bunch of know-it-all <deleted> you all are..." ###########, lad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anono555 Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 not you again???? don't you get it 'stroll'? nobody gives a hoot what you think... now get lost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stroll Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 No, not yet. But I knew I made a mistake as soon as I posted it. It won't get any better. I am off now, Sir teeniebopper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabaijai Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 I've found the Zen perspective interesting. All the images of moon, and water, etc. As Alan Watts once pointed out, most of us choose religion based on what's mandated by our parents. Of those that have chosen on their own, most go with aesthetic choice, ie, what feels nice or looks artistic. Few ever go beyond the images. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anono555 Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 hehe... what would you rather be 'stroll'... a boy? or a lonely, miserable, bitter and twisted sad old git who spends far too much time on their computer? listen, Thailand's a wonderful place with great people, why don't you go out and make a few friends and try to enjoy yourself a bit and stop pestering everybody... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyinkat Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Oxford Will - PM or e-mail me if you want to know my Dharma background. Ironically I don't feel that this is an appropriate forum for a worthwhile exchange of ideas and knowledge about Buddhism. I nicked the quote the other day but I don't remember exactly where - probably from somewhere within the Lonely Planet Thorn Tree. I'm moving to a town on the border with Laos amongst ethnic Laotians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OxfordWill Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 WOW! surely we should all feel truly privileged to be in the company of such highly advanced thinking and superior intellect...what a bunch of know-it-all <deleted> you all are... 'andyinkat'if you took your pompous head out of your pompous backside for one minute you might have the chance to discuss and maybe even learn something... I think you are suffering from a bad case of feelings of inadequecy. Immature way of showing it, too. Kindly keep your rudeness to yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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